AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Psycho-Pass

Notices

View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 44 51.16%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 25.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 12.79%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.16%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.16%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.16%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-02-21, 06:01   Link #261
zeando
maybenotimome
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
You won't catch Asymptomatic latent criminals for their taste of music. They'll just get scanned as healthy and ignored. An Asymptomatic individual basically needs to do something to REALLY rock the boat in order for his status as an Asymptomatic criminal to get noticed.
that's your assumption only an "horrible thing" can be used to find a Asymptomatic criminal, since we've seen already in the show cases where parties and concerts got raided after it was known the people in it were doing something "illegal"
and the illegal music was only one of the many possible examples, just think about those strange/creepy artists, what would happen if they got found with those works of art but their hue was totally clear? they would be Criminally Asymptomatic too, or are you saying only violent criminally asymptomatic can be added for no reason whatsoever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Really. How much more blatant did that scene with Touma and Makishima have to be convey the idea that "Sybil system is run by serial killers"? Where Touma, the representative of the collective, is made to come off as creepy and psycho as hell what with her crazy eyes?
Really, how much are you going to twist and reinterpret what happens in the show just to fit your assumption they're all psychos?
i usually like opinions, but a bit of autocritic is always needed to don't take oneself too seriously

personally i'm not interested in a discussion about how (full)psychos are bad, since it would be the same as discussing about how wet is the water, not very interesting
and saying all the brains are psychos sibyl-brains = psychos = bad, it's just a more convoluted way to say that the water is wet
zeando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 07:35   Link #262
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
The word "psycho" is confusing. Since it usually refers to "psychotic".

That's why people invented the word "sociopathy".

Also, psychopath =/= bad.

It's implied (heavily) however, that the brains in jars ARE bad.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 07:52   Link #263
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It's implied (heavily) however, that the brains in jars ARE bad.
To be fair, self-absorbed megalomania and wanton pursuit of omniscience without regard for human welfare are generally perceived to be bad things.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 09:16   Link #264
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
that's your assumption only an "horrible thing" can be used to find a Asymptomatic criminal, since we've seen already in the show cases where parties and concerts got raided after it was known the people in it were doing something "illegal"
and the illegal music was only one of the many possible examples, just think about those strange/creepy artists, what would happen if they got found with those works of art but their hue was totally clear? they would be Criminally Asymptomatic too, or are you saying only violent criminally asymptomatic can be added for no reason whatsoever?
There's no indication that liking music from bands that Sybil hasn't authorized is illegal. Considering that both approved and unapproved bands were performing at the same venue, and that the approved bands looked down on the unapproved ones, if they had been illegal I'd think someone from the approved bands would have just called the police on them and got them arrested. The fact that something like that didn't happen suggests Sybil is more of a very well respected seal of approval when it comes to musical groups.


You're also forgetting that those concerts and parties got raided in connection to police investigations regarding arson and murder. The cops didn't go in to investigate what kind of music they were listening to.

And remember Rikako's father. He painted the most depraved violent things but we have no indication that that he was a latent criminal with a high crime coefficient, or that anybody would THINK that his past art made his current crime coefficient unusual. Sure he wasn't exactly prolific anymore, but it doesn't seem like we have much basis for assuming that Asymptomatic criminals are detected through regular art work. Hell. Even look at Rikako herself. She was drawing the same kind of disturbed material that her teachers could see, but it didn't shock any of them into thinking if she was a latent criminal. Sure they didn't check her crime coefficient, but if they had and saw it law low, they'd certainly not think this was anything unusual.


Remember it takes allot for people to doubt a Psycho-pass reading. People put ALLOT of faith in it. Remember how the factory workers beating on that one guy was okay because their psycho-pass said it was okay? That's how much faith people put into Psycho-Pass readings. Everything we've seen so far points to the only thing that would definitely get you branded as an Asymptomatic criminal is if you did something really overtly violent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
personally i'm not interested in a discussion about how (full)psychos are bad, since it would be the same as discussing about how wet is the water, not very interesting
and saying all the brains are psychos sibyl-brains = psychos = bad, it's just a more convoluted way to say that the water is wet
Normally yes, but the conversation over whether water is wet gets a bit more interesting(or at least surreal) when some people start suggesting it has a consistency comparable to dry concrete.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 10:09   Link #265
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Though there is a bit of mocking derision in what Makishima is getting at (It's not an attractive fate for the people involved), the point is that this is like a collective conscience of individuals. All their expertise, knowledge, and wisdom is melded together to create a single entity which possesses greater thought capacity than any lone individual. Every additional person who is added into the system only makes Sibyl more perfect, moreso if that given person is unique enough such that Sibyl cannot already think like that individual.
Too many cooks spoil the broth.

There is no indication that networking all these people together makes some perfect being. That is no different from saying if we wire all the humans on the planet would would somehow become a god. No, in reality it would just turn us into the Internet, with all the pros and cons. Networking humans together at no stage makes us perfect; it doesn't work like that. I would like you to explain why having enough humans in the same room makes us smarter and better at making decisions, because there is no historical proof that was ever the case.

Netwrking brains = more perfect being? I would like you to explain that logic. All that it could do is to make the collective smarter... But what does intelligence have to do with perfection? It doesn't allow it to make better decisions; it just allows it to be better at getting what it wants, no matter what it could be.

And there is nothing suggesting that Sybil is remotely interested in making an utopian society.

And you know why? Because Society doesn't know what Sybil is. Sybil recruits which brain it wants to join itself. There is no room for an outsider to decide "oh wait, the system is skewed, let's put in a different brain to balance it". No, since Sybil polices itself, if it makes a selection error it would be compounded. As it expands, the flaws in selection would become more and more pronounced, and there would be no one to put a stop to it.
__________________

Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2013-02-21 at 10:26.
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 12:55   Link #266
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And you know why? Because Society doesn't know what Sybil is. Sybil recruits which brain it wants to join itself. There is no room for an outsider to decide "oh wait, the system is skewed, let's put in a different brain to balance it". No, since Sybil polices itself, if it makes a selection error it would be compounded. As it expands, the flaws in selection would become more and more pronounced, and there would be no one to put a stop to it.
This is ultimately the biggest problem with a system like Sibyl. Groups who operate under these secretive conditions without oversight tend not to not be very adamant about reform. So problems tend to progressively magnify rather than get resolved. This is a staple of all governments, but this is a particularly bad example of it.


How the hell can people even make the argument that Sybil is efficient? The last three episodes have focused mainly on demonstrating how Sybil as a dictatorial council actually kinda sucks. Do omnipotent god like beings need to make excuses about why they can't stop small scale rioting? Would omnipotent god like beings have their survival be at the mercy of some Korean hacker deciding to take pictures of them, rather than tossing pipe bombs into their inner sanctum? If the Sybil collective was actually capable of improving itself, they'd at least be embarrassed at their screw up over these last three episodes. Instead Touma goes up right up to Makishima (the guy who nearly fucking destroyed the entire system by himself!) and unironically asserts Sybil's infallibility.


I literally cannot conceive how anybody could think that Sybil in its current form is an effective form of government. It's like some people just saw all the SCIIIIIIEEENCE and just forgot about how ineffectual the system has come off these last few episodes.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2013-02-21 at 13:12.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 13:21   Link #267
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post


I literally cannot conceive how anybody could think that Sybil in its current form is an effective form of government. It's like some people just saw all the SCIIIIIIEEENCE and just forgot about how ineffectual the system has come off these last few episodes.
Yeah, Sybil is clearly arrogant to a fault. That's the only way to explain the alarming lack of precautionary measures and back-ups we've seen over the last few episodes. These brains really are starting to develop massive delusions of grandeur. They really do think they're invincible by sheer virtue of their collective intelligence.

Well, Makishima and a Korean hacker showed that they're far, far from being invincible. It's only a matter of time until someone takes advantage of this degree of arrogance. If it isn't Makishima, it'll just be someone else.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-02-21 at 13:34.
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 16:52   Link #268
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, Sybil is clearly arrogant to a fault. That's the only way to explain the alarming lack of precautionary measures and back-ups we've seen over the last few episodes. These brains really are starting to develop massive delusions of grandeur. They really do think they're invincible by sheer virtue of their collective intelligence.
If Makishima and his friends are any indication, Touma - and probably his colleagues as well - had delusions of grandeur when he was still in his skull. Being stuck into Sibyl only made things worse.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-22, 03:29   Link #269
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, Sybil is clearly arrogant to a fault. That's the only way to explain the alarming lack of precautionary measures and back-ups we've seen over the last few episodes. These brains really are starting to develop massive delusions of grandeur. They really do think they're invincible by sheer virtue of their collective intelligence.

Well, Makishima and a Korean hacker showed that they're far, far from being invincible. It's only a matter of time until someone takes advantage of this degree of arrogance. If it isn't Makishima, it'll just be someone else.
Really. I kinda think that something that might be up is that Sybil is heavily making strategic decisions when it's in hive mind mode, where individual emotional responses are stunted. Particularly emotional responses like fear and uncertainty.


The problem with divesting human emotional responses from decision making is that in a large part, effective human decision making is BASED around emotional reactions. People who do something massively stupid that hurts them/nearly gets them killed don't realize what they did was stupid by an intense internal logical discourse. Their primitive monkey brain tells them that a course of action was ill advised, and THEN the higher brain thinks about why. We evolved this way for a reason. All the clever monkeys who literally thought they could consciously and rationally think through every problem tended to to get eaten when they got confronted with problems that required more instinctive responses.



Sybil SHOULD be scared shitless over what happened in episode 16. If Choe had simply decided to start tossing pipe bombs, most of Sybil would be dead. If kougami hadn't made the deduction that he'd made, there would have been too many latent criminals in the basement with Sybil for the one director to have dealt with. Right about now Sybil should be going into a panic attack mode, and seriously reevaluating it's place in the world...except it doesn't. Cause right after episode 16, one of their representatives cockily walks up to Makishima and proclaims that the cowering helpless brains that were nearly all murdered earlier that night are all powerful gods.


These are the great minds we're supposed to accept as effective rulers? (Urobachi obviously doesn't think so mind you).
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-22, 10:58   Link #270
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Empires collapse once the rulers start to think they are invincible, and stopped watching their backs. It's what happens when one believed their own propaganda.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-22, 17:26   Link #271
felix
sleepyhead
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
I think they're over playing the whole Makishima part though. They must be all insane if they think of him as that important.
__________________
felix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-22, 18:41   Link #272
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
I think they're over playing the whole Makishima part though. They must be all insane if they think of him as that important.
I was thinking of why they want Makishima to join their Sibyl collective sooooo badly.

And after some thought, I've come to a somewhat cynical and perhaps depressing conclusion.

These brains are bored. Very, very bored. Their use to each other's thought patterns, so that's starting to get a bit dull to them. They desperately want a "new toy" to play with. In other words, they want a new and interesting brain to join the Sibyl collective, largely out of a mixture of great scientific interest and simple entertainment need.

Makishima is like this very shiny and beautiful new toy to them.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 04:21   Link #273
apurvis99
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
Well she is human or more like he. Despite having cyborg body, it still has human brain.

Looks like country is rules by maniacs... that's messed up. Humanity sure won't be happy to find out about it.

Though how did they plan to kill Makishima with dominator if it can't read his psycho-pass? 0_o

And no, Makishima is evil no matter what he does. He killed way too many innocent people directly and indirectly. Even if his intentions might have been good, his way of dealing wasn't. He overstepped the line.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that all members of Sybil are maniacs, since it appears that Akane also has a psycho-pass that never increases. I think the qualifications are more based on people that make decisions based solely on logic without all of the frilly emotions and stuff. If you noticed in episode 18, the Chief said absolutely nothing when Akane used her dominator in stun mode. Based on this, I'm assuming that she's being lined up as a Sybil system inductee too.
apurvis99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 04:29   Link #274
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by apurvis99 View Post
I wouldn't go as far as to say that all members of Sybil are maniacs, since it appears that Akane also has a psycho-pass that never increases. I think the qualifications are more based on people that make decisions based solely on logic without all of the frilly emotions and stuff. If you noticed in episode 18, the Chief said absolutely nothing when Akane used her dominator in stun mode. Based on this, I'm assuming that she's being lined up as a Sybil system inductee too.
Akane was being by the book. She knows the rules and she follows them. The Chief can't say anything for as long as Akane stays on the straight and narrow.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 07:17   Link #275
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by apurvis99 View Post
I wouldn't go as far as to say that all members of Sybil are maniacs, since it appears that Akane also has a psycho-pass that never increases. I think the qualifications are more based on people that make decisions based solely on logic without all of the frilly emotions and stuff. If you noticed in episode 18, the Chief said absolutely nothing when Akane used her dominator in stun mode. Based on this, I'm assuming that she's being lined up as a Sybil system inductee too.
That'd be an interesting theory, except it's completely wrong. Touma says the first requirement is a mind that thinks of itself as an outsider and doesn't "Mindlessly empathize with people".

...this is NOT Akane in any sense of the word. She has an incredible amount of empathy for other people, and doesn't view herself as an outsider.

Quote:
"The first qualification to be a constituent member of the Sibyl System is to have an irregular personality that doesn't fit in with mankind's conventional standards. Without aimlessly empathizing with others, without being lost to emotion, you should be able to oversee human actions from an outsider's viewpoint. Such talent is desired.

For example, like the way you and I are.

I'm a unique person to, whose Crime Coefficient can't be determined from his Psycho-Pass. Because of that, I've experienced a great deal of loneliness. A personality that cannot be measured even by Sibyl's collective intellect is called criminally asymptomatic. Those with this personality are distinguished from all citizens and have a new ideology and sense of values. By finding such valuable people and taking them in, the system has continued to expand its range of thinking and gained new possibilities as an intellectual form."

Akane simply doesn't match up for the kind of person inducted into the Sybil system based on how Touma has described it. And outside of conjecture, there's little indication the Sybil system is inducting people who are wildly different in mentality or behavior or past actions from Touma and Makishima.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2013-02-23 at 07:36.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 08:06   Link #276
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
"Those who can't be judged by Sibyl", right? That's what Touma said.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 08:13   Link #277
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
"Those who can't be judged by Sibyl", right? That's what Touma said.
Akane is not unjudgable. She isn't hiding anything from the brain scanners. She is simply righteous, and that's it.

Akane is not above the law like those psychopaths. She is merely a truly lawful person.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 12:37   Link #278
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
I wasn't talking about Akane. I'm talking about the brains that are already in Sibyl and the type of guys they're looking for to join their ranks.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 20:47   Link #279
Quadratic
SIBYL salesman
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That'd be an interesting theory, except it's completely wrong. Touma says the first requirement is a mind that thinks of itself as an outsider and doesn't "Mindlessly empathize with people".

...this is NOT Akane in any sense of the word. She has an incredible amount of empathy for other people, and doesn't view herself as an outsider.
Except that her empathy isn't mindless, eg. explained why they shouldn't be pointing the gun at the rape victim.
Masaoka's explanation on Akane's hue (ep 13): "She accepts things as they are. She forgives society, acknowledges it, and accepts it."
Sounds like an outside view, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Akane simply doesn't match up for the kind of person inducted into the Sybil system based on how Touma has described it. And outside of conjecture, there's little indication the Sybil system is inducting people who are wildly different in mentality or behavior or past actions from Touma and Makishima.
There's a huge assumption by a few posters who think all the brains were criminals prior to being in put into the "system", therefore is the only way to be noticed.
Considering they're running the society means that some government heads is most likely in the system already and maybe even the scientists themselves, unless you consider them all criminals too.

apurvis99 is incorrect in that her psycho-pass never increases, since it did when they had to fish out Makishima's face from her memory, but the fact that she never went passed latent criminal status (when it should have) and the value rapidly decreased after being slapped back into sense, it's clear Sibyl wasn't comprehending her.
Quadratic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-23, 21:20   Link #280
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post

There's a huge assumption by a few posters who think all the brains were criminals prior to being in put into the "system", therefore is the only way to be noticed.
That's not a "huge assumption". That's a reasonable default position given what we know right now. As of right now, we only know of one way for a person to get noticed by the Sibyl collective - Be a criminal that doesn't give off a latent criminal reading.

We're not aware of any other way that Sibyl finds new members. If there is another way of finding them, then Touma neglected to inform Makishima of that, which is a curious omission, imo.

Now, is it possible that the first brains to make up Sibyl were those of the scientists and/or government heads that created the system in the first place? Sure, that's possible.

But even if so, it does seem like the only way for everybody else to get into this system is to do something criminal without setting off a latent criminal reading.

But then, in fairness, I could see Akane doing that.

Imagine the following scenario: Makishima has Ko at his mercy. Akane picked up an old-fashioned handgun that Ko was carrying before it was knocked out of his hands by Makishima. Makishima mocks Akane again, this time threatening Ko's life. Akane either shoots and kills Makishima with an old-fashioned handgun, or Ko dies. This time, Akane takes the shot. Akane kills Makishima. Her Psycho-Pass reading doesn't go up. Now she becomes interesting to Sibyl.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.