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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 28 46.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 26.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-23, 19:37   Link #81
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
Being a cantus user means you have the potential to wipe out queerats, but not that you would.
If you were in their situation, would you feel comfortable with beings walking around who could wipe you out at any time, leaving it to trust that they won't? Given their history with humans, I can't see any reason why the queerats would.
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Old 2013-02-23, 19:49   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
A relatively peaceful modern society built on the annihilation of the PK users? Killing to bring peace? I just don't see it.
Perhaps you can see it as killing to end oppression and forced regression followed by peace and harmony to end strife? It's a long term thing. Probably not something Saki'll live to see... even if she finds out how do Tokmiko's telomere trick.


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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
If the monster rats are ultimately victorious here, I see a more likely end where in the future the children the monster rats have captured and enslaved to kill the humans would someday turn on their captors and kill them all, after all they are essentially creating a weapon whose purpose is to kill.
Very good that is a real possibility. As I wrote.
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Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju View Post
the captured human infants will be taken into the queerat society. As warrior slaves/pariah, at first I'm sure. But to take on the rest of Japan to say nothing of the the world (if that's really the queerats' intention) they'll need a long term strategy to integrate humans in their society.
I should add to this that I do not think oppression, slavery nor discriminatory speciesism a good component to any long term strategy of co-existence.
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Old 2013-02-23, 19:54   Link #83
sikvod00
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Yes, I would feel just as scared and paranoid if I were in the queerats shoes. However I disagree with the idea that only choice is to commit genocide and wipe all humans off the face of the earth. The core problem here is the mere existence of Cantus. Mortals can't handle the power. Possessing it puts you at such a ridiculous advantage that you literally rocket to the top of the food chain; nothing can stop you. The optimal situation would be for the queerats to gain it themselves; not enslaving human infants, but actually having the ability themselves. If we continue using the metaphor that a PK user is like an WMD, then maybe the doctrine of mutual assured destruction would apply here. If both groups are packing equal amounts of nukes, neither would attack each other all out for fear of annihilation.
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Old 2013-02-23, 19:55   Link #84
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The fact that those children have been robbed of their identity and their parents, is more than a harsh and monstrous enough crime for them to want revenge. Let alone the fact that they'll likely be treated as weapons for war.

If they're victorious, queerats better hope the kids never come across a false minoshiro or find out the truth...
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:00   Link #85
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Well, there's no doubt it's an absolutely brutal war, with horrific war atrocities on both sides.

With this in mind, I am struck by how easily the humans in this show do mass killings of Queerats (Satoru himself has done this at least twice to my recollection). Granted, this is typically in self-defense (it was for Satoru), but there's never even a moment of self-reflection over "Wow, I just killed dozens of sentient lifeforms".

As Shisei said, the Queerats are "filth" to humans. And even the more moral and thoughtful humans like Saki and Satoru don't seem to view the killing of a Queerat as being even remotely as bad as the killing of a human.

There might have been some lies mixed in with Yakomaru's "manipulating truth", but I doubt he needed many...


To be fair, there's no truly "good side" here, no. Again, horrible atrocities on both sides.

Perhaps to some degree this narrative is a commentary on war itself. How war can become this totally destructive thing where the very thought of diplomacy is forgotten.
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:07   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, there's no doubt it's an absolutely brutal war, with horrific war atrocities on both sides.

With this in mind, I am struck by how easily the humans in this show do mass killings of Queerats (Satoru himself has done this at least twice to my recollection). Granted, this is typically in self-defense (it was for Satoru), but there's never even a moment of self-reflection over "Wow, I just killed dozens of sentient lifeforms".

As Shisei said, the Queerats are "filth" to humans. And even the more moral and thoughtful humans like Saki and Satoru don't seem to view the killing of a Queerat as being even remotely as bad as the killing of a human.

There might have been some lies mixed in with Yakomaru's "manipulating truth", but I doubt he needed many...


To be fair, there's truly no "good side" here, no. Again, horrible atrocities on both sides.

Perhaps to some degree this narrative is a commentary on war itself. How war can become this totally destructive thing where the very thought of diplomacy is forgotten.
Honestly I don't see many differences between both sides.

Squealer's hypocritical idealism, where his democracy is beautiful and egalitarian, but he is fine with lobotimizing his queen and has no issue with going back to the ways of old when it means he gets more weapons.

And the humans, who never integrated the queerats into their society simply because they had cantus and the queerats did not, which to them makes it okay to enslave them.

I can't imagine what kind of conclusion we're headed to...

Spoiler for theory on Queerat species in the past, former identity:
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:07   Link #87
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Shouldn't Shisei realize that cantus leakage would be an issue for him and just run away for now?

At least, couldn't he have non-lethaly trapped the fiend? Knocked it out? Or does death feedback prevent ANY kind of attack, even if the intent isn't death?

Crystallizing the sand into a prison would have been pretty amazing.

Unrelated ... doesn't seem odd that the 'rats can make the child a fiend? Shouldn't that be a ridiculously low probability event, even if we're talking about Mamoru's genes?
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:10   Link #88
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Originally Posted by apotheosis View Post
Shouldn't Shisei realize that cantus leakage would be an issue for him and just run away for now?

At least, couldn't he have non-lethaly trapped the fiend? Knocked it out? Or does death feedback prevent ANY kind of attack, even if the intent isn't death?

Crystallizing the sand into a prison would have been pretty amazing.

Unrelated ... doesn't seem odd that the 'rats can make the child a fiend? Shouldn't that be a ridiculously low probability event, even if we're talking about Mamoru's genes?
I'm not convinced that the child is devoid of sanity; if he was, he'd also be slaughtering queerats. It's a fiend to the humans because it's killing other humans.

But probably the child just sees himself as another queerat soldier. Or maybe he's brainwashed. Who knows...

Shisei was probably stalling for time fully knowing he'd die, but the longer he stalled the fiend, the longer people would have time to run. I think the only thing he can do due to death feedback is defend himself.
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:13   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju View Post
Very good that is a real possibility. As I wrote.

I should add to this that I do not think oppression, slavery nor discriminatory speciesism a good component to any long term strategy of co-existence.
Well then we agree, I admit it's just a theory but I see this story as some type of vicious cycle with neither side winning out in the end because each side keeps making the same mistakes over and over.
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:28   Link #90
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So the only way that the rats can achieve freedom and humanity is to kill every last human, that is essentially what you are saying.


Is the measure of superiority (both for the humans and the rats) who has the potential to kill every last one of the others species?


edit: I do understand the rats have cause to fear a human who decides to massacre them all (in the same way the humans have a fear of a fiend) but I don't think the only solution has to be "kill them all".
Well, it would have been interesting to see what would happen if the queerats decided to petition the humans for more equal rights instead of going straight to rebellion/war. Of course, there is no human that gives voice to the "abolitionist" argument that since queerats are intelligent, sentient creatures they deserve to be treated as equals, so it's a bit tough to imagine that it would be successful.

Now you could imagine that if the queerats started such a dialogue, some of the humans might come around to the queerats' position. Again, not likely, as the groupthink of the humans would be hard to overcome. But more than that, I think the human leadership would view the extension of rights to queerats as very dangerous. "If the queerats have rights, then shouldn't children as well?" people would begin to think.

This danger is the key reason that I think the queerats don't first petition the humans. Since Tomiko was willing to annihilate an entire colony for winning a battle, I think she would annihilate a colony that started protesting for equal rights, lest the danger spread (and I think Yakomaru knows this). So the only way for the queerats to successfully achieve their freedom is to rebel without first petitioning the humans. And once the queerats decide to take that step, I do think they have to kill every human Cantu user, otherwise there is a good chance they lose, which would make rebelling futile.
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Old 2013-02-23, 20:37   Link #91
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Since Tomiko was willing to annihilate an entire colony for winning a battle
She authorized the annihilation of the colony because the only way they could have won by that margin was using PK. They connected the dots in that regard. They just didn't go far enough in that line of reasoning to realize the PK user was entirely under the control of the queerats and has no human killing block.

It's interesting because the queerats used this to launch their attack. They set up the war between the queerat colonies and used PK knowing the humans would find out (and how they'd react).
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Old 2013-02-23, 21:14   Link #92
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Originally Posted by apotheosis View Post
Shouldn't Shisei realize that cantus leakage would be an issue for him and just run away for now?

At least, couldn't he have non-lethaly trapped the fiend? Knocked it out? Or does death feedback prevent ANY kind of attack, even if the intent isn't death?

Crystallizing the sand into a prison would have been pretty amazing.

Unrelated ... doesn't seem odd that the 'rats can make the child a fiend? Shouldn't that be a ridiculously low probability event, even if we're talking about Mamoru's genes?
Death feedback is something that needs to be reinforced through hyponosis. Even if they are already genetically predisposed against harming other humans, it's something they can always overcome with rational thought unless it was repeatedly engrained into their minds that it was bad.

It's not limited to Cantus or lethal attacks. The elder tested out Saki's death feedback back when she was just a child by stabbing himself. The sheer act of perceiving another human being harmed would cause your body to shut down.

And how would Shisei trap a Cantus user who can use his full powers? He can't use too much power that would harm the kid or his body would shut down from death feedback.
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Old 2013-02-23, 21:21   Link #93
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Uwaa, I step out for a day and when I come back the thread has grown 5 pages...

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Originally Posted by roon View Post
And is this really supposed to be the body of a ~10 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by roon View Post
I'm also curious if Squealer took Maria and Mamoru in under false pretenses, then offed them once Maria gave birth to a child. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised... and I think that's the 'best' scenario for their deaths given the situation.
I also think this is what happened, which would also explain why nobody found Maria and Mamoru during all that time. (The anime forgot to mention this, but the bones were brought in 2-3 years after their disappearance.)

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Very curious about what Saki's parents left her. I'm also assuming the person who wants to see Saki and Satoru is Kiroumaru.
No, that was Inui. We'll see in the next ep what Kiroumaru is doing right now.

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And, that wasn't Maria ? I was sure the fiend(apparently a 'he' ) was Maria for like half the episode.
Well, they're pretty obviously trying to overlap the kid with Maria for some reason, so... (He is supposed to resemble her, but not to the point where anyone would go "omg Maria?!" at seeing him. I mean, he's a ~10 year-old boy.) I don't get why, but I just hope Saki won't start having some anime original angst over him instead of what she's supposed to be thinking/angsting about.

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Add me to the people who didn't quite understand how the child defeated Shiisei, and what that's got to do with cantus leakage.
The boy defeated him by using his power to kill him, end of story. Satoru said that while Shisei can't kill the kid due to being physically unable to harm another human, the boy basically uses his power unconsciously that is, it doesn't go through the usual "channels" so his genetic blocks on harming/killing another human don't activate. This is why Saki had the flashback about Shun: with gouma it's their uncontrollable power leakage that harms their environment. Back then, when Shisei went to visit the class, he sensed the leakage from Shun, which is why he immediately left and ordered the teacher to dismiss the entire class. Akki are supposed to be working the same way.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
A relatively peaceful modern society built on the annihilation of the PK users? Killing to bring peace? I just don't see it.

If the monster rats are ultimately victorious here, I see a more likely end where in the future the children the monster rats have captured and enslaved to kill the humans would someday turn on their captors and kill them all, after all they are essentially creating a weapon whose purpose is to kill.
And so we come to a full circle. Some people here are rooting for the bakenezumi because the human society is so rotten. Except, what do we have here? A bakenezumi society that's been warring among itself and enslaving its own members from the start, including little larvae/pups (or whatever their young are called ). And now they're trying to win their freedom and bring "justice" down on humans by... enslaving human children to use them as weapons to wipe out their own kind. Oops. (To say nothing about mutants, sacrificed soldiers, lobotomized queens and why that had to happen in the first place and so on.)

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And the humans, who never integrated the queerats into their society simply because they had cantus and the queerats did not, which to them makes it okay to enslave them.
Well, that's not really correct. Humans didn't dismiss bakenezumi because they didn't have the power humans had. It was because bakenezumi are... bakenezumi. It's like expecting our society to "integrate" chimpanzees or bonobos or dolphins. That's how the humans in the show see the bakenezumi: animals. Exceptionally intelligent animals, but animals nonetheless. (Very repulsive animals at that, for all their intelligence.) Note that the majority of humans have very little contact with bakenezumi, so it's not like they know about what they're up to re: "democracy" and all that.

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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Since Tomiko was willing to annihilate an entire colony for winning a battle,
She didn't decide to annihilate them because they won a battle. That was because the colony in question lied to the humans and pretty much destroyed another colony that happened to be the most loyal to humans.

I really hope they won't cut certain parts that further emphasize the differences between Kiroumaru and Squealer, and underscore why the two are such great foils for each other...

Also, random observation: it's been 5 pages and still nobody thought about what could be the reason behind Maria's name? xD (And maybe Mamoru's, too, though perhaps I'm just overthinking it.) She gave birth to the bakenezumi's Messiah... (and look what happened to her)

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-02-23 at 22:05.
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Old 2013-02-23, 22:13   Link #94
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The boy defeated him by using his power to kill him, end of story. Satoru said that while Shisei can't kill the kid due to being physically unable to harm another human, the boy basically uses his power unconsciously that is, it doesn't go through the usual "channels" so his genetic blocks on harming/killing another human don't activate. This is why Saki had the flashback about Shun: with gouma it's their uncontrollable power leakage that harms their environment. Back then, when Shisei went to visit the class, he sensed the leakage from Shun, which is why he immediately left and ordered the teacher to dismiss the entire class. Akki are supposed to be working the same way.
Ah, thank you. If they'd just skipped that entire dialogue, I wouldn't have been confused. (Now I have to re-watch that dialogue to make sense of it. What was Saki thinking? Surely, she can't have missed that the boy was killing people effortlessly left and right. The specific mechanics, the "how", don't seem especially relevant in a let's-run situation.)
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Old 2013-02-23, 22:25   Link #95
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Spoiler for Nimi-San:


Thanks in advance and loving this series of course! They can't roll out these episodes fast enough! ~(;_-)~~~**

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Old 2013-02-23, 22:32   Link #96
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@kuromitsu ... so the name Maria signifies that she is the Madonna/Virgin Mary? Is that why we have the overly gratuitous scenes revolving around Saint Maria in the series? If Maria died as a kind of "sacrifice" and her child is likened to the savior ... does this mean he will "crucify" himself as well before the end of the series? The only significance I see in the name "Mamoru" is the meaning of "to protect". But I deconstruct that on so many levels - he needed protection from Kamisu's 66th District or tainted cats; protection by Maria; protection because he couldn't handle the truth like Saki (and thus his emotional meltdown, etc). Sorry, trying to prattle this out since you are the Great Seer of Shinsekai Yori!

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Old 2013-02-23, 23:03   Link #97
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
She authorized the annihilation of the colony because the only way they could have won by that margin was using PK. They connected the dots in that regard. They just didn't go far enough in that line of reasoning to realize the PK user was entirely under the control of the queerats and has no human killing block.

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She didn't decide to annihilate them because they won a battle. That was because the colony in question lied to the humans and pretty much destroyed another colony that happened to be the most loyal to humans.
I went back and rewatched to make sure I wasn't misremembering, and it's actually unclear why the committee decides to exterminate the Robber Fly colony and all its allies (maybe the novel fleshes this out better).

It is true that they suspect that a Cantu user allied with the Robber Fly colony might be responsible. But if they truly believed a Cantu user was the cause, it's a bit weird that they seem unconcerned at finding out who it could have been. The discussion about the nature of the Robber Fly victory seems to cut off mid-debate, and then we are next shown the Wildlife Team being given their orders (no mention that they should discover who the Cantu user was). So it's difficult to point to a specific reason.


Another interesting thing about the meeting is that there appears to be a contradiction in what we are told/shown:

Satoru: there was nothing that could be called a weapon [on the battlefield].
Shisei: the battlefield had been wiped clean of possible evidence.
Shisei: I have my own theory regarding [the Robber Fly victory], but as I have no proof I'd like to present it last.

Yet later on Shisei brings in several undamaged arrows he says he found on the battlefield, and implies that there were more arrows left behind. That simply doesn't make sense considering what Satoru and Shisei reported earlier, and Shisei's claim that he doesn't have any proof. Undamaged arrows would be quite valuable to the Robber Fly colony, in addition to being evidence of their manner of victory. Author screw-up, or something else?
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Old 2013-02-23, 23:20   Link #98
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Spoiler for Questions:
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Old 2013-02-23, 23:40   Link #99
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It seems totally hopeless for humans right now, but I think Kiroumaru will play a key part and kill the fiend. I remember someone saying that before Kiroumaru's army going to war they take some kind of drug. The only choice available is to have someone powerful enough to stall the fiend and let Kiroumaru kill him. I don't know if it possible though, still don't quite get the idea of Cantus and death feedback. If only humans can't kill other humans, maybe why don't let Queerats kill the fiend? Arrows, guns, poison or whatever used by Queerats are possible, no?

About Yakomaru's grand scheme, even he successes in annihilation of humans and building an army of fiends, Queerats will never rule the world. Because Queerats don't process power like fiends do. Someday, fiends will rebel against Queerats. The reason is simple, fiends are superior in power and they are physically different. If Queerats really know history of humans, why would he still rebel knowing that there was a history of racism?

Last edited by Frizby; 2013-02-23 at 23:54.
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Old 2013-02-23, 23:58   Link #100
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
And is this really supposed to be the body of a ~10 year old boy?
Anime never fails to amuse me with how they render ages. I thought Saki and co. were slightly believable at 12, but 14...? Not so much

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
No, that was Inui. We'll see in the next ep what Kiroumaru is doing right now.
Ah right, I mixed those scenes in my memory because it was late. Kiroumaru doesn't look like he's in such great shape, but still good to see him alive nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Also, random observation: it's been 5 pages and still nobody thought about what could be the reason behind Maria's name? xD (And maybe Mamoru's, too, though perhaps I'm just overthinking it.) She gave birth to the bakenezumi's Messiah... (and look what happened to her)
Mamoru's name crossed my mind in how hilarious it is for someone like him to have that name (as sonagi points out), but Maria's never did until you mentioned it. It fits quite well, overthinking or no. I'll have to hunt down interviews with the author to see if it was on purpose.


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Spoiler for Nimi-San:
They split up from him so he could announce the warning and play the 'going home' record. The black and white shots were of the past, the song helping evoke memories of a once idyllic life, deeply contrasted with the shots of the destruction at present time. Also, I got the impression that the song looped when it shouldn't have, which records can't do on their own, thus how they knew Niimi died as the music ended abruptly. (On this note, I'm pretty sure you can't loop that part of the song so cleanly, but maybe powers help )
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