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Old 2013-02-19, 07:16   Link #241
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Chaos means chance that something would go wrong. But I do agree that you need chaos to make improvements.

The concept of perfection is that in theory it never needs to change... But we both know there is no such thing. So you are right that chaos is needed for unexpected improvements to pop up and be adopted. But those who only care about Order and keeping everything stable would think otherwise.
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Old 2013-02-20, 06:07   Link #242
zeando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
RogerRambo quoted the relevant Touma dialogue over in the ep 17 thread:
Quote:
"The first qualification to be a constituent member of the Sibyl System is to have an irregular personality that doesn't fit in with mankind's conventional standards. Without aimlessly empathizing with others, without being lost to emotion, you should be able to oversee human actions from an outsider's viewpoint. Such talent is desired.

For example, like the way you and I are.

I'm a unique person to, whose Crime Coefficient can't be determined from his Psycho-Pass. Because of that, I've experienced a great deal of loneliness. A personality that cannot be measured even by Sibyl's collective intellect is called criminally asymptomatic. Those with this personality are distinguished from all citizens and have a new ideology and sense of values. By finding such valuable people and taking them in, the system has continued to expand its range of thinking and gained new possibilities as an intellectual form."
But then, the first paragraph gives the first requirement for joining the Sybil system, which presumably goes for all of the brains recruited, and that is somebody who does not "aimlessly empathise" with others, and looks upon other people from the perspective of an "outsider" rather than as another human being. A lack of empathy and seeing oneself as superior and separate can both be symptoms of psychopathy. Sybil brains are also required to have "irregular personalities" and not fit in with mankinds "conventional standards". Added to Touma's later statements in the quote, that makes it sound as if Sybil really is made up primarily of psychopaths.
that "superior" popped out of nowhere,
if you're being referencing what touma said about his god complex, also remember as touma himself said they retain their individual thinking, so it's stated nowhere they all have the same exact viewpoint about the sibyl, rather it's the exact opposite since each member is supposed to be different from the others, so touma could even be the only one to have a god complex (i'm extremizing, but using association from touma to all the others is what i'm not agreeing with)
i'm using some quotes too
Quote:
touma: "of course, this(being added) would not impede upon your indipendence as an individual.
In fact, as you can see, I'm still maintaining a sense of my self as Kouzabuorou Touma."
what is stated as requirements are: irregular personality, without aimlessly empathizing with others, without being lost to emotion, oversee human actions from an outsider's viewpoint.
the symptoms of psychopathy are: shallow emotions, coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle (from wiki)

so psychopathy includes the requirements of the sibyl system, making so touma and shouma fit, but has also lots of other symptoms the sibyl doesn't requires
and most arguments/opinions using the "all brains are psychopaths" make use of the full list of symptoms of psychopathy, adding so traits like criminality=compulsive violence, which are not stated anywhere in the show as being "desired talents"

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Are they all "criminally asymptomatic", and how do they find out? Well...in Makishima and Touma's cases, they know they're criminally asymptomatic because they do horrible things and get caught in the act, and yet their psycho-pass does not react to it. If they never do anything horrible, how can they be criminally asymptomatic?
doing horrible things as the only trait of "criminally asymptomatic" is an assumption, understandable cause the only "criminally asymptomatic" we've seen so far were shouma, a sick manipulator who "enjoys life", and touma who had fun turning people in distorted sculptures, but it's still an assumption

"criminally asymptomatic" should only mean what touma said
Quote:
A personality that cannot be measured even by Sibyl's collective intellect is called criminally asymptomatic
which means having the crime coefficient not increasing when "doing" or "being about" to do some "crime"
the "doing horrible things" is mostly limited to acts already done, while we've seen in the serie(sadly only/mostly at the start) cases where people were hunted down or got a crime coefficient before they came to do crimes (while in the rest of the serie the psycho-pass was only used to track down already happened crimes :/)

an other very important part is what is considered a crime by the sibyl, like all those people being imprisoned as latent criminals, or some enforcers, like masaoka and yayoi
so being "criminally asymptomatic" in those cases doesn't require neither a "doing horrible things", and like for the "illegal music" for yayoi, there are plenty of ways to get caught in the act while doing some "crime" by the sibyl standards
and if there was any of the people caught in the act while clearly doing something "illegal" but having a clear hue, wouldn't them be "criminally asymptomatic" too?

i personally think yes
and given the ammount of latent criminals imprisoned, suggesting very strict law about anything we normally don't consider a crime, i would think non-violent crimes are more frequent than violent crimes in the sibyl world compared to the real world, making so possible to have more peaceful/no-violent "criminally asymptomatic" (again for crimes we normally wouldn't even consider crimes) than violent "criminally asymptomatic" like shouma and touma

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
It's possible that later on we'll get information to contradict this, but right now I think we're supposed to be inferring that Sybil is psychopathic. (And even the title of the series...Psycho-Pass = psychopaths. Very unsubtle!)
eh, i was fearing someone was really using the title as part of the reasoning..... >_<'
i was instead inferring that full psychopaths are the weak point/flaw of the sibyl system, on a systemic point of view, not morally or philosophically
that aside i'm not a big fan of the "follow what the author says" "think what the author wants you to think", if while watching a show i end up doing so that's a merit of the author for exposing well his/her theme, if not i don't feel the need to adapt to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Even in a best-case scenario, I think that the human society here in Psycho-Pass will eventually suffer the same fate. When you put social harmony and stability above everything else, to the degree that you don't even try to achieve some sort of balance between that and potential for societal evolution, you run a serious risk of stagnation.
a question would be then , what is the use of societal evolution?
because if one sees it as being the mean to reach social harmony and stability, the moment you reach those you no longer need the mean, or not as much, if not for other minor aims
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Old 2013-02-20, 06:23   Link #243
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post


a question would be then , what is the use of societal evolution?
because if one sees it as being the mean to reach social harmony and stability, the moment you reach those you no longer need the mean, or not as much, if not for other minor aims
Well, let me ask you a simple question then: Are you glad we have the internet?

If the world achieved nigh-perfect social harmony by 1960, and it continued on for several decades after that, would the necessary impetus had existed for the internet to come into existence in the 80s and 90s?

In many cases, inventions are created because people see holes and problems in society that need to be fixed. Or human vulnerabilities/weaknesses that need to be alleviated. This isn't true for all inventions, but it's true for a great many of them.

I'm not saying that social harmony isn't valuable. It certainly is. But if it comes about by artificial means, by "dumbing down" or sheepifying the people, then it's really a false social harmony.
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Old 2013-02-20, 06:51   Link #244
zeando
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@tripleR sure i'm glad internet exist, but i'm sad or depressed with not it? can't i live without it? is it required for my living happily?
absolutely not
(also, i've seen that reply being used some times, but it's basically just changing subject)

so you're agreeing with me that inventions, coming from societal evolution, are needed to "fix holes and problems in society people see in" or to "alleviate human vulnerabilities/weaknesses"?
and isn't the lack of those problems, part of "social harmony and stability" ?

Quote:
I'm not saying that social harmony isn't valuable. It certainly is. But if it comes about by artificial means, by "dumbing down" or sheepifying the people, then it's really a false social harmony.
and i agree with that,
but if it comes with no artificial means, with no false social harmony?

Last edited by zeando; 2013-02-20 at 07:02.
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Old 2013-02-20, 06:52   Link #245
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by zeando View Post
rather it's the exact opposite since each member is supposed to be different from the others
They didn't say anything about the people Sybil takes in having to be different from the others. They did specify that they had to possess certain specified characteristics. So, it's not possible that they're picking from a wide selection of different people. They may be choosing selectively between people who are in the categories they require; for example, I doubt they would be choosing someone with those characteristics who is obviously really, really stupid. Touma mentioned that Makishima's "high intellect and deep insight" (coupled with him fitting into the prerequisites) was why Sibyl wanted him.

It's possible that Sybil is picking "no/low empathy+ people who see themselves as outside observers + irregular personalities + outside acceptable human conventions" people who are not psychopaths, but unless and until future info adds something to this, I think it's likely that they're predominantly picking psychopaths.

Touma is not saying this outright, but he is not someone who would say "Makishima, the Sybil system wants to recruit really intellectual psychopaths". What he would say (if that is how the system is) is...pretty much what he actually did say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
eh, i was fearing someone was really using the title as part of the reasoning..... >_<'
No, that's not part of the reasoning. It's something which becomes groan-inducingly unsubtle after seeing that the Sybil system is probably made of psychopaths. (Really, Urobuchi?)
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Old 2013-02-20, 07:13   Link #246
zeando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
They didn't say anything about the people Sybil takes in having to be different from the others.
they stated:
Quote:
Those with this personality are distinguished from all citizens and have a new ideology and sense of values.
Quote:
By finding such valuable people and taking them in, the system has continued to expand its range of thinking and gained new possibilities as an intellectual form.
would you think they would add someone who is no different from the people/brains already in the system?
someone who would add no "new ideology and sense of values", and who would not "expand its range of thinking and gained new possibilities"?

i'm taking the requirements for granted, i'm talking about what is left from the requirements
or else it would be like saying that all the people doing the same work are all similarly minded, and untill proven otherwise all teachers think the same, all janitors think the same, all mechanical engineers think the same, and so on..

i'm not saying you're not allowed to think they're all psychos and stuff (=as saying you're incorrect or wrong) , it could even be possible, just you're sort of the first one clearly saying you like better to think so, while others looked so sure about it

Last edited by zeando; 2013-02-20 at 07:53.
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Old 2013-02-21, 15:45   Link #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
doing horrible things as the only trait of "criminally asymptomatic" is an assumption, understandable cause the only "criminally asymptomatic" we've seen so far were shouma, a sick manipulator who "enjoys life", and touma who had fun turning people in distorted sculptures, but it's still an assumption

"criminally asymptomatic" should only mean what touma said

which means having the crime coefficient not increasing when "doing" or "being about" to do some "crime"
The big problem we have here is, that so far there is no definitive, outspoken definition of what the crime coefficient is. This seems to confuse a whole lot of people.
I think the most sensible thing to assume by how it is depicted so far is that it is somehow related to brain function. Similar to how brain scans, heart rate detectors and lie detectors today measure biological changes and relate them to how a respectable amount of other peoples' data looked in the same situation, the crime coefficient seems to be based on some form of bio-scan that results in the form of a number.
This would also explain how the term criminally asymptomatic is meant, which is people who fail to show a certain biological and psychological reaction similar to the majority of society. This is pretty much shown by how the helmet person who killed the woman he stalked copied the coefficient of people around him, who were so disabled of accepting criminal brutality as a part of reality, that they did not react to it being shown.

And this plays into another point I wanted to address:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
It's possible that Sybil is picking "no/low empathy+ people who see themselves as outside observers + irregular personalities + outside acceptable human conventions" people who are not psychopaths, but unless and until future info adds something to this, I think it's likely that they're predominantly picking psychopaths.
What does criminally asymptomatic imply?
It is not people who are criminal psychopaths, remember those are eliminated on order of Sybil, they fall right into the category of criminally symptomatic people, they show all symptoms of being psychotic as dictated by the Sybil System.
Criminally asymptomatic are those who fail to be inserted into this system, it's the people who fail to count as dangerous to the system, yet think outside of it. People like Oryou Rikako or Senguji Toyohisa, basically all the people who Makishima used may be psychotic, but they are apparently of no interest to the Sybil System, they are dangerous and destructive and add nothing else to society.

The question is, what does Sybil do with the brains?
I wouldn't even assume that it runs completely on those brains, as that would imply that Sybil would have functioned 'improperly' from it's creators perspective in the beginning. I'd rather say that Sybil improves it's view on society based on the input it gets from it's new brains and can use these perspectives to judge events.
Why would a system need this? If Sybil was actually a system based only on the emotional processing of data, then perspective thinking would lack from the system. Adding different "perspective lenses" to the system that are not filtered by unnecessary emotion increases it's ability to govern humans who are still impaired by pesky emotional baggage.
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Old 2013-02-22, 04:08   Link #248
Moe Connection
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I think that the reason why people like Makishima Shougo can't actually be judged is because basically the ones who does the judging can't even judge themselves.They themselves have a twisted sense of morality in the first place.
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Old 2013-02-24, 05:44   Link #249
Traece
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
I think that the reason why people like Makishima Shougo can't actually be judged is because basically the ones who does the judging can't even judge themselves.They themselves have a twisted sense of morality in the first place.
I think it's simpler than that. It's supposed to be somewhat of a mirror of psychopathy. That thing about lie detector tests and such where it can't be detected as a lie if your body doesn't react to it because you either believe what you're saying or the act of lying is inconsequential to you.

They can't be judged because they have no ethics, or morality. Their idea of right and wrong only stems from society, and only if they choose to try and make it their own.

In theory, I can see how that would make for a great judge in the Sibyl System. These people that lack emotions and ethics, who are cold and calculating. Nothing to get in the way of them looking at someone who is a potential threat to society and saying that they are indeed a threat, even if they have a family and a reason for their madness.
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Old 2013-02-24, 05:49   Link #250
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
In theory, I can see how that would make for a great judge in the Sibyl System. These people that lack emotions and ethics, who are cold and calculating. Nothing to get in the way of them looking at someone who is a potential threat to society and saying that they are indeed a threat, even if they have a family and a reason for their madness.
That doesn't translate at all. If you don't care about society then you won't care about making it better. To have no stakes in what you rule over means there is no reason why you can't make a mess of it for personal enjoyment.

See, what you are after is someone who would obey the law and not let emotions get in the way. But if you hire psychos you just get people who don't care about emotions OR law.

What you want isn't a psychopath, but a law abiding citizen like Akane. Someone who obey the law despite her emotions. Not because she don't have emotions, but because she actually care about the rule of law.

Trying to hire psychos is actually faulty logic. A judge needs to follow rule of law. Being a psychopath does NOT make you lawful. And if you are okay with unlawful people being judges? You get the Sibyl system. Breaking rules left and right because it wants to. Because it doesn't care.
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Old 2013-02-24, 06:24   Link #251
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They don't even care about their own survival. How messed up is that?
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Old 2013-02-24, 06:25   Link #252
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They don't even care about their own survival. How messed up is that?
Actually that might be due to their over-confidence. The possibility of defeat is so far away from their minds that they now think they are invincible.
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Old 2013-02-24, 17:51   Link #253
Traece
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That doesn't translate at all. If you don't care about society then you won't care about making it better. To have no stakes in what you rule over means there is no reason why you can't make a mess of it for personal enjoyment.
I don't see how at any point anyone would get the impression that the Sybil System wants to make society better. It seemed pretty obvious to me that this wasn't the motivation. More or less, this entire show is evidence that this is not the case.

Quote:
See, what you are after is someone who would obey the law and not let emotions get in the way. But if you hire psychos you just get people who don't care about emotions OR law.
You're wrong, factually. Psychopaths aren't people who don't care about law. A person who has little to no emotions, and who can judge people based purely on judgement and not emotion, makes for the perfect unbiased judge. No matter what you've done, if you've done wrong you are punished. That's the difference between having someone with no sympathy judge you and a normal person.

Quote:
Trying to hire psychos is actually faulty logic. A judge needs to follow rule of law. Being a psychopath does NOT make you lawful. And if you are okay with unlawful people being judges? You get the Sibyl system. Breaking rules left and right because it wants to. Because it doesn't care.
Being a psycho doesn't make you unlawful either. It helps to have a basic understanding of what it means to have that mental condition. In all respects, the Sybil System does work. Occasionally something goes wrong, but then the problem is solved and the Sybil System becomes stronger for it. We've seen how society works under the Sybil System, and it does technically work. At no point in time during the course of this series have I ever said to myself, "This Sybil System thing doesn't work." I've acknowledged that there's a conspiracy behind it, but even now I still don't feel that it wasn't doing what it intended.
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Old 2013-02-24, 18:16   Link #254
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
You're wrong, factually. Psychopaths aren't people who don't care about law. A person who has little to no emotions, and who can judge people based purely on judgement and not emotion, makes for the perfect unbiased judge. No matter what you've done, if you've done wrong you are punished. That's the difference between having someone with no sympathy judge you and a normal person.
They may be unemotional, but they are certainly heavily biased, to themselves. Psychopaths are know to be extremely egoistical. They may appear to follow the law to fit in society for their own ulterior benefit. They don't care about the law nor society around them, they care about themselves period. If following (or pretending to follow) the law and acting like an overall nice guy is currently beneficial to them, they'll do it. Even if they do tend to be an excellent judge of other people's character, it's all about themselves in the end, so I also can't see how a bunch of psychopaths monitoring society can lead to a good thing for the masses.
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Old 2013-02-24, 18:49   Link #255
Traece
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
They may be unemotional, but they are certainly heavily biased, to themselves. Psychopaths are know to be extremely egoistical. They may appear to follow the law to fit in society for their own ulterior benefit. They don't care about the law nor society around them, they care about themselves period. If following (or pretending to follow) the law and acting like an overall nice guy is currently beneficial to them, they'll do it. Even if they do tend to be an excellent judge of other people's character, it's all about themselves in the end, so I also can't see how a bunch of psychopaths monitoring society can lead to a good thing for the masses.
It should be pretty easy to see how. They made an anime about it. It's called Psycho-Pass. Something about a large quantity of psychopaths given the job of observing and imposing their god-like will on society. They can enjoy their god-like statuses and toy with the masses as they see. In fact, they do do this. It's also not a stretch to believe they would enjoy building their little community like they are.

It's a downside, undeniably. The thing to look at is that the majority of the time the system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
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Old 2013-02-24, 19:39   Link #256
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
It should be pretty easy to see how. They made an anime about it. It's called Psycho-Pass. Something about a large quantity of psychopaths given the job of observing and imposing their god-like will on society. They can enjoy their god-like statuses and toy with the masses as they see. In fact, they do do this. It's also not a stretch to believe they would enjoy building their little community like they are.

It's a downside, undeniably. The thing to look at is that the majority of the time the system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
You call that a good thing for the masses?
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