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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 28 46.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 26.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-02-25, 23:03   Link #161
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
But yeah, Squealer intending to raise an army of fiends? Well good luck with that, as quite likely one of them will go full crazy mode and kill his entire colony. XD
And that's kind of the rub, isn't it? How would he deal with a Karma Demon? It took a high level user to even notice Shun was slipping. Fiends simply snap. What Maria's child is, is not a fiend. It's a human raised around the rats, and possibly not for its entire life.

This event is known as a Feral Child:

Quote:
Feral children lack the basic social skills that are normally learned in the process of enculturation. For example, they may be unable to learn to use a toilet, have trouble learning to walk upright and display a complete lack of interest in the human activity around them. They often seem mentally impaired and have almost insurmountable trouble learning a human language. The impaired ability to learn a formal language after having been isolated for so many years is often attributed to the existence of a critical period for language learning, and taken as evidence in favor of the critical period hypothesis.
Maria's child:

1. Can barely communicate
2. Barely walks like a human
3. Has no concern or interest in human activity
4. Acts much younger than a child of his age
5. Barely dresses - even many Queerats are fully clothed.

The question is, is Death Feedback actually genetic? The description of a fiend is that they power through it, but what if "it" is just the hypnotic suggestions of sealing the Cantus to begin with? Going back to when Saki first gained her powers, stuff was flying all over the place. School was just as much about teaching control as it was to see who couldn't control themselves. We discover later that taking and restoring powers is as simple as a mantra and some hypnotic suggestion, ditto with memory alteration. And we know how strong those alterations are. Who is to say that the society self imposes mental restraints, and the myth is that they are genetic?

As we know, PK power evolved a lot over the centuries, so why take the words of an out of date library archive and some passed down traditions of a society fearful of the past reoccurring?

My theory is that fiends are people who break all mental conditioning, and simply lash out consciously at anything that bothers them. They're insane, so the rules of the mind no longer apply. Karma Demons are people who have powers that grow too quickly for the conscious mind to adjust, and it is no longer able to control subconscious thought.

Conscious thought is about being aware of everything in any given moment, like noticing the birds chirping or writing a paper.

Subconscious thought is all of the information you are unaware of. For example, you don't really think about breathing, or beating your heart. It's a sort of autopilot filter so your conscious mind isn't overloaded with tasks.

In computer terms, think of conscious like active programs, and subconscious like background programs. You need both to function properly, and both are active at the same time. They both pull from each other to form "you".

But Maria's child is not insane, nor is he subconsciously acting out. He has had none of the restraints human society puts upon him, and none of the lavishness or culture that the Queerats might imprint on him. He acts completely like a feral child.

We all presume that Yakomaru found Maria and took the baby after, but it's also possible that they had the child out in the wild, died for whatever reason (it's never stated how or when exactly they died, just that the bones were found years later), and the child simply fended for itself until Yakomaru's forces found it one day. Perhaps he really had no plan to use the child until then. We've been talking up his possible use of a false minoshiro, but if anyone remembers, it suffered a lot of gaps in specific knowledge. He may have intended to fight using "conventional" weaponry, but stumbled upon the child and realized what he had.

We can say he was hedging his bets by using so much force, but what if he had never planned to use the child initially, had built up all of his other weapons, and decided that it was better to go with shock and awe instead of putting all his hopes on one "weapon"?

But I digress. For all of this "what if", it's obvious the story is relying on these plot elements not for themselves, but to construct a commentary. None of it is perfectly logical, the anime of course skips many details, and everything is focused more on the impression events leave on you than the mechanics of the world itself.
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Old 2013-02-26, 03:12   Link #162
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
False, as we saw the random dude in the field kill another human being using his Cantu
Because he thought he was killing a bakenezumi.

Seriously, do they need to write it out in huge blinking letters on the screen?

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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
This is true, since the anime does not offer a clear explanation.
Just... rewatch the minoshiro's explanation of how the thing works. It has all the information you need to know.

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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Also, "feedback" (if the Japanese really means this) implies that whatever is being output is returned to the source. In other words, if you use your Cantu to harm another living creature, your Cantu returns the same harm to you.
FWIW "kishi kikou" literally means "'dying of shame' mechanism," as the deed it is a result of is shameful and dying because of it is regarded as the most shameful thing for a human. The implications are obvious.

As for the rest I'm not touching it, but just a correction:

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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
And if not a hundred years prior, definitely 10 years ago whenever they only escaped destruction because Shun decided to kill himself.
...
Saki's society has had decades to contemplate this question, and the best they have come up with is: give him some pills and hope he kills himself.
Shun was a gouma, not an akki. There are numerous differences between the two which affect their "killability"...

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
We all presume that Yakomaru found Maria and took the baby after, but it's also possible that they had the child out in the wild, died for whatever reason (it's never stated how or when exactly they died, just that the bones were found years later), and the child simply fended for itself until Yakomaru's forces found it one day. Perhaps he really had no plan to use the child until then.
The bones were brought in 2-3 years after Maria & Mamoru disappeared. Meaning that, even if she got pregnant right away, adding the nine months of pregnancy, etc. the kid would've been cca 2 years old, max at that time. A 1-2 year-old child can't fend for himself alone in the wild, it can barely even walk...

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-02-26 at 04:51. Reason: thought of a more correct translation of "kishi"
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Old 2013-02-26, 03:32   Link #163
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The question is, is Death Feedback actually genetic?
Part of it, at least, is. As I said before, I suspect that the people who developed it did not or could not put a definition of "human" into the feedback. So they left it to the adults of that society to condition the kids in who counted as "human."
Since the queerats almost certainly skipped that part of his conditioning, that kid doesn't see the people he's killing as "human." So the feedback doesn't kick in.
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Old 2013-02-26, 09:07   Link #164
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My initial point, which admittedly may have gotten lost in this thread, is that a society that has survived one fiend--and completely changed itself in order to prevent the rise of another--should have come up with a way to stop an arisen fiend long ago. It is not believable that an unstoppable fiend arises in Saki's time, because society should have developed countermeasures a hundred years prior.
Agreed 100%. Also, the Board of Education can suppress any child who shows signs of rebellion up to the age of 17. But 17 is just a conventional threshold. Some kids mature faster, some slower. What if a kid goes bonkers at 17 years and 1 day? They are all f***ed.

And are you going to trust that the nearby villages are as scrupolous as you are in nurturing their children? It's not believable that they don't have an emergency plan against akki.
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Old 2013-02-26, 09:30   Link #165
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It's not believable that they don't have an emergency plan against akki.


The education board was almost "too careful" to make sure a fiend did not occur. This is why they took such drastic measures with the children in the first place. Any slight sign that a child might turn into a fiend was eliminated. That was their plan.

Was it a good plan? Perhaps not! But saying it is not believable that they didn't come up with a better plan it a bit unfair because it is perfectly believable that they didn't think every possible scenario through (especially if you see the circumstances of this akki, it is not something they thought possible. Hence why Saki said but the board was so careful.) The plan was to stop it before it happened. They had a preventive measure not a defense. That doesn't mean there isn't a way to stop this fiend.

Also keep in mind that the "the death feedback" is to make sure no one kills each other with their PK but to make it work it has to be not kill at all . Again this is an extreme measure that obviously does have a significant draw back but I think it is to show us that no plan is perfect. Also it gives a pretty negative impression of humanity that the only way to stop violence amongst ourselves is to make us basically defenseless or in other words to get something you have to give up something else.
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Old 2013-02-26, 10:27   Link #166
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Agreed 100%. Also, the Board of Education can suppress any child who shows signs of rebellion up to the age of 17. But 17 is just a conventional threshold. Some kids mature faster, some slower. What if a kid goes bonkers at 17 years and 1 day? They are all f***ed.
You have to draw a line somewhere. It's the same idea as officially becoming an adult and consequently being legally able to do stuff like drinking and smoking when you're 18 (or 21 or whatever it is in your country). Even though you're not any more wise or responsible than you were the day before.

Also, the idea is that if you have survived what counts as the most hectic part of life (puberty) with no problems with your power, reacted well to all that hypnotism and mind-manipulation and your mind is as stable as it can be, then the chances that you go bonkers after a certain time are basically zero. Back when people were building this society, they found that personality assessments/power tests, etc. (aka what they do in school) can pinpoint potentially dangerous individuals with an almost 100% accuracy. (There's also the fact that with akki and gouma they're looking for specific signs: problems with controlling one's power, signs of mental disturbance, etc.) Add to this all that effort to curb/derail violent instincts and make people more docile, plus the bonobo effect and the aggression/killing blocks, which they thought was a 100% protection. Later on it turned out that even that wasn't enough, which is when they started to get really drastic about children, and lo and behold, it's been more than 200 years since the last akki incident.

One point where this can be screwed up was already mentioned by Tomiko: removing individuals from the system like they did with Group 1. She made a very risky gamble (but one that was very much needed) and feels that this decision is what eventually led to Shun's tragedy and the incident with Mamoru and Maria which, as the viewers and now Saki & Satoru are well aware of, caused the current problem. And of course there are some other things as well, some of which we already know and some that will be revealed in time, and eventually the whys and wherefores should become obvious.

Just one thing: I really don't understand why some viewers here are expecting perfection instead of people doing the best they can under the given circumstances, and then spending their lives hoping that it was enough (especially with all we've seen so far). That's what we have been doing since we became sentient. There are elements in history that seem ridiculous/horrifying/plain stupid when we think back on them now (with our current knowledge and hindsight), but back then the people who made the decisions thought it was the best they could come up with. ("Back then it seemed like a good idea...") Nobody is perfect, nobody is omniscient. Also, time goes on. Theories become obsolete. Science marches on. And so on and so on.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-02-26 at 10:38.
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Old 2013-02-26, 12:42   Link #167
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Indeed. The system actually worked fine for 200 years. That's a long time. My country (Canada) only celebrated its bicentennial last year (2012).

Clearly there ended up being a problem with it which we can see _now_ but they couldn't have known better (and they were testing new ideas even though it was risky from what they knew).
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Old 2013-02-26, 13:38   Link #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
Agreed 100%. Also, the Board of Education can suppress any child who shows signs of rebellion up to the age of 17. But 17 is just a conventional threshold. Some kids mature faster, some slower. What if a kid goes bonkers at 17 years and 1 day? They are all f***ed.
There's no real way to quantify "maturity". When we adults talk about how "mature" a kid or teenager is, we're like a pro sports talent scout carefully evaluating a particular ability or skill and trying to measure that against a certain pro/adult level image we have in our mind. So even for the best and most thoroughly analytical of minds, there's going to be an element of subjectivity and uncertainty to it. And you don't want even that level of subjectivity to play a role in determining who has human rights and who doesn't.

So like kuromitsu said, you have to draw a line somewhere. You try to find the mean - the "middle number" - for when teenagers complete adolescence. "17" strikes me as good a number as any.


Putting death feedback into cantus-using humans was indeed a horribly short-sighted and ultimately self-defeating move. Nonetheless, it's an understandable (and hence not unbelievable) response to the horrors caused by monsters like Emperor Delight (remember him? From way back in Episode 3, IIRC?).

And while there's a certain degree of incompetency/short-sightedness in not having any good contingency plans in place for an out of control fiend, I don't find it downright unbelievable. You have to keep in mind the sparse population of the human society in SSY, and hence how limited its resources are. It's not like it has a NASA or a Pentagon to turn to with the mission of "Ok, boys, let's come up with a way to destroy fiends that may arise!"
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Old 2013-02-26, 14:06   Link #169
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Just one thing: I really don't understand why some viewers here are expecting perfection instead of people doing the best they can under the given circumstances, and then spending their lives hoping that it was enough (especially with all we've seen so far).
Because this is AnimeSuki.

Do we even know for sure in the first place that there aren't any measures in place for dealing with Fiends once they are born? Just because they aren't mentioned doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Old 2013-02-26, 15:05   Link #170
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So you have examples of the doctor using lethal injection to kill fiend K. While he didn't employ cantus, he does have killing intent on another human being. Then you have example of the women unknowingly killing another human with cantus thinking he was a queerat. Why can't this society develop a way based on how death loop feedback works to deal with fiend? You can either

1. Have weapons (physical means) to ambush and kill a fiend - shown possible by what the doctor did.
2. Have a way to create self deception to deceive one self that a fiend is not a human and thus by pass death loop feedback.

Either solution would be far less drastic that then what they have done with educational committee.

~~


To go further back, why didn't the science faction focus on learning more about cantus rather then developing death loop feedback. If they have learn to control cantus much better, and devise a way to control the leakage or subconscious usage of cantus, it would have prevented both akki and gouma.

They could also have focused on developing shielding skills with cantus, especially against cantus, direct or subconscious. Developing shielding and perfecting them means no cantus user can kill another easily and enough cantus user working together can contain a more powerful one should the stronger user turn rogue.

~~

Also, the way death loop feedback is set up is pretty similar to combined first and second law of robotics, except applying to human. If the laws of robotics is inherently flawed and allow a zeroth law, wouldn't death loop feedback be the same? I mean it shouldn't just be Akki being able to by pass it. Individual who create a sense of zero's law equivalent - people like Tomiko or Saki should also have the potential to by pass it.

Sorry for random thoughts just going all directions.
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Old 2013-02-26, 15:16   Link #171
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So you have examples of the doctor using lethal injection to kill fiend K.
I think they got lucky in that situation. The doctor was still killed by the fiend (and I believe he would have still died from the death feedback).

Now I might not be understanding this correctly but it seemed to me the fiend calmed down briefly can came to the Doctor asking for medicine. I think the doctor was able to trick himself that he was helping the fiend because of this situation. But I think to deliberately plan that type of deception is a lot harder than for it to just suddenly happen.

Quote:
Developing shielding and perfecting them means no cantus user can kill another easily and enough cantus user working together can contain a more powerful one should the stronger user turn rogue.
And what if a bunch of cantus users decide to combine their powers and kill someone weaker than them?
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Old 2013-02-26, 15:21   Link #172
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Honestly, I'm disappointed that Shisei didn't try entrapping the fiend. Surely a being with his cantus powers could have found a way to ensnare him without killing him. That would at least buy people time to come up with a permanent solution.

Freeze the fiend in a cube of ice... Put him inside of a deep pit that goes a full km down... Create a metallic safe around him.

But I suppose we can chalk Shisei's failure up to overconfidence on his part. He certainly had some hubris to him.
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Old 2013-02-26, 16:13   Link #173
Trajan
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Because he thought he was killing a bakenezumi.

Seriously, do they need to write it out in huge blinking letters on the screen?
I was responding to your statement that "humans cannot kill humans directly," which is clearly false. Now if you had said "humans cannot knowingly kill humans directly," that's something else entirely . . .

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Part of it, at least, is. As I said before, I suspect that the people who developed it did not or could not put a definition of "human" into the feedback. So they left it to the adults of that society to condition the kids in who counted as "human."
Since the queerats almost certainly skipped that part of his conditioning, that kid doesn't see the people he's killing as "human." So the feedback doesn't kick in.
The false minoshiro explains that death feedback occurs when the subconscious becomes aware that the user is attempting to harm another human. The subconscious then stops liver function and the parathyrodial glands. Most humans will stop at this point, but if they continue, their own PK will kill them either through "tetanic asphyxiation" or a heart attack (of course, this isn't how the guy in the field dies, but probably just a simple error). The effects of death feedback, as well as the mental prohibitions on violence, are heightened through hypnosis and education.

So it's definitely possible that an unconditioned human, who has no real concept of what a "human" is, could kill without triggering fatal death feedback, fiend or no. After all, humans can kill queerats, which they recognize as sentient "humanoid" creatures, with no lasting ill-effects, because their self-conscious does not recognize the queerats as "human."


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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
To go further back, why didn't the science faction focus on learning more about cantus rather then developing death loop feedback. If they have learn to control cantus much better, and devise a way to control the leakage or subconscious usage of cantus, it would have prevented both akki and gouma.
So here's Tomiko's explanation of Akki (Fiend) v. Gouma (Karma Demon):

* Akki - suffers from Raman-Klogius Syndrome, aka "Fox in the Henhouse" - has pervasive aggressive thoughts, intentionally destructive, may act out of a fear of being attacked themselves. Last occurrence 200 years ago.

*Gouma - suffers from Hashimoto-Applebaum Syndrome, passive and kind disposition, "unlike fiends, they use their Cantus subsconciously", warps the reality around them through Cantu leakage. Last occurrence Shun, then 20 years prior to that.

What is interesting is that these scientists apparently had the technology to significantly and precisely manipulate the human genome to produce a very specific result (death feedback). With that level of knowledge about human genetics, it's a bit surprising that they could not isolate and eliminate the causes (if they were genetic) of the two syndromes.

With all that said, the ultimate question right now is, what is the Messiah? He can intentionally kill humans like an Akki, but according to Satoru, he can also kill through subconscious Cantu leakage, like a Gouma. When Satoru points this out to Saki, she immediately flashed back to Shun (face unblurred - oops), who was a Gouma. But in his announcement, Niimi says that the Messiah is an Akki of the Kolgius Type 1 or Type 2 variant. Perhaps this apparent contradiction will be addressed in the upcoming episodes.

Last edited by Trajan; 2013-02-26 at 16:43.
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Old 2013-02-26, 16:50   Link #174
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The false minoshiro explains that death feedback occurs when the subconscious becomes aware that the user is attempting to harm another human. The subconscious then stops liver function and the parathyrodial glands. Most humans will stop at this point, but if they continue, their own PK will kill them either through "tetanic asphyxiation" or a heart attack (of course, this isn't how the guy in the field dies, but probably just a simple error). The effects of death feedback, as well as the mental prohibitions on violence, are heightened through hypnosis and education.
If there occasional extraordinary individuals such as Tomiko, who could somehow manipulate trillions of individual molecules so that her telomeres would last longer, I wonder how likely it would be for someone else in that world to find a way to nullify the effects of death feedback occurring within themselves, given that the actual cause of death is a sequence of specific biochemical processes.

Though if one could do it immediately at the onset of death feedback, they'd be on the level of certain Dune characters.

Quote:
With all that said, the ultimate question right now is, what is the Messiah? He can intentionally kill humans like an Akki, but according to Satoru, he can also kill through subconscious Cantu leakage, like a Gouma. When Satoru points this out to Saki, she immediately flashed back to Shun, who was a Gouma. But in his announcement, Niimi says that the Messiah is an Akki of the Kolgius Type 1 or Type 2 variant. Perhaps this apparent contradiction will be addressed in the upcoming episodes.
I find it interesting that Niimi can classify the Akki with some relative degree of specificity after (understandably) brief firsthand experience with it, but obviously there are levels of knowledge in the world that we still have not been shown from our/the main characters' POV.
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Old 2013-02-26, 19:16   Link #175
ChainLegacy
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Just one thing: I really don't understand why some viewers here are expecting perfection instead of people doing the best they can under the given circumstances, and then spending their lives hoping that it was enough (especially with all we've seen so far). That's what we have been doing since we became sentient. There are elements in history that seem ridiculous/horrifying/plain stupid when we think back on them now (with our current knowledge and hindsight), but back then the people who made the decisions thought it was the best they could come up with. ("Back then it seemed like a good idea...") Nobody is perfect, nobody is omniscient. Also, time goes on. Theories become obsolete. Science marches on. And so on and so on.
I don't expect perfection, but given their massive competency in preventative measures, their complete lack of ability to respond once shit hits the fan seems incongruous. Generally speaking, humans throughout history have been better at responding to conflicts once they start than preventing them. Of course, this society is different than any normal one, but it seems a very inhuman predicament they have: amazing conflict prevention with no ability to put down conflict once it starts. Look at American society, for example: we're experts at locking criminals up and punishing them, but pretty bad at stopping people from becoming criminals in the first place.

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Honestly, I'm disappointed that Shisei didn't try entrapping the fiend. Surely a being with his cantus powers could have found a way to ensnare him without killing him. That would at least buy people time to come up with a permanent solution.

Freeze the fiend in a cube of ice... Put him inside of a deep pit that goes a full km down... Create a metallic safe around him.

But I suppose we can chalk Shisei's failure up to overconfidence on his part. He certainly had some hubris to him.
My thoughts as well during that scene. His power is supposedly godlike, he can turn explosions into little balls of energy in his hands, but he can't stop some untrained kid from killing him? Kind of silly. Entrap the kid in a massive underground tomb and leave a small tunnel to throw him food and water without meeting him face to face, problem solved.

This is still a fun series, and I don't want to be overly negative in criticizing this one point, but since it's such a central element to the plot, it's so glaring it's kind of hard to overlook, or accept and just say "well everything else has been well done so whatever." Regardless, I still enjoyed this episode and will continue watching the series, but it is what it is.

Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2013-02-26 at 19:30.
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Old 2013-02-26, 23:07   Link #176
Solace
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
The bones were brought in 2-3 years after Maria & Mamoru disappeared. Meaning that, even if she got pregnant right away, adding the nine months of pregnancy, etc. the kid would've been cca 2 years old, max at that time. A 1-2 year-old child can't fend for himself alone in the wild, it can barely even walk...
My point was that we're all assuming one thing, when it could be something completely different. I was trying to put a dent into the "just as planned" aspect of Yakomaru finding and using Maria's kid, hopefully to show that while it may be his plan now to raid villages and take kids, it doesn't mean that was his plan initially.

And like I said, I don't know. My ideas were speculation and such, not firm conviction.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, I'm disappointed that Shisei didn't try entrapping the fiend. Surely a being with his cantus powers could have found a way to ensnare him without killing him. That would at least buy people time to come up with a permanent solution.

Freeze the fiend in a cube of ice... Put him inside of a deep pit that goes a full km down... Create a metallic safe around him.

But I suppose we can chalk Shisei's failure up to overconfidence on his part. He certainly had some hubris to him.
Fling the kid miles away. He's got Cantus, he'll land. Then get the heck outta dodge until you get a better plan. But I know you and I have discussed stuff like this before. Once people start digging too much into mechanics, things start to fall apart. Explaining how a warp engine works, or lightsabers, etc. I'm sure Roddenberry and Lucas had no freaking clue, it just sounded neat and helped to tell a story, while remaining somewhat plausible because of the magic that is fantasy. And when you try to explain too much, it can actually make things worse. People were cool with the Force. People were not cool with midichlorians.

How do Transformers work? Star Trek teleporters? Holodecks? How do you take the soul of a girl, shove it in a gem, and suddenly they can do magic tricks?

Plot elements, all of it. That's why sometimes it's better to just focus on what the story is trying to get across without thinking too hard about the details. Some writers can get away with building incredible detail and explanations without bogging down the story, but for others it's easier to skimp on details and just say "that's how it is".

Death Feedback is one of those things. How does it work? Why does it seem so inconsistent? Who knows, but it moves the plot, happens when it needs to, and helps the writer tell the story they wanted to tell. Personally, I'm cool with that. Even if I'd like to know more....which is actually a good thing, because if I'm interested in something, the writer has done a good job of investing me in the material.
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Old 2013-02-26, 23:14   Link #177
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
This is still a fun series, and I don't want to be overly negative in criticizing this one point, but since it's such a central element to the plot, it's so glaring it's kind of hard to overlook, or accept and just say "well everything else has been well done so whatever." Regardless, I still enjoyed this episode and will continue watching the series, but it is what it is.
As "nitpicky" as I have been, I agree, and this is my favorite current series. I just feel that the story would have been better without the Messiah. In fact, I don't even think he is necessary, as the queerats showed that by themselves they could take down the second most powerful human. With a little planning and a stealth attack, they may have even been able to kill Shisei through non-obvious methods. It would have been more shocking and profound to see the humans witness their most powerful Cantu user felled by subhuman rats rather than an unstoppable superweapon.

Expanding on this, the series right now is amounting to: We did everything to prevent the obvious threat (akki), but the obvious threat (akki) still (almost) destroyed us. That's fine as far as it goes, but I think the story would have more impact if instead it were: We did everything--completely revamped our society, brainwashed ourselves, altered our DNA, and killed hundreds of our own children--to prevent the obvious threat, but in the end we were destroyed by a force we never considered a threat at all.
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Old 2013-02-27, 00:04   Link #178
Dr. Casey
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I think the second summary is perfectly accurate even with the story being told the way it is, actually.
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Old 2013-02-27, 04:58   Link #179
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, I'm disappointed that Shisei didn't try entrapping the fiend. Surely a being with his cantus powers could have found a way to ensnare him without killing him. That would at least buy people time to come up with a permanent solution.

Freeze the fiend in a cube of ice... Put him inside of a deep pit that goes a full km down... Create a metallic safe around him.
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
My thoughts as well during that scene. His power is supposedly godlike, he can turn explosions into little balls of energy in his hands, but he can't stop some untrained kid from killing him? Kind of silly. Entrap the kid in a massive underground tomb and leave a small tunnel to throw him food and water without meeting him face to face, problem solved.
Aside of whether it's even possible for these people to create stuff like a sufficiently large block of ice or a metallic safe(??) or an underground tomb (???) out of thin air in a matter of seconds...

What with the nature of their power, the kid could've easily countered anything Shisei or anyone tried to throw at him. A block of ice? it is now pretty ice crystals flying toward your face. (Besides, contrary to what slapstick cartoons would have you believe, trapping someone in a block of ice pretty much means killing them. No air, very cold, kid dies of either suffocation or hypothermia, whichever comes first.) Metallic safe? bam, it's blown apart. (Also note the general lack of air within metallic safes.) A deep pit, well, good luck explaining to your conscious that no, you're not about to push someone into a kilometer deep pit because you want to do him harm... ^^;; And in the meanwhile the boy makes steps or something in the side of the pit and walks out like nothing has happened. Same with an underground tomb or whatever, and do you seriously think anyone can create these within the few seconds they have to deal with the situation? And do you think the opponent will just stand there patiently and wait for you to be done with it instead of blowing your head off? Seriously?

People seem to be misunderstanding the way this power works... Unlike what my favorite word "Cantus" (argh) may imply to some, this is not the type of power that manifests in physical energy balls that can clash with your opponent's and it's all shiny and goes boom and bzzzzt (or whatever clashing powers do) and the one with the strongest willpower/more training wins. It's not a mystical magic force either that lets you do whatever you want whenever you want it for however long you want to do it if you just wish it bad enough. And "god like" levels are not measured in who can land the biggest hit in battle. Even if Shisei's destructive powers are awesome, Satoru could level an army of bakenezumi when he was twelve. (For that matter, K's power level was lower than average, and he was 13.)

Shisei was a goner the moment he saw the boy. The boy had the upper hand the moment he realized that Shisei was not hurting him. (For that matter, I'm sure Yakomaru had told him as much and at the start he was just testing if it was really true.) Maybe Shisei could've come up with some plan if he'd known beforehand that he was about to face an akki, but he didn't know because Niimi and Saki arrived too late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I don't expect perfection, but given their massive competency in preventative measures, their complete lack of ability to respond once shit hits the fan seems incongruous.
But... the entire point is... OK, no, I give up. Really, I'm not going into this because there are info we haven't seen in the anime yet, but I'm just saying, you seem to be missing the entire point, and you also seem to expect people in the story to be aware of all the information and the knowledge the viewers are privy of, and have the kind of hindsight they couldn't possibly have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
This is still a fun series, and I don't want to be overly negative in criticizing this one point, but since it's such a central element to the plot, it's so glaring it's kind of hard to overlook, or accept and just say "well everything else has been well done so whatever." Regardless, I still enjoyed this episode and will continue watching the series, but it is what it is.
You do realize we're still nowhere near the end, right? (okay, we're near the end, but not there yet...) Anyway, think and believe whatever you want, but declaring something a gaping plot hole just because you misunderstand it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

This story is not perfect, it has flaws and inconsistencies. But what you complain about is not one of them.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-02-27 at 05:11.
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Old 2013-02-27, 05:34   Link #180
Tougarashi
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Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
If there occasional extraordinary individuals such as Tomiko, who could somehow manipulate trillions of individual molecules so that her telomeres would last longer, I wonder how likely it would be for someone else in that world to find a way to nullify the effects of death feedback occurring within themselves, given that the actual cause of death is a sequence of specific biochemical processes.
That really is thought provoking statement but I'm not sure Tomiko knows how to manipulate her telomeres. I thought she was born with it.
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