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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 28 46.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 26.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-23, 13:35   Link #41
'Pryde
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Im rooting for Yakomaru. Why should they be treated like animals when they are equally intelligent? I would be mad too. Brilliant plan
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Old 2013-02-23, 13:42   Link #42
sikvod00
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^So how do you feel about Yakomaru's plan to essentially turn human infants into weapon? Aren't they being treated like animals too? I personally don't feel either group is worth "rooting" for, but there are individuals I sympathize with and want to survive.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:03   Link #43
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Man the look of despair on Saki's face when she realized what Squealer's true motives behind the attacks says it all...
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:03   Link #44
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
There's no easy solution here. You can't let a few have no death feedback because it naturally will make those different from the others and eventually feared with the potential for abuse as well (see how Tomiko, just by being that old holds so much power).

Furthermore, the attack power of humans is so great that if just one went rogue, it'd be trivial to suddenly blow away the other no-feedbacks before they know it.


If anything, the system they had in place, even if it were cruel, actually worked and never failed on its own. It was a third party after all that created this "fiend".
The problem with any system that focuses and dedicates itself on containing internal threats is that it impedes its ability to respond to external ones. This society thought its only threat was from its own people and rarely gave a thought to those outside of the system such as the monster rats.

The problem now is regardless of who wins, the cat is out of the proverbal bag. Even if the fiend is somehow killed and the monster rat population of Japan wiped out, there is always a chance a few monster rats could escape with a child or two to start over elsewhere. As a backup, he might have spread the knowledge of how to subvert and train a fiend to other colonies; the knowledge that they managed to do so in the first place may be enough to start similar attempts elsewhere.

Even if word gets out all over the world, it will take time because of their enforced technological stagnation and many will underestimate the threat as well. For the monster rats, the rebellion is proof that they can rebel against their "gods" with a chance of winning. I believe Yakomaru didn't just destroy the system in the 66 district, he rendered it completely unfeasible in the long term. In the event the humans win, they either have to change their entire system with the rats or exterminate every single monster rat on the planet.

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Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
^So how do you feel about Yakomaru's plan to essentially turn human infants into weapon? Aren't they being treated like animals too? I personally don't feel either group is worth "rooting" for, but there are individuals I sympathize with and want to survive.
When you are a "mortal" and the fate of your entire species is on the line in a war against the "gods", morality would be the least of your considerations.

Last edited by LystAP; 2013-02-23 at 14:14.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:23   Link #45
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Actually, I fail to see her fault in this altogether. She was driven to take the decision to leave the village because of circumstances created by the higher ups in the village. In fact if Mamoru's execution had been clean and not turned into such a mess, this would not have happened. The Board of Education's hasty decision to off Mamoru and the consequent inefficiency with which it was executed can be blamed as being the reason behind this massacre.
But you are missing the key point. Yes it's true that the attempted execution of Mamoru was what started this whole thing in motion but

1) If Mamoru had been executed this would not have happened
2) If Mamoru had not been executed but ran away on his own this would not have happened.

So Saki is right that essentially Maria's noble decision to go with Mamoru is what caused this mess. Mamoru could not of had a child without Maria, Maria is really the key here.

Of course the larger problem is certainly the way the humans saw and treated the monster rats. They had a system for themselves but never realized an outside thread could overtake their power. It was just unthinkable to them so they never prepared for it.

I am definitely not rooting for Yakomaru, but I don't know how I think this story should end. I don't think the humans should win but I don't think the monster rats deserve to win either. And yes the monster rats do remind me of humans, but not necessarily in a good way.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:24   Link #46
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Death feedback is genetically encoded in their DNA.
I think the death feedback is mental and genetic. Otherwise there's no other way for the stimulus to reach the biological mechanisms of death. Remember in episode 20, around 14:56, the random guy told Saki that

Quote:
"It wasn't just the people mistaken for false humans who died. The ones who attacked them died, too."
The false humans that were mentioned were killed with no problem, likely because after they fired their guns, the people knew they were fake and it didn't trigger death feedback. But the real human that the woman accidentally killed at first didn't trigger death feedback, assuming that what others have said about "instant death feedback" is true. Only after the guy died did the woman realize he was real, and death feedback kicked in afterwards. If the process could distinguish between human and fake beyond the user's knowledge, it would've killed her earlier.

So with that mental route established, it's not unexpected if the Temple of Purity guys could use hypnosis for something else, since we've seen they have the power to even make people forget how to use cantus. If they could alter someone's perception of fiends as inhuman, it could work as a temporary measure.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:28   Link #47
ChronoReverse
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I wonder which generation created the queerats in the first place. Whether it's current self-neutering society, the dictatorship society before this one, the "modern" one which started everything (when people started to develop cantus) or whether it was cantus "leakage" that cause it.


I think one reason I have very little sympathy for the queerats is because they were doing a great job at stealing each others young and constantly warring among themselves killing each other already (one of the reasons why the humans looked down on them). The way they were presented early on (plus making them look ugly in the first place) was clearly intended to place that mental effect on the viewer =/

If there's a twist later to make them sympathetic then fine but I think they did too good a job at making them not actually very sympathetic.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:32   Link #48
Kirarakim
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I wonder which generation created the queerats in the first place. Whether it's current self-neutering society, the dictatorship society before this one or the "modern" one which started everything (when people started to develop cantus).
I personally still believe the rats are the human groups who never developed PK (the ones that were unaccounted for).

If they were created I believe it was the scientist group.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:34   Link #49
ChronoReverse
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I personally still believe the rats are the human groups who never developed PK (the ones that were unaccounted for).

If they were created I believe it was the scientist group.
That brings up the question of what happened to the scientist group. They created this society and its self-checks but where did they go? Did they implement everything on the survivors of the dictator era as well as themselves? Why did they seem to disband after that?

It does seem like a possibility that it's the non-PK humans. I had thought the scientist group was fairly enlightened, what sick reason could they have to convert a HUGE part of the population to that? Ugh.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:43   Link #50
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But you are missing the key point. Yes it's true that the attempted execution of Mamoru was what started this whole thing in motion but

1) If Mamoru had been executed this would not have happened
2) If Mamoru had not been executed but ran away on his own this would not have happened.

So Saki is right that essentially Maria's noble decision to go with Mamoru is what caused this mess. Mamoru could not of had a child without Maria, Maria is really the key here.
But he did run away on his own. The point is the elders screwed up in one execution and it cost them dearly. The moment Mamoru ran away, Saki and the others were gonna search for him. Tomiko's decision to give leeway to the members of Saki's group from memory whitewash backfired on them. They should have wiped off the other's memories of Mamoru before going after him. In that way even if they failed to kill him, no one would have gone looking for him when he got away.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:43   Link #51
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[snip]
When you are a "mortal" and the fate of your entire species is on the line in a war against the "gods", morality would be the least of your considerations.
That's precisely what the queerats believe, and I greatly disagree with it. Before the war, the queerats lives were not necessarily at stake, but their treatment was certainly unjust. So they have every right--"right" meaning the moral backing--to a rebel against the humans to gain their freedom. That may mean the death of some innocents, which is typical of wars, even "good" ones. But they came to the extreme conclusion that the only way to achieve that is to wipe out the entire human race (which I find debatable). I can't condom such an act, even it's from an oppressed group.

Perhaps that's one of the underlying themes of this bleak story: If you have to do such monstrous acts and throw all morality out of the window in order to survive, is it really worth it? Just look at how humans treat children who show even the slightest signs of threatening them.
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Old 2013-02-23, 14:47   Link #52
Kirarakim
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It does seem like a possibility that it's the non-PK humans. I had thought the scientist group was fairly enlightened, what sick reason could they have to convert a HUGE part of the population to that? Ugh.
That I have no theory on but I just thought the monster rats acted very much like humanity from the beginning (and I don't just mean that they were intelligent). Of course part of it was because they found a false minoshiro but the way they advanced, their weapon development...reminds me of the advancement of humans, sort of like in a deja-vu sense.

But more importantly it always stood out to me that Shun asked the false minoshiro what happened to the non-PK humans and the false mino had no answer for him. Why bring that up in the story if the audience was not supposed to think about it?


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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
But he did run away on his own. The point is the elders screwed up in one execution and it cost them dearly. The moment Mamoru ran away, Saki and the others were gonna search for him. Tomiko's decision to give leeway to the members of Saki's group from memory whitewash backfired on them. They should have wiped off the other's memories of Mamoru before going after him. In that way even if they failed to kill him, no one would have gone looking for him when he got away.
Once again the key is still Maria not Mamoru. Many things could have happened differently but that still would not have lead to the fiend being born, only Maria's decision to leave with Mamoru ultimately made it possible.

Also Maria's decision was a key point of the episode, we have that long letter from Maria to Saki explaining why she left. The letter wasn't just because Maria & Saki were so close (although that was part of it) it was in some ways to show the significance of Maria's decision. CR is not working right now but I recall Maria even saying we will go far away and not bother anyone, but do you think Maria ever realized something like this would happen?

I am not saying the destruction of the village is entirely the fault of Maria (that is completely unfair and untrue) and yes there are many factors involved but this is why this is such a beautiful tragedy, because it was Maria's noble decision that at least partially lead to this tragedy. Sometimes good intentions can lead to bad results.

edit: Also another thing to consider while the education committee botched up the job, their concern about Mamoru's mental state might not have been completely unfounded.
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Old 2013-02-23, 15:27   Link #53
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So that's why Yakomaru had the fiend attack the hospital first! What a devilish plan! He intends to raise an army of fiend to conquer the world. He has the queerats totally fooled with his talk of freedom and equality.
I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they were "totally fooled".

The Queerats really were treated as little more than cattle by the humans of this world. What that one Queerat said to Saki and Satoru in this episode was stated with sincerity, and there is some truth to what he said there. The Queerats really will escape the thumb of human control if they successfully win this war.

And even if Yakomaru's main goal is personal empowerment (which I myself am inclined to believe), what says he won't put into place a Queerat government where Queerats enjoy a degree of freedom and equality comparable to, say, WWII era Americans?

He can give them that, or something closely approximating it, and still maintain great personal power for the remainder of his life.


It's very dark and tragic what's happening to the humans of SSY, but in various ways, this perfect storm is of their own making.

Death Feedback was a horrible creation. Yes, the alternative would have been messy - Powerful superhumans fighting and killing amongst themselves from time-to-time - But that would be preferable to this absolute no win situation that the humans appear to have locked themselves in.

Someone like Shisei would have maintained law and order in a world without death feedback. But in this world, even he is apparently powerless against a fiend.


I love how Yakomaru has become this great, unseen conqueror from the human's perspective. His presence is felt in brutal military tactic after brutal military tactic, but he remains completely out of sight and out of grasp.

Should he appear "on camera" again before this is all said and done, that will likely have a certain "Oomph!" to it due to just how much his character has been built up while completely off camera these past few episodes.
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Old 2013-02-23, 15:45   Link #54
Kirarakim
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I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they were "totally fooled".
The Queerats really were treated as little more than cattle by the humans of this world. What that one Queerat said to Saki and Satoru in this episode was stated with sincerity, and there is some truth to what he said there. The Queerats really will escape the thumb of human control if they successfully win this war.
In this I agree with you. I do think Yakomaru who manipulated the humans is actually manipulating the monster rats too but he was only able to do this because he spoke truth too.

That being said I would be pretty disappointed if Yakomaru ends his days with great personal power. I think humanity as we see it will fall, but I believe Yakomaru actually deserves to fall too.
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Old 2013-02-23, 15:51   Link #55
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That's precisely what the queerats believe, and I greatly disagree with it. Before the war, the queerats lives were not necessarily at stake, but their treatment was certainly unjust. So they have every right--"right" meaning the moral backing--to a rebel against the humans to gain their freedom. That may mean the death of some innocents, which is typical of wars, even "good" ones. But they came to the extreme conclusion that the only way to achieve that is to wipe out the entire human race (which I find debatable). I can't condom such an act, even it's from an oppressed group.
But as Satoru points out to the queerat in the tunnel, if even one human is left alive that human can still wipe out the queerats. Once the queerats decided to rebel, their only choice was to kill every last Cantu user.
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Old 2013-02-23, 15:58   Link #56
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But as Satoru points out to the queerat in the tunnel, if even one human is left alive that human can still wipe out the queerats. Once the queerats decided to rebel, their only choice was to kill every last Cantu user.
But is that the only choice? I am not saying Satoru is right. Satoru and Saki are our main protagonist and I think we were shown that they are good & noble. And yet they have shown the same arrogance as the other humans. If anything that shows us even the best of us can be flawed.

However does there have to be a right side here. The monster rats cause may be just but are their actions? The monster rats never tried to prove to the humans that they were intelligent creatures, worthy of more respect in a peaceful way? No their way to prove this was to massacre the humans & to steal their children to create fiends. I am sorry to say but does that make them appear more worthy of respect?

I don't really see either side as in the right here & I would be surprised if both sides don't meet bad fates in the end.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:02   Link #57
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Being a cantus user means you have the potential to wipe out queerats, but not that you would. There are individuals like Saki who see queerats more as equals, at least compared to others. She would never consider doing that. That's why I said it was debatable to think this was their only choice. There may have been a chance to negotiate or create an alliance with sympathetic humans in order to gain their freedom. Who knows? Committing genocide by killing every single human who has the potential to use cantus, even in the name of freedom, is not something I sympathize with.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:06   Link #58
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What a diabolical plan. Dear god! It was hinted at so long ago... and so obvious. Brilliant writing.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:11   Link #59
Kirarakim
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Being a cantus user means you have the potential to wipe out queerats, but not that you would. There are individuals like Saki who see queerats more as equals, at least compared to others. She would never consider doing that.
I don't think Saki saw them as equals, but she was sympathetic to them. I recall Saki saying to Satoru but they are just animals, they think differently from us.

I do think Saki thought of the monster rats as lesser creatures, but not ones that should be treated cruelly.

I suppose you can say Saki might have treated them better than other humans, but there was still a bit of arrogance in her thinking.

But I do agree with your larger point about the monster rats not being in the right here either.

On another note if I had to pick two stories this reminds me most of is a mixture of Planet of the Apes & The Birds
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:13   Link #60
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OK, I am having a hard time reconciling the "aki-child" with what the story has said about fiends. Is this child really a fiend?


The fiends, so far, have been presented as uncontrollable and killing everyone in their path. Yet, this child seems to be influenced by its queer rat handler. Are we suppose to accept that the queer rats have figured out how to control a fiend after a dozen years? That is something humans could not achieve in a millennium.


If instead of being a fiend the child is just leaking cantus how is the child capable of controlling the leakage without killing the queer rats around it? Shun was only able to control his leakage only with great effort and only for a short period of time. I think the story has made a case that leakage was unintentional and uncontrollable. Also, the story has made the point that even "normal human" cantus leaks and not 100% controllable.


If, at present, the child is both obeying the queer rat handlers and not subject to the genetic death feedback then that suggests the child still has the potential to become either a fiend or a cantus leaker.



SO...considering Yakomaru's longer range strategy of raising his own cantus army, it seems as though he is planting the seeds of the queer rats downfall. ALL cantus users have been described as walking nuclear bombs and it would only take a few of the stolen babies to go nuclear to destroy the queer rat civilization.

Maybe this is not a plot hole?
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