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Old 2013-02-21, 23:16   Link #6801
Kudryavka
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Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konakaga View Post
Depends on who owns the license, some will pursue that even (like funimation is know to) and if it's regionally licensed or on CR, it's considered illegal to AS at the least.
Ok. I just hate getting fansubs from DVDs or BDs rips because they came from media you're supposed to buy. It's just like stealing and downloading a whole DVD/BD of a movie off of Bittorrent. But I thought that TV episodes would be okay (before any licenses) since they're shown for free, usually as advertisements to buy the series on BD later. In my opinion if you want the high quality from discs you should pay for it like the owners want you to.

So let's say a series is only out on TV, which usually means there is no license. So, is it legal to upload and download those episodes that someone records from TV? Since the owners are putting it out for free on TV, internet fansubs would seem to only generate interest and not lose money. Fansub watchers would either buy the series later (owners get money), or just ignore and move on (owners get nothing b/c the fansub watcher did not like their advertisement, but every advertiser expects that some/most people who watch their ads won't commit to buying). It's not like DVD and BD ripped fansubs, in which case the owners do lose money because why buy the discs when you already have disc quality for free?

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-02-22 at 00:14.
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Old 2013-02-22, 02:33   Link #6802
RRW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Like this
isnt that basically alblum
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Old 2013-02-22, 05:01   Link #6803
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Ok. I just hate getting fansubs from DVDs or BDs rips because they came from media you're supposed to buy. It's just like stealing and downloading a whole DVD/BD of a movie off of Bittorrent.
And what if the movie never makes it to a cinema near you? How are you going to view the movie first, to decide if you wish to buy a DVD/BD of it later?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
But I thought that TV episodes would be okay (before any licenses) since they're shown for free, usually as advertisements to buy the series on BD later. In my opinion if you want the high quality from discs you should pay for it like the owners want you to.
No, TV viewing is never "free". You forget that you pay a TV licence fee. And that's before you even consider subscribed cable or satellite channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
So let's say a series is only out on TV, which usually means there is no license. So, is it legal to upload and download those episodes that someone records from TV? Since the owners are putting it out for free on TV, internet fansubs would seem to only generate interest and not lose money. Fansub watchers would either buy the series later (owners get money), or just ignore and move on (owners get nothing b/c the fansub watcher did not like their advertisement, but every advertiser expects that some/most people who watch their ads won't commit to buying). It's not like DVD and BD ripped fansubs, in which case the owners do lose money because why buy the discs when you already have disc quality for free?
In principle, as long as you're making a copy and distributing the copy without permission or licence, you're doing something illegal. It makes no difference whether you ripped the content from TV programming or DVD/BDs.

There might be some ambiguity over whether simply making a copy is already considered an offence. The Laws of Anime was recently published on Anime News Network. I read the first part, but not the second. A clearer answer might be found there.
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Old 2013-02-22, 05:10   Link #6804
Vexx
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In most cases, you are committing a copyright infringement of some sort (even if it was broadcast on cable, you don't have a subscription - if it was broadcast on free television, you still didn't watch the advertisements).

However, whether it really matters or not to the producers practically depends on if they think they lost money or not. So far *most* anime producers don't really care about overseas infringements because people who watch fansubs either were never going to buy anyway (leechers) or they will later buy the series when R1 distributor licenses it anyway, kind of a "don't ask don't tell".

Now that services like CrunchyRoll and Funimation netcast series, it has gotten more complicated. For example, I subscribe to Crunchyroll but I grab fansubs anyway because I think it is stupid and wasteful to restream an episode several times. When the DVDs come out, they've corrected broadcast flaws, added extended footage or bonus episodes - often I end up buying the DVDs anyway.

I simply refuse to buy DVD/Bluray without having seen a broadcast version of the product. The moral of the story is that it is a murky swamp of "right" and "wrong" - you just have to wade through and figure out what is moral for you and what kind of risks those entail.
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Old 2013-02-22, 05:20   Link #6805
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Question: Is fansubbing anime from television illegal? Only the episodes that come on on TV for free.
You don't watch them for free, they are being paid on your behalf by advertisers.

If there is an attempt to copy, modify and edit, it is considered a breach of copyright and it is an offence. Although you may have to pay remedies, the producers aren't stupid, as what Vexx have said, they do know how to run businesses. They do not care about these kind of small stuff because they know litigation is expensive and that money can be better used to create something else to sell.

Still, be careful if you are going to do this - against better financed opponents there isn't much of a way you can win.
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Old 2013-02-22, 09:19   Link #6806
Kudryavka
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When I say "free", I meant "free to me". Of course it's not really free but viewers are not paying.

What is this "TV license fee"? Is it something that viewers pay? Where I live all I pay for is the TV, a TV box and an optional cable box but I know for late night anime it's different and the studios don't get funding from networks to run their anime. The anime is essentially a long advertisement so the studio pays the network to run it. So I am seeing the entire ad and sponsors in TV ripped fansubs I think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
You don't watch them for free, they are being paid on your behalf by advertisers.

If there is an attempt to copy, modify and edit, it is considered a breach of copyright and it is an offence. Although you may have to pay remedies, the producers aren't stupid, as what Vexx have said, they do know how to run businesses. They do not care about these kind of small stuff because they know litigation is expensive and that money can be better used to create something else to sell.

Still, be careful if you are going to do this - against better financed opponents there isn't much of a way you can win.
Thank you. Are anie paid for by many ads that run during the program?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
And what if the movie never makes it to a cinema near you? How are you going to view the movie first, to decide if you wish to buy a DVD/BD of it later?
Thank you for reply.
If I never saw the movie I wouldn't want to own it at all. But if it was for a series I already like then I'll just blind buy (I am doing that for the Madoka movies when they come out on BD because I missed them).


Quote:
No, TV viewing is never "free". You forget that you pay a TV licence fee. And that's before you even consider subscribed cable or satellite channels.
What is the licensing fee? Does customer pay?


Quote:
In principle, as long as you're making a copy and distributing the copy without permission or licence, you're doing something illegal. It makes no difference whether you ripped the content from TV programming or DVD/BDs.

There might be some ambiguity over whether simply making a copy is already considered an offence. The Laws of Anime was recently published on Anime News Network. I read the first part, but not the second. A clearer answer might be found there.
Yeah I had feeling would come to that it's illegal anyway. Guess morality comes in again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
In most cases, you are committing a copyright infringement of some sort (even if it was broadcast on cable, you don't have a subscription - if it was broadcast on free television, you still didn't watch the advertisements).

However, whether it really matters or not to the producers practically depends on if they think they lost money or not. So far *most* anime producers don't really care about overseas infringements because people who watch fansubs either were never going to buy anyway (leechers) or they will later buy the series when R1 distributor licenses it anyway, kind of a "don't ask don't tell".

Now that services like CrunchyRoll and Funimation netcast series, it has gotten more complicated. For example, I subscribe to Crunchyroll but I grab fansubs anyway because I think it is stupid and wasteful to restream an episode several times. When the DVDs come out, they've corrected broadcast flaws, added extended footage or bonus episodes - often I end up buying the DVDs anyway.

I simply refuse to buy DVD/Bluray without having seen a broadcast version of the product. The moral of the story is that it is a murky swamp of "right" and "wrong" - you just have to wade through and figure out what is moral for you and what kind of risks those entail.
Ok, thank you for reply.
It is illegal anyway.

Well this puts me in a rut. But I'm glad for Crunchyroll, I only watch them whenever I can even though their subs are bad occassionally (I watch very few unlicensed anime a year so its really easy to just trust Crunchy). Then I buy discs if they ever come out where I am, but I'm going to buy the R2 releases someday (since I think BDs from Japan will work on American player?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
isnt that basically alblum
Yesss that is the word! Okay so imgur does that

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-02-22 at 09:32.
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Old 2013-02-22, 11:55   Link #6807
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
What is the licensing fee? Does customer pay?
In most countries (including Japan), it is required that you pay an annual Television License if you own a TV. Your country may not require it though. I'm pretty sure there's no TV License in the USA, for instance.
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Old 2013-02-22, 13:06   Link #6808
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
In most countries (including Japan), it is required that you pay an annual Television License if you own a TV. Your country may not require it though. I'm pretty sure there's no TV License in the USA, for instance.
Thanks, I didn't know that!
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Old 2013-02-22, 15:36   Link #6809
SaintessHeart
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I was watching R2B, a Korean movie before I came out to work.

During the scene where the MC is being rescued by the 707th SMB, the commandoes are all wearing berets instead of helmets.

I know it is unrealistic, going into a high-risk special operation without helmets. However, it feels so, out of place when they wear ceremonial berets instead of jungle hats. Does the Korean cinema place more emphasis on image than reality?
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Old 2013-02-23, 03:32   Link #6810
risingstar3110
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Based on above comic, can anyone explains to me why those random words have 11 bits of entropy each?
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Old 2013-02-23, 04:52   Link #6811
Dhomochevsky
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I guess their equal entropy stems from them being all common words and not just random strings of various length.
Ie a common word is an atomic entity here, like a letter, or a number and their total amount is limited.
He may have counted all common words and determined that picking from one of them (in all lower case) is the entropy equivalent of an 11 bit number.
That means he's made the assumption that there are only about 2^11 = 2048 common (english) words.

I dunno if that is correct. Maybe he only counted 'common' words with a certain length... You go check.
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Old 2013-02-23, 12:45   Link #6812
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
I guess their equal entropy stems from them being all common words and not just random strings of various length.
Ie a common word is an atomic entity here, like a letter, or a number and their total amount is limited.
He may have counted all common words and determined that picking from one of them (in all lower case) is the entropy equivalent of an 11 bit number.
That means he's made the assumption that there are only about 2^11 = 2048 common (english) words.

I dunno if that is correct. Maybe he only counted 'common' words with a certain length... You go check.
I don't know what officially constitutes entropy when it comes to passwords. The way he's drawn it, it seems like making some distinction counts for one point of entropy. So for example, caps vs. non-caps is one point of entropy (because there are two possibilities), using a number instead of a letter counts as one point of entropy, not being consistent with number-letter substitutions counts as a point of entropy, and so on. In this case, what he's trying to show is that you can still have more entropy even without getting fancy with substitutions and capitalizations, simply by chaining together a series of common words.

Getting to your question specifically, based on his numbers of blocks it looks like the assumption is that most words are 5-6 characters in length. Aside from not knowing exactly what the words is, there is uncertainty in not knowing whether it's five or six characters in length... 5+6 = 11? And then there are four words, so 4x11=44.

Maybe...
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:32   Link #6813
Dhomochevsky
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Entropy in information science is basicly the amount of variation a message can possibly contain, that means it's uncertainty.
Say you have a 2 bit number. Then it could hold 2^2 different meanings: 00,01,10,11
So the entropy here is 2 bits (the entropy equaivalent of a 2 bit number).

Characters are not bits. For ecample ASCII uses 8 bits to code a single character. You could code all small letters into 5 bits though.
With 26 possible letters, a random sequence of letters of length 6 would have 26^6 possibilities. That is hugely more than 6 bits of entropy. And it is also much more than 11 bits.

He uses only 44 bits, because he assumes that an attacker knows that
a) he's using only common english words, not random sequences
b) he's using exactly 4 of them
and it is STILL reasonably safe.
This is because the obvious rebuttal to this comic would be "but dictionary attacks will crack it in no time".
He's getting ahead of that by assuming such an attack and still coming out with a good security.

Last edited by Dhomochevsky; 2013-02-23 at 16:49.
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Old 2013-02-24, 22:59   Link #6814
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Entropy in information science is basicly the amount of variation a message can possibly contain, that means it's uncertainty.
Say you have a 2 bit number. Then it could hold 2^2 different meanings: 00,01,10,11
So the entropy here is 2 bits (the entropy equaivalent of a 2 bit number).

Characters are not bits. For ecample ASCII uses 8 bits to code a single character. You could code all small letters into 5 bits though.
With 26 possible letters, a random sequence of letters of length 6 would have 26^6 possibilities. That is hugely more than 6 bits of entropy. And it is also much more than 11 bits.

He uses only 44 bits, because he assumes that an attacker knows that
a) he's using only common english words, not random sequences
b) he's using exactly 4 of them
and it is STILL reasonably safe.
This is because the obvious rebuttal to this comic would be "but dictionary attacks will crack it in no time".
He's getting ahead of that by assuming such an attack and still coming out with a good security.
So the 11 entropy (2^11) actually just a number he came up with to assume that's how many common words a human can think of?

Google around a bit, 2^11 is a bit more than 2000. And most kid starts school knowing 500-5000 words, so i guess it has a point
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Old 2013-02-24, 23:17   Link #6815
Tecprincess
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Anyone seen or have this?

Anyone have this?



I recently been going through online stores to look anime items to buy, and I saw this.

"16GB USB Flash Drive USB 2.0 Memory GUILTY CROWN Anime Comic Game Credit Card Size "

Is it just a USB drive? or something else? Because it has the game in the title.
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Old 2013-02-25, 04:11   Link #6816
NoemiChan
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Is there a remedy for discussion induced headache?
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Old 2013-02-25, 04:19   Link #6817
Ridwan
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Is there a remedy for discussion induced headache?
You rant and ridicule about idiots who've made you so. That's what friends are for.
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Old 2013-02-25, 04:25   Link #6818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
You rant and ridicule about idiots who've made you so. That's what friends are for.
I thought you'll advice to have break.. I think I'll get ban if I show my real self here and rant and ridicule....
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Old 2013-02-25, 04:34   Link #6819
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I thought you'll advice to have break.. I think I'll get ban if I show my real self here and rant and ridicule....
That is a possible part of the breaking package. It's important to diversify your social life, internet not excluded.
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Old 2013-02-25, 04:39   Link #6820
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Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
That is a possible part of the breaking package. It's important to diversify your social life, internet not excluded.
Yeah, what really pissed me off is they're drawing facts out of speculations and is baseless.... Anyway... May just watch some series to relieved myself, hehehe. Thanks!
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