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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 28 46.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 26.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-23, 16:15   Link #61
sikvod00
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@Kirarakim: Yeah, Saki's view of queerats reminds me of some white abolitionists in the U.S. They believed enslaving blacks was immoral but still held racist views and thought they were "inferior" race.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:18   Link #62
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I think that's still a bad move by the queerats. What if those humans they treat as nothing but weapons for war decide to rebel? Even one of them can take them all out, imagine a group.

I guess they might intend to brainwash them, though. We've seen Squealer is certainly not above such methods.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:21   Link #63
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Well, it's definitely not a traditional fiend. We're just calling it a fiend out expediency. That kid seems to just be indoctrinated by the queerats and grew up with the death feedback mechanism somehow.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:22   Link #64
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Originally Posted by SeaDoor View Post
OK, I am having a hard time reconciling the "aki-child" with what the story has said about fiends. Is this child really a fiend?
I guess it depends is:

1) A fiend just a human who can kill other humans
2) A normal human who later on cracks and then is capable of killing humans.

If it is no. 1 than I guess we can still call the child a fiend. If it is number 2 then no I would say the child is not a fiend.

But remember Satoru & Saki did not realize right away who the child was, naturally their first assumption of a human killing another human would be a fiend. Once they find out the child is Maria & Mamoru's that might change their perspective?
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:23   Link #65
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By the way, can anyone explain why Shisei was defeated by "cantus leakage", what it is and why it can't be defended against?

I don't understand why it seemed like he'd be able to at least stall against normal attacks, but such a thing would be indefensible. Or what cantus leakage even is to begin with.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:27   Link #66
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How long does a queerat live anyways?
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:32   Link #67
Trajan
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Being a cantus user means you have the potential to wipe out queerats, but not that you would. There are individuals like Saki who see queerats more as equals, at least compared to others. She would never consider doing that. That's why I said it was debatable to think this was their only choice. There may have been a chance to negotiate or create an alliance with sympathetic humans in order to gain their freedom. Who knows? Committing genocide by killing every single human who has the potential to use cantus, even in the name of freedom, is not something I sympathize with.
I agree that the queerats would have been more sympathetic if there was some indication that they had attempted to negotiate more equal rights with the humans before rebelling. The false minoshiro taught them about democracy, so I would think that it would have been interesting to see them present a petition based on philosophers' theories of equality.

However, I don't think the queerats are wrong to believe it is necessary to kill all the Cantu users. From their perspective, they do not know which humans might be nice to them and which will kill them. Even Saki views them as subhuman and their lives essentially meaningless. After all, she watches Kiroumaru slaughter several colonies without showing any trace of emotion. Additionally, the humans were going to annihilate the Robber Fly colony for simply winning a battle the humans had not wanted them to win, which to the queerats shows that they exist at the whims of humanity. Destroying humanity is really the only option for them once they rebel.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:34   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I guess it depends is:

1) A fiend just a human who can kill other humans
2) A normal human who later on cracks and then is capable of killing humans.

If it is no. 1 than I guess we can still call the child a fiend. If it is number 2 then no I would say the child is not a fiend.
That child didn't strike you as cracked?
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:36   Link #69
ChronoReverse
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After all, she watches Kiroumaru slaughter several colonies without showing any trace of emotion.
That's pretty nice of them honestly. When I watched the queerats kill each other I thought that they're just like the worse of humans warring among themselves.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:42   Link #70
Kirarakim
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That child didn't strike you as cracked?
Oh you know what I meant

Based on a mental condition or nurturing. Although perhaps it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan
From their perspective, they do not know which humans might be nice to them and which will kill them
Then I suppose from the human perspective it is not wrong to wipe out all the monster rats because look what happened.

You see how that logic works. So basically the solution of the story is total destruction of one species?
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:48   Link #71
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I personally still believe the rats are the human groups who never developed PK (the ones that were unaccounted for).

If they were created I believe it was the scientist group.
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
That brings up the question of what happened to the scientist group. They created this society and its self-checks but where did they go? Did they implement everything on the survivors of the dictator era as well as themselves? Why did they seem to disband after that?

It does seem like a possibility that it's the non-PK humans. I had thought the scientist group was fairly enlightened, what sick reason could they have to convert a HUGE part of the population to that? Ugh.
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That I have no theory on...
Well, I do.

A) What happened to the scientists? They're running the village. (Question: Saki awoke to her power late? What would have happened to her, had she not awakened to it at all?)

B) Why transform humans into bakenezumi? Improved soldiers to fight cantus users. Those mutants don't occur naturally. Either the bakenezumi make them on purpose, or it's in their genetic code to be able to produce them. The bakenezumi were probably anti-cantus-user shock troops from the beginning. [If this is true, imagine the moment Yakumaru found out... Having a Queen rule them is suddenly not just a biological inevitablility, but an engineered attempt at social and genetic control. You can tailor an entire colony to your needs, after all, by only tampering with one individual. Mole rats are the only mammals that offer that opportunity, and mammals would be more compatible with humans than insects...]

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Originally Posted by creb View Post
Drawing a blank on what the point of an infant rat is going to have next episode. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Are the blue eyes supposed to signify something?
The show's real couple: Saki x Kiroumaru.

Seriously, I'm intrigued, too. I have no theories at all.

***

Add me to the people who didn't quite understand how the child defeated Shiisei, and what that's got to do with cantus leakage. My best guess is that when you use your powers, those powers have to connect somewhere with the outside world, so you can never defend yourself completely. It's also possible that Shiisei is very sensitive to other people's cantus (e.g. the shockwave in that Shun-scene). I'm wildly guessing, but I don't quite get it. I think I might have missed something vital.
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Old 2013-02-23, 16:59   Link #72
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I was under the strong impression that death feedback is part of the hypnosis/ritual they undergo as we saw Saki undergo in episode 1, which-if true-means there's an outside chance it could be removed, and I was assuming that was why Tomiko was sending Saki to the Temple of Purity in the first place, but next episode's preview doesn't seem to hint at all that that will occur, so who knows.

The child's identity is obviously going to affect Saki, who-to be blunt-isn't really showing any of the qualities Tomiko seems to believe a good leader should have, but at least Satoru seems to have a level head concerning the child, and I don't see him letting the child's identity stop him from doing what must be done, whatever that ends up being.

As far as leakage is concerned, they explained in earlier episodes that fiends' cantus leaks and warps the world around them uncontrollably, which in this case is presumably a roundabout way of saying you CAN'T predict a fiend's actions completely, because while the fiend controls some of its actions, there's all that leaked cantus doing whatever it wants that simply can't be predicted.
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Old 2013-02-23, 17:32   Link #73
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Perhaps the baby rat is a new queen. Yakomaru probably killed or captured the old one so her offspring is the only hope for Kiromaru and his colony. Queens are not immortal so they must give birth to new queens from time to time.
I would also like to know how exactly Shiisei died. Are we certain that he is dead? His body was still in one piece and there was no blood. It just seems pointless to introduce his strange eyes, like he is some sort of mutant or the next step in evolution and then forget it. Maybe he has regenerative abilities. If any novel reader is reading this, I would like to be spoiled please.
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Old 2013-02-23, 17:51   Link #74
Trajan
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Then I suppose from the human perspective it is not wrong to wipe out all the monster rats because look what happened.

You see how that logic works. So basically the solution of the story is total destruction of one species?
Hardly. As Tomiko implied, each human being is essentially a WMD with the capacity to exterminate all queerats. These WMD have repeatedly been used against the queerats so the queerats are quite aware of the destructive power and of the fact that humans will not think twice to use it against them. Once the decision was made to rebel, the only way victory can be guaranteed is through the elimination of every WMD. In fact, the humans essentially agree with this view of themselves, as they kill any young who show a hint of the potential to become a fiend.

For the humans, on the other hand, they can achieve victory without resorting to killing every last queerat. In fact, they probably only need to kill a few (the fiend, Yakomaru, etc.) to see the rebellion crumble.

Of course, that's easier said than done since this society seems to have no contingency plan in place to deal with a fiend once it emerges (it's completely unrealistic by the way, and the major failing of this story. If Shun decides not to kill himself then the whole society is doomed. Brilliant.) From the previews though it looks like Satoru might come up with a solution.
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Old 2013-02-23, 18:02   Link #75
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There isn't supposed to be a need for a contingency plan, because they're supposed to kill/nip problems in the bud, and for that to work, you have to do a lot of nipping of buds-many of which probably never would have become problems.

And, it seemed to have worked fairly well for the most part until a hormonally-unbalanced teenage girl let her emotions get the better of her, even after essentially having the brutal facts of life laid out to her, and allowed two "wmds" to walk free. Yes, I realize there's some humor in realizing hormonally-unbalanced teens haven't caused far more outbreaks of fiends than have occurred, but...it's a work of fiction, so we have to cut them some slack.

That said, you're right that it can't be sustained for long lengths of time. After all, all it takes is one mistake for horrible disaster to happen.

Keep in mind, however, that the era they live in isn't one where it's easy for a human being to live alone, so one can presume that on the occasional occurrence where a mistake occurs, nature manages to take its course and keep that mistake relatively local in nature.

The rats taking babies to essentially grow an army of fiends is a new twist that I imagine the humans never ever thought to guard against, as the main difference here is that the fiend is not likely to burn out quickly on its own, due to being fed and nurtured and sheltered by the rats.
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Old 2013-02-23, 18:08   Link #76
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I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they were "totally fooled".

The Queerats really were treated as little more than cattle by the humans of this world. What that one Queerat said to Saki and Satoru in this episode was stated with sincerity, and there is some truth to what he said there. The Queerats really will escape the thumb of human control if they successfully win this war.

And even if Yakomaru's main goal is personal empowerment (which I myself am inclined to believe), what says he won't put into place a Queerat government where Queerats enjoy a degree of freedom and equality comparable to, say, WWII era Americans?

He can give them that, or something closely approximating it, and still maintain great personal power for the remainder of his life.
You are correct, he's manipulating them with the truth, and that's what makes it so brilliant. I said they were fooled because they have no idea what his true intentions are. They genuinely believe he is a selfless hero fighting for their freedom even though he's probably the biggest coward of them all (unless he has radically changed since the old days... which I doubt), albeit an incredibly cunning and ambitious one.

I think he's mixed some lies in the truth however. Wiping humans off the face of the earth was definitely not the only solution. As far as we know, they haven't even tried to sit down and talk things through with the humans. I am also not convinced the humans were exactly the kind of tyrants Yakomaru made them out to be. They monitored the queerats and required obedience from them but they still let them enjoy a relative degree of freedom. Some of them didn't even obey humans (like the colony that attacked the kids and the priest) and yet were apparently left alone. Humans never even meddled in their affairs, the fact they were able to set-up a democracy is a definite proof. It's definitely unfair that they were seen as inferior life-forms but I don't believe their situation was that bad. At least not bad enough to warrant such a crusade.

To be honest, I'm not sure they will be better off under Yakomaru's rule. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly what happens. Countless times throughout history have revolutionaries become worse dictators than the ones they toppled. And history always repeats itself.
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Old 2013-02-23, 18:17   Link #77
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Hardly. As Tomiko implied, each human being is essentially a WMD with the capacity to exterminate all queerats. These WMD have repeatedly been used against the queerats so the queerats are quite aware of the destructive power and of the fact that humans will not think twice to use it against them. Once the decision was made to rebel, the only way victory can be guaranteed is through the elimination of every WMD. In fact, the humans essentially agree with this view of themselves, as they kill any young who show a hint of the potential to become a fiend.

For the humans, on the other hand, they can achieve victory without resorting to killing every last queerat. In fact, they probably only need to kill a few (the fiend, Yakomaru, etc.) to see the rebellion crumble.
So the only way that the rats can achieve freedom and humanity is to kill every last human, that is essentially what you are saying.


Is the measure of superiority (both for the humans and the rats) who has the potential to kill every last one of the others species?


edit: I do understand the rats have cause to fear a human who decides to massacre them all (in the same way the humans have a fear of a fiend) but I don't think the only solution has to be "kill them all".
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Old 2013-02-23, 18:51   Link #78
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Perhaps the baby rat is a new queen. Yakomaru probably killed or captured the old one so her offspring is the only hope for Kiromaru and his colony. Queens are not immortal so they must give birth to new queens from time to time.
looks like a fledgling false minoshiro. i'm guessing that was what Saki's mother had for her ? the contents of her library ?
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Old 2013-02-23, 19:06   Link #79
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You are correct, he's manipulating them with the truth, and that's what makes it so brilliant. I said they were fooled because they have no idea what his true intentions are. They genuinely believe he is a selfless hero fighting for their freedom even though he's probably the biggest coward of them all (unless he has radically changed since the old days... which I doubt), albeit an incredibly cunning and ambitious one.

I think he's mixed some lies in the truth however. Wiping humans off the face of the earth was definitely not the only solution. As far as we know, they haven't even tried to sit down and talk things through with the humans. I am also not convinced the humans were exactly the kind of tyrants Yakomaru made them out to be. They monitored the queerats and required obedience from them but they still let them enjoy a relative degree of freedom. Some of them didn't even obey humans (like the colony that attacked the kids and the priest) and yet were apparently left alone. Humans never even meddled in their affairs, the fact they were able to set-up a democracy is a definite proof. It's definitely unfair that they were seen as inferior life-forms but I don't believe their situation was that bad. At least not bad enough to warrant such a crusade.

To be honest, I'm not sure they will be better off under Yakomaru's rule. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly what happens. Countless times throughout history have revolutionaries become worse dictators than the ones they toppled. And history always repeats itself.
I agree Yakomaru's manipulating his kindred and brethren with the truth. I strongly disagree with the notion that he's dumb enough to actually lie. Showing dissent over the status quo to the humans is viable to get him and his colony if not the whole alliance, killed. Every time he squealed the words, 'don't all sentient species deserve equal rights?' He only received a cold silence for a reply. The time he mentioned their similar bone structure (as they are both bipedal mammals) to Saki he, due to her body language, felt that he quickly needed to add in some diminutives as to not incur Saki's disfavor.

The renegotiation of their co-existence had to come from the humans. But instead of coping with and adjusting to the developments in the queerat world. They choose to leave everything as it was. Fearing the queerats's growth and technological advances but ever comfortable and confident in the notion that they could kill the critters at any time they pleased. For whatever they pleased. Comfortable in their arrangement.

As for the tyranny aspect. The hideously normal voiced captured exposition queerat explanation was satisfactory. While 'tyranny' is indeed not a good word for the idea expressed. Their frustration with the gods is much like the cynical belief that there either is no God or that there is a God but He enjoys and causes our agony or could prevent it and chooses not to because He's a sick bastard with a twisted sense of humor.

The humans are not 'tyrants' because they make the queerats submit forms before letting them go to war. They are 'tyrants' because they let the queerats go to war. They are 'tyrants' for not sharing the enlightened idea's of democracy and equality with the queerats. They are 'tyrants' because they hoard all knowledge left by those who came before in the fake minoshiro. Because they leave the queerrats to crawl in the dirt and starve and struggle.

Sure the current generation of (local) humans in Shin Sekai Yori will suffer the consequences if they fail to exterminate all hostile queerats and kill the fiend. But faillying to do just that humanity will not go extinct. Japan is probably not the only scrap of land inhabited by humans and the captured human infants will be taken into the queerat society. As warrior slaves/pariah, at first I'm sure. But to take on the rest of Japan to say nothing of the the world (if that's really the queerats' intention) they'll need a long term strategy to integrate humans in their society. And perhaps they will succeed where humanity failed a thousand years ago in constructing a relatively peaceful modern society that can cope with a population of powerful PK-users.

Last edited by Repelsteeltju; 2013-02-23 at 19:19.
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Old 2013-02-23, 19:27   Link #80
Kirarakim
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And perhaps they will succeed where humanity failed a thousand years ago in constructing a relatively peaceful modern society that can cope with a population of powerful PK-users.
A relatively peaceful modern society built on the annihilation of the PK users? Killing to bring peace? I just don't see it.

If the monster rats are ultimately victorious here, I see a more likely end where in the future the children the monster rats have captured and enslaved to kill the humans would someday turn on their captors and kill them all, after all they are essentially creating a weapon whose purpose is to kill.
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