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Old 2013-02-22, 03:06   Link #3621
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
IIRC if it ends in -ii, such as "yasashii", "oishii", etc, then it undergoes a more complex process, but if it's something else (like "keizaiteki" or "zankoku"), then it simply takes -na, i.e. "keizaiteki na ryori" (economical cuisine)
There are plenty of na-adjectives that terminate with 'い'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
What are the rules for adding な to a noun to make it a modifying word/adjective? Can I add な to any noun for which an adjective doesn't already exist?
No, it doesn't work that way. And as a matter of fact, sorry to say, but I don't exactly understand what you are asking. Are you talking about na-adjectives which are sometimes known as adjectival nouns? Perhaps if you clarify you a little bit, someone will be able to better help you.
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Last edited by larethian; 2013-02-22 at 03:33.
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Old 2013-02-22, 03:08   Link #3622
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
There are plenty of na-adjectives that terminate with 'い'.
Excuse me, but did you read? I said "ii", not "i".
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Old 2013-02-22, 03:12   Link #3623
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Excuse me, but did you read? I said "ii", not "i".
yasashii (優しい) does not end with 'ii'; it ends with 'shii'. same for oishii (おいしい).

osoi (遅い) is an i-adjective and ends with い. All i-adjectives end with い. But the converse is not true, thus we have to memorize by heart which are na-adjectives and which are i-adjectives.
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Old 2013-02-22, 03:40   Link #3624
LeoXiao
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But they still end in the -ii sound. The consonant sound before it is not important.
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Old 2013-02-22, 11:04   Link #3625
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
But they still end in the -ii sound. The consonant sound before it is not important.
kirei is a na-adj....just saying...
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Old 2013-02-22, 12:07   Link #3626
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
kirei is a na-adj....just saying...
Argh, "kirei" has only one "i" sound at the end, not two!
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Old 2013-02-22, 12:24   Link #3627
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Argh, "kirei" has only one "i" sound at the end, not two!
You are saying the consonant sound before the i is not important
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Old 2013-02-22, 12:37   Link #3628
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
You are saying the consonant sound before the i is not important
okay, I said in the initial response to Kudryavka's question that adjectives with the base form "-ii" do not take "-na".

Now in Japanese there are a variety of kana that represent some consonant or consonant cluster with the final "-i" sound, i.e "ki", "shi", "chi", "ni" etc.

When I say that the consonant does not matter, I mean that what is essential is the doubled "ii" sound, not the "k-", "sh-" or whatever.
So in "yasashii", even though it is written in kana "ya-sa-shi-i" (can't type kana on this computer, sorry), there still exists the "-ii" final sounds.

In "kirei", written "ki-re-i", there is no doubled "i" sound because there is only ONE "i". If it was "ki-ri-i" then you would be correct.
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Old 2013-02-22, 12:42   Link #3629
JINNSK
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i of kirei(綺麗 in kanji) is from 麗(rei).It isn't an adj though the end is i.
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Old 2013-02-22, 13:08   Link #3630
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
IIRC if it ends in -ii, such as "yasashii", "oishii", etc, then it undergoes a more complex process, but if it's something else (like "keizaiteki" or "zankoku"), then it simply takes -na, i.e. "keizaiteki na ryori" (economical cuisine)
I mean for words that are just nouns, not already common -na adjectives. Like could I do 犬な?
Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post

No, it doesn't work that way. And as a matter of fact, sorry to say, but I don't exactly understand what you are asking. Are you talking about na-adjectives which are sometimes known as adjectival nouns? Perhaps if you clarify you a little bit, someone will be able to better help you.
Thank you. I think my new clarification is better to understand.
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Old 2013-02-22, 13:20   Link #3631
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
I mean for words that are just nouns, not already common -na adjectives. Like could I do 犬な?
As seen in the example "keizaiteki" (economical), rendered 经济的 (sorry, computer can only type PRC characters), what we have is "keizai", or the noun "economics", followed by the kanji " 的" (teki), which indicates an adjective. But to make this work in Japanese you need the "-na", as "keizaiteki" is indeclinable according to the "-ii" adjective rules.

JINNSK gave the kanji 綺麗 for "kirei" and said that it is not an adjective. Actually it is in noun form ("beauty", I guess), but it can be made into an adjective simply by adding "-na" to it. As another example there is the word "zankoku" (cruel), written 残酷, which is also in "noun form" (cruelty), so it takes "-na" as well.

Note that none of these examples end in a double "-ii" sound. Also, all of these examples are in the On'yomi form of pronunciation, i.e. adapted directly from Chinese, while the "-ii" examples like "yasashii", "mezurashii" or "muzukashii" are Kun'yomi and therefore native Japanese words.
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Old 2013-02-23, 15:04   Link #3632
Seitsuki
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Quick TL question for a change.

How far would you say localising should go? Run into a part where a character refers to their aunt as お母様. A straight up TL (I believe anyway) would kill off a ton of the implications in that term. Then again I can't romanise it either because it's a pretty fringe term already (compared to Onee san or the like) and those who do understand JP may take it to mean mother instead. Thoughts?
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Old 2013-02-23, 15:44   Link #3633
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Quick TL question for a change.

How far would you say localising should go? Run into a part where a character refers to their aunt as お母様. A straight up TL (I believe anyway) would kill off a ton of the implications in that term. Then again I can't romanise it either because it's a pretty fringe term already (compared to Onee san or the like) and those who do understand JP may take it to mean mother instead. Thoughts?
If this character was adopted by the aunt then I think 'mom' would suffice. I can't think of any other reason why someone would call their aunt as mother.
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Old 2013-02-23, 21:39   Link #3634
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
okay, I said in the initial response to Kudryavka's question that adjectives with the base form "-ii" do not take "-na".

Now in Japanese there are a variety of kana that represent some consonant or consonant cluster with the final "-i" sound, i.e "ki", "shi", "chi", "ni" etc.

When I say that the consonant does not matter, I mean that what is essential is the doubled "ii" sound, not the "k-", "sh-" or whatever.
So in "yasashii", even though it is written in kana "ya-sa-shi-i" (can't type kana on this computer, sorry), there still exists the "-ii" final sounds.

In "kirei", written "ki-re-i", there is no doubled "i" sound because there is only ONE "i". If it was "ki-ri-i" then you would be correct.
れ is not a consonant sound?
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Old 2013-02-23, 21:47   Link #3635
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
れ is not a consonant sound?
It is a consonant sound, but it does not end in "i".
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Old 2013-02-23, 22:21   Link #3636
Cosmic Eagle
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And anyway what about stuff like 大きな ? Can take both na and i form i being simply 大きい
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Old 2013-02-23, 23:31   Link #3637
LeoXiao
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I actually don't know, maybe there are irregular cases. My Japanese isn't all that good. I was always under the impression that 大きい was the correct form.
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Old 2013-02-23, 23:49   Link #3638
Avatar of Dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
And anyway what about stuff like 大きな ? Can take both na and i form i being simply 大きい
I think you're missing his point. He means to say that when the adjective is written out in romanized form, if the last two letters are both 'i', the verb is an i-adjective (形容詞). 大きな would be romanized as 'ookina' so there is only one 'i' before the 'na', thus his rule technically holds in this case.

Unfortunately that rule is not correct. Counterexamples: 奇異な(きいな)、軽易な(けいいな).
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Old 2013-02-24, 00:00   Link #3639
LeoXiao
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Okay, I guess that theory no longer works. Is the rule actually based on the differences between native vs. Sino-Japanese words?
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Old 2013-02-24, 12:09   Link #3640
AmeNoJaku
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About J-adjectives: The original question makes little sense, both types of adjectives are always used as adjectives, just follow different conjugation rules. If you have to use a noun as an adjective, use the no particle. Now what LeoXiao wrote is correct and this is how textbooks introduce adjectives. But it does not cover everything, if one succumbs to japanese grammar nazism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Quick TL question for a change.

How far would you say localising should go? Run into a part where a character refers to their aunt as お母様. A straight up TL (I believe anyway) would kill off a ton of the implications in that term. Then again I can't romanise it either because it's a pretty fringe term already (compared to Onee san or the like) and those who do understand JP may take it to mean mother instead. Thoughts?
Explanation in brackets or a translation note are the best solutions, if the target language doesn't have a similar way to express something. Localization is as bad as dubbing in these cases, not being able to convey all the information from the original language.
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