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Old 2013-02-19, 16:07   Link #5921
Haak
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Old 2013-02-19, 16:31   Link #5922
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post

Yeah but what i'm saying is that after it was all over, the battle experience wouldn't have been enough to justify it.
Agreed, however, the EA was desperate for a mass driver, obviously the benefit would outweight the cost if Orb didn't blow it up, but it was a chance the EA was willing to take, as i said earlier, the secondary objective (atleast for Azrael) was to test out the druggies.

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You threw a shit storm at me for that? Seriously?
Threw shit at you?

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I was annoyed too but ultimately it's a matter of perspective. There were other things about the show I liked at the time and when you have factors like that then it makes things easier to forgive the worse elements. It was annoying but I didn't consider it that big of a deal.
a matter of perspective, or a matter of fansub groups/dvd subs

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Yeah but that's due to a military perspective and not due to any moral misgivings Athrun may have had. Remember the original point was whether he's do it because his friends were in Orb.
Fair enough. Athrun simply disregarded a forceful approach when it came to Orb though, we can speculate why but it was quickly shot down as we both saw in episode 25.

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So there are factors that prevent a super power from attacking smaller neutral nations whenever they feel like it. That's ultimately my point.
Well, seeing how Orb was one of the few nations that accepted Coordinators and Naturals alike, it would be pretty obvious why they wouldn't attack it to begin with, not to mention they had good diplomatic relations with them.

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Yes but in response to that Athrun shot down the idea of forcing their way in. Neither Yzak and Dearka had actually said that (Dearka said it later) but he was clearly speaking to both of them because both of them were implying it.
Yeah, Athrun clearly marked his authority as a commander by simply shooting the idea down before it was brought up, but grunts voice their opinions, hell, grunts in the army tells their superior they " should attack the target " when the commander already knows it would be a dumb idea.

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And ultimately Yzak said at the end "I'll go along with it, but if it were up to me I'd force my way in."
" And that's why Athrun is in command "

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The show never implied it did either. It never showed that Seirans ideals could be just as strong to the Orb people as Uzumi's (and later ended up showing the exact opposite, at least in their military). And it never showed that Seiran's had ideals that were just as legally powerful as Uzumi's.
Honestly, Seiran's ideal seems to be survival above pride, which would be a complete 180 compared to Uzumi's pride before death (if you can call it that)

Quote:
Me: "But why is that? Like I said, Destiny does not show us that the Seirans ought to have the effect you're implying they did. But they do anyway. To me that's making Orb act out of character."

You: "Exactly, they do, and that's all we have to go on."

Me: "So you admit it's out of character then?"

You: "Not in Destiny."

To which my response is, we were talking about Destiny from the beginning.
Indeed, but as you said it was out of character, one has to assume you meant the development we had from Seed, so we can't disregard that, if we only take Destiny into account then everything Orb did would make sense since we had nothing to compare it to.

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Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise you were the victim in all this. I'm so relieved to hear you were able to move past your traumatic experience...
Apology accepted!

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If that's your lame attempt at telling me you've stopped then fine. But just a small tip for you for future reference: If you're trying to tell someone you're going to stop insulting them, don't insult them while you do it...
Not really a lame attempt, i did stop. Also, getting offended over small matters isnt normal, brush it off your shoulder and more on. " Builds character " as that old 'Nam uncle would tell you.
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Old 2013-02-20, 03:09   Link #5923
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yeah but all she could do was produce noise. There was nothing she could really do about it. It's not hard for them to believe they could try the same thing with nuclear weapons. Uzumi only found about about the Gundams in Heliopolis later after all.
Not without the NJC, they can't. And not if they wish to deploy nuclear weapons under Orb's main military force.
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Even if it is hard, that doesn't mean it makes sense for Orb not to try. After what they've been through you'd think they'd try anything. And they did end up forming an alliance with the EA so they must've been pretty desperate.
They can't even try without the NJC.
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It doesn't but it does give credence to the idea that she might not totally be against it either. The main point was that you were saying she was idealistic enough to think the treaty would work on it's own. Given what we've seen, I don't think that's true.
What we've seen is that the Archangel crew, including Cagalli, are against the use of weapons like the nuclear weapons.
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Because like I said, they thought they could surprise attack. That simply can't work with Orb when Orb have already seen it happen and could prepare their nuclear weapons just as quickly. If the EA could wait for a treaty to form, Orb would've had enough time to prepare.



Three days before? How did you figure that?
From the timeline on GundamOfficial. The last part of SEED had several time skips.
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But even so, like i said, it was plot hole that they managed to surprise them (something that you pointed out yourself). I don't think it's wise for us to factor in plot holes because then it's just pointless to argue at all. Anything could happen.
It's not really a plot hole since the EA has been consistently portrayed as such.
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Okay fine, let me phrase: Just because it managed to stop an attack once, doesn't mean it's always effective.
What you're saying is not wrong, but the likelihood of it is low when you consider that these are Coordinators building these weapons, who have come up with weapons like mobile suits, NJC, GENESIS.

And beside, it's not like nuclear weapons is the only option for the EA.
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It's not wishful thinking at all. It doesn't make any sense to be worried about a nation that has no reason to attack you, regardless of their PR.
Of course not, the problem is if it will stay that way.

The EA didn't have a reason to attack Orb in SEED ... until it did.
ZAFT didn't have a reason to attack Orb in Destiny ... until it did.

Joining the EA is a preemptive move to ensure the EA will not have a reason to attack Orb.
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I've already made my point clear that power levels aren't the only factors to deterrence.
What are the other factors in your opinion?
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But we only get to find out that the EA from Destiny is the same as the EA from SEED after the treaty is made. Think about the time line dude. When i watched the episode where they formed the treaty, do you think i was thinking "Well that makes sense because I'm going to find out in exactly 20 episodes later, that EA is exactly the same as in SEED!" Obviously not. It's still going to be out character.
No, because we, the audience, can only see what are shown in the episodes. Orb, and especially the Seirans, have been living in the same world as the EA. While we get to skip 2 years after SEED, they are living through it.
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In any case, the Berlin example does not prove EA are the same. As I pointed out, EA only attacked Orb because they needed a Mass Driver. Yes they went on to invade Orb anyway, but by then the situation had changed and objectives had changed.
The reason is irrelevant. The point is, if the EA has an objective, whatever it is, they're not afraid to achieve it by force.
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In any case the Berlin example doesn't prove anything anyway.

1. As I pointed out earlier, The reason they sent the Destroys in the first place is because ZAFT was there.
2. They carried on invading because there was no resistance any more.
3. But that doesn't mean they'll initially attack anything that moves
4. and it certainly doesn't mean they'll attack neutral nations.
1. ZAFT was also at Orb.
2. The Destroy was meant to destroy all resistance.
3. Sure, most would not. Still, the EA didn't bother distinguishing ZAFT forces from the EF civilians living there.
4. Neutral party is only neutral as long as the EA doesn't want anything from it, as Orb found out in SEED.
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So then it stand to reason, they knew they were being lied to and Orb knew they wouldn't really believe them but knew they couldn't do anything about it due to the PR effect.
It all comes down to Athrun not having evidence. In Destiny, ZAFT had their evidence, so they didn't have to accept Orb's lie again.
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Old 2013-02-24, 16:53   Link #5924
Haak
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Old 2013-02-25, 02:10   Link #5925
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm aware of that. The EA had perfectly fine rational for attacking Orb since it was totally reasonable for them to believe they could get their hands on the Mass Driver. But what I'm saying is that after that experience, they should be under no illusions that they won't get much out of Orb if Orb decided to stand it's ground again in Destiny.
Indeed, in Seed, the EA had something to gain from the invasion, they also have something to gain in Destiny by simply waving the threat of invasion in Orbs face, Orb has a military, albeit small, its powerful, the M1 line and Murasame line are pretty powerful for grunts.

Since Orb got a taste of how the EA acted in SEED, of course they would think twice instead of flat out saying no, you don't want to repeat history, better safe than sorry, to put it short.

The decision that was made wasnt about pride, but rather survival of the country (or the seirans).


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You were pretty adamant that I was drawing "wild conclusions" and "simply overanalyzing the entire situation" for something that was just me expressing my opinion.
Indeed, wild conclusions that you base your opinions on.

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I'm not saying this would be factor between EA and Orb though.

Well...I wasn't but only because i didn't want to bring this up in an already convoluted debate but just so you know, I think the fact that Orb is a nation that has Coordinators and Naturals living side by side makes the treaty between EA and Orb make even less sense. What about all the Coordinators living in Orb? They were completely ignored as a factor but they would clearly be an issue if Orb just decided to join a force that wants to wipe out all Coordinators...
Indeed they where, which i've also brought up a few pages back when there was a earlier Orb discussion regarding the treaty.

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Well I'm not denying that either. I'm just saying: Athrun was clearly made out to be more reasonable and logical here which means what he said was made out as exposition and that Orb isn't a country that ZAFT can deal lightly with.
Yes, Athrun was put in command because he didn't act on his emotions.

No, once again, you are assuming that Athruns squad=The entire Zaft army, he was reasoning with his forces at hand, not the entire Zaft army.

The Creuset/Creuzet squad was enough for the stealth/diversion/attack on Heliopolis with severe tactical advantage, doing the same with less manpower, no diversions would be reckless, not to mention suicidal, Athrun knew this, that's why he shot the idea down before it was brought up.

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But I'm saying Orb acted out of character in Destiny precisely because it's a complete 180 turn from SEED that doesn't make sense. I'm not only taking Destiny into account. I'm saying Orb is only out of character in Destiny.
Country was burned to the ground
Change in leadership
???
Cagalli suddenly had no political power/Profit? for Seirans.

And honestly, Orb acting the way it did after what happened in the earlier episodes of Destiny and in SEED, the way it acted in Destiny does make sense. Atleast more sense than some other parts of the show.
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Old 2013-02-25, 05:48   Link #5926
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I obviously meant they'd try to get the NJC. And they don't need to deploy anything. Just have them (or at least make other nations think they have them)



Which is what I was talking about.
They won't be able to try because there's a worldwide ban on NJC and Cagalli won't allow it. Orb is not going to paint itself as a potential aggressor by trying to acquire NJC.
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And what we've also seen is that Cagalli isn't idealistic enough to think a mere treaty is enough to keep Orb safe which was your actual point.
That still has nothing to do with nuclear weapons.
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Well I'll just have to take your word for it. But like i said, if the EA could wait for a treaty to form, Orb would've had enough time to prepare.
So did ZAFT. So it's a moot point.
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A consistent plot hole is still a plot hole. And it's not consistent since this was the first (and only) time shown of EA launching two consecutive nuclear strikes with the second strike still being a surprise to ZAFT when it shouldn't have been.
Boaz was the only time the EA was successful at a nuclear strike after they had decided to annihilate the PLANTs. So it's not inconsistent for them to follow that success with a second attack, thus, no plot hole.

Junius 7 attack was to cripple the PLANTs while, in Destiny, they were not successful.
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Just because they're Coordinators doesn't mean the probability is low. I'd say the idea that it's completely foolproof is a much lower probability.
It doesn't have to be completely foolproof, it just has to be effective enough for the EA to decide on another method of destroying the PLANTs.
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No they were able to develop a ridiclously expensive and incredibly risky new alternative that they couldn't possibly be sure would work just a mere thirty-odd episodes later...
It's no different than GENESIS. Again, these types of weapons are not uncommon in the Gundam franchise.
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If MAD isn't a factor, then I see little reason why they wouldn't try again, especially on Earth when there's no reason for them to automatically believe they have a second and there's little drawback to them doing so.
They don't need to resort to such measures on Earth. The nuclear weapons and Requiem are for the PLANTs themselves, straight at the heart of ZAFT.
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We were talking about how EA should not have a reason to believe they can get anything out of Orb. That should stay that way regardless of that happens. It would take a pretty stupid move from Orb to blow that.
We don't have the assurances that it will stay that way.
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The costs vs the benefits to the side that wants to attack is the main one. How perspectives can change from previous wars is another. Nuclear weapons is another but that's not related to this point...
The cost vs benefit can change. In SEED, Orb wasn't worth attacking until the EA found itself needing a way to get supplies to space quickly. As for perspectives changing, that also includes Orb, which is why they now joined the EA.
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This was not a factor shown in Destiny so that's fanwaking as well.
It was shown when Yuna talked to Cagalli about seeing Orb burned again. That's a clear sign that the danger of SEED's EA is still present with Destiny's EA. So you can't call it out of character when they're making the decision based on their experience and the current state of the world.
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No.

The point is, if the EA has an objective, whatever it is, they're not afraid to achieve it by force so long as the benefits outweigh the costs in their perspective.

...

So my point stands then. EA isn't going to attack Orb for no reason.
Orb has no control over the EA's perspective or whether or not they have a reason to attack Orb.
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And this doesn't mean Orb weren't aware of that. In fact that was precisely their plan. They knew Athrun and thus ZAFT wouldn't take issue with them, not because they thought Athrun would believe the lie, but because they knew Athrun didn't have a good enough reason to attack. Which just goes to show that there are other factors, other than power levels when it comes to deterrence.
It's still about power levels. Athrun didn't want to attack without proof because of Orb's military strength. But with proof, he could justify an attack to the ZAFT leaders.
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Old 2013-02-26, 20:57   Link #5927
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Athrun could not have mobilized a full out in invasion of Orb by Zaft just over Strike and AA. It just wasn't a priority to them. The council really did not care that one MS got away as they had what they needed for the Guaiz's and the Freedom/Justice/Proviendence project. And their priority was Spitbreak, which basically recalled everyone except the Athrun's group and that one ship they had. Even Cruset was recalled for it. They only let Athrun's group keep persuing it out of pride. Strike wasn't that big a deal and they knew it. (Really even if AA made it Alaska with Strike and tow, both would have simply been destroyed there without Freedom to break through an escape for them). Yzak was simply overestimating their own importance in the scheme of things. Requesting more pressure to be put on Orb would almost certainly be turned down, and they never would have moblized and army to go to war over one ship and MS when they had a primary base to invade elsewhere.

They knew it was a lie both times, but the difference was the first time it was a minor target that wasn't worth starting an international incident over, where as the 2nd time they had the guy marked as the eviliest person in the world that was wanted by everyone. Yuna inability to realize the difference is why he was not cut out for leader ship.
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:16   Link #5928
Haak
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Old 2013-02-27, 17:01   Link #5929
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
There was no world wide ban on NJCs. The ban was on NJs.
It was on NJC to prevent the use of nuclear weapons. You can't ban something that's already been deployed deep under the Earth.
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My point that Cagalli isn't idealistic enough to think a treaty on nuclear weapons should work alone has nothing to do with nuclear weapons?
That point is irrelevant since it doesn't mean that Cagalli would condone the use of nuclear weapons.
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No, ZAFT clearly wasn't trying to form an alliance with the EA after the first nuclear attack.
Of course not, because they're prepared to counter another attack.
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I just spent a good 10 minutes trying to work out what you're taking about but I just gave up because this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I can only ask for you to rephrase that.
You said:
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And it's not consistent since this was the first (and only) time shown of EA launching two consecutive nuclear strikes with the second strike still being a surprise to ZAFT when it shouldn't have been.
What I posted was in response to the part in bold.

But after rereading what you post after the part in bold, my answer will be that ZAFT wasn't surprised by the second attack.
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My point is that the only reason ZAFT found the second nuclear attack a surprise is because of plot hole writing, something you clearly admitted yourself. Now it seems you're talking about something else entirely.
Sorry about that.

So, again, my response after rereading your post is that ZAFT was not surprised by the second attack.
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But one demonstration is never enough to prove that something is effective to decide on another method, especially one as risky, time consuming and as costly as their stupid giant death beam crap.
It is when that demonstration wiped out your entire nuclear weapons that you have on hand. Not only did the stampede destroyed those already launched, they destroyed those missiles that are still in the ships.

It basically turned the EA ships that are carrying those weapons into a walking time bomb, so to speak. And since you need to get relatively close to your target to make use of the nuclear weapons, it's too risky in the face of such an effective display of countermeasure.
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And like i said: A consistent plot hole is still a plot hole..
A plot hole is something that breaks the consistency of the story. By definition, you cannot have a consistent plot hole because such a recurring event would become part of the story's consistency. At worst, you could say it's a plot device, but not a plot hole.
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They clearly did.
Only when the world suddenly turned against them. By then, it's too late.

But think about this, in both SEED and Destiny, the final battle still ended up in space. So the Earth isn't really as important as long as the EA can get at the PLANTs in space.
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And like I said, none of those above factors should be a factor this time. From anyone's perspective EA should've learned that they won't get anything out of Orb even if they need it and Orb should not adopt such an 180 degree reversal of perspective because it would simply be out of character.
Just because the EA didn't get anything last time doesn't mean that they never will. They obviously had enough power to defeat Orb. It just depends on how quickly they can do it.

Another thing: anyone's perspective is not the same as EA's perspective. So, again, Orb cannot make a decision by assuming that the EA would be reasonable.
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Just because Yuna talks about how belligerent EA are now doesn't mean EA have been belligerent to Orb throughout those two years you say Orb has supposedly had to endure.
I didn't say the EA was "belligerent to Orb" throughout the two years. I said Orb would still know about the EA just by living in the same world.
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Though it's still what their perspective on EA would be.
And their perspective led them to join the EA.
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So it very clearly isn't all about power levels...
It's about power levels. If Orb did not have a decent military power, Athrun would have no excuse not to pursue his target.

His whole reason for wanting to get proof was because of Orb's military power.
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Old 2013-02-28, 03:32   Link #5930
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Except this completely ignores the point I've raised about EA learning that it's futile to attack Orb again since they know they'll get nothing from it. And Orb should recognise that too.
and once again, as the show tells us, the ea does not care, also, they are scaring orb into joining the alliance. They know the EA can curbstomp them again, thats why the Seirans decided to have Orb join the alliance, they even said so in episode 12 " This country is not your toy "




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So you do have a problem then...

Or have you just forgotten what we were talking about?

My supposed "wild conclusion" is that what Orb did was out of character which you agreed wasn't actually that wild at all.
I said it was out of character for Orb in Seed but not in Destiny. We're given enough character development regarding Orb in Destiny to understand why the country joined the alliance. Honestly, i don't think Orb is what you have a problem with, rather the Seirans and how they suddenly seized control over Cagalli and claimed power over the country over a few episodes.

The Seirans, are shitty characters, but atleast we where given a reason to why Orb suddenly changed from Seed. It's not the best, but atleast its something that makes sense in the end.
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No he wasn't. I've already explained this: Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.
But you are wrong. Rewatch the episode. A fullscale attack on Orb was off the table, which he made very very clear before it was even brought up by Dearka.

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And we've already been through this too. If you don't have anything else to add and you're just talking about your own opinion then fine but don't expect me to believe there's much credibility behind it.
And once again, check your facts and stop acting like you know the show inside and out, because you've obviously forgotten certain things or are just flat out ignoring them to try and strenghten your own arguments. its getting ridiculous ty repeat the same thing, with things to weight it up and have you reply with a " Na-ah! "
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Old 2013-03-01, 10:48   Link #5931
amaterasu4
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...e-english-subs

"The Blu-ray Discs for the Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny HD Remaster project will have English subtitles.

According to online retailers, the series will be collected into four box sets with three discs each. The first boxset contains episodes 1-12 and will be released on June 21. The limited-edition box set retails for 21,000 yen (about US$227) and includes a special booklet, audio commentary, clean opening sequence, promotional videos, and a disc jacket and storage box designed by Hisashi Hirai and Satoshi Shigeta. The standard edition retails for 18,900 yen (US$204). The following box sets will be released on September 25, December 25, and March 26, 2014.

The remaster will begin streaming on the Bandai Channel service on March 29 at 11:00 p.m. in Japan. The series will then start running on the BS11 satellite channel on April 7 and on the Tokyo MX TV channel on April 9."
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Old 2013-03-01, 12:19   Link #5932
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...e-english-subs

"The Blu-ray Discs for the Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny HD Remaster project will have English subtitles.

According to online retailers, the series will be collected into four box sets with three discs each. The first boxset contains episodes 1-12 and will be released on June 21. The limited-edition box set retails for 21,000 yen (about US$227) and includes a special booklet, audio commentary, clean opening sequence, promotional videos, and a disc jacket and storage box designed by Hisashi Hirai and Satoshi Shigeta. The standard edition retails for 18,900 yen (US$204). The following box sets will be released on September 25, December 25, and March 26, 2014.

The remaster will begin streaming on the Bandai Channel service on March 29 at 11:00 p.m. in Japan. The series will then start running on the BS11 satellite channel on April 7 and on the Tokyo MX TV channel on April 9."
Given we now know how many episodes will come with the first box-set and the day and month slated for the others, this might tell us all we need to know on "Destiny's Remaster" episode count.
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Old 2013-03-02, 16:37   Link #5933
Haak
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Old 2013-03-02, 16:40   Link #5934
Rising Dragon
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No, Haak, the ban was definitely on Nuclear Jammer Cancelers on mobile suits. The N-Jammers weren't being dug up; they can't. They're in too deep. If they could, they would've already.
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Old 2013-03-02, 16:52   Link #5935
Haak
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Can I ask where you're getting this? Admittedly, I'm looking at a wikai but it seems a little too specific for me to completely deny it:

Quote:
Because the use of N-Jammers was banned by the Junius Treaty which ended the Bloody Valentine War, N-Jammer Cancellers are now semi-outdated technology; however, because of the still-present N-Jammers which were dropped on Earth during the war as offensive weapons, all nuclear power reactors on Earth are equipped with N-Jammer Cancellers.
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Neutron_Jammer_Canceller

Quote:
After the war's end, the Treaty of Junius was signed between both sides, which, among other things, outlawed the use of N-Jammers in combat, either in a defensive role or as a weapon. Also the long and costly process of digging out all N-Jammers on Earth begun at this time.
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Neutron_Jammer
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:13   Link #5936
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I repeat: The ban was on NJ's, not NJCs. The NJs were being dug out.
No, the point is to restrict nuclear weapons from being used. Banning NJC would do that because of the NJ.
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Just because it doesn't prove she's for nuclear weapons as a deterrent, that automatically means the rest of Orb is against it?
It means that they won't use nuclear weapons, especially not with the ban in place.
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Which means the situations are completely different. Unlike in this case, EA didn't have their eyes set on a nuclear attack on Orb immediately and were currently in negotiations with them. And a nuclear attack was never specifically mentioned as their reason to form the treaty so it's highly unlikely that they were under that kind of pressure and had time.
They weren't, but that's beside the point, which is that MAD wasn't a factor for the EA (or Zala) in the war.
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Except that they were surprised. If you watch the episode again, you'll see that they were clearly surprised and would have all been wiped out had it not been for Athrun and Kira.
They weren't surprised that the EA will use nuclear weapons again. Yzak's mother even addressed that in her speech before the battle. The only one who was shown to be "surprised" was Yzak, but that's more of shock realization that he's finally encountering nuclear weapons being deployed in person. Everybody knew in the back of their mind that the EA will use nuclear weapons again, even the TSA.
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More riskier than outright mobile suits battles? If they have enough money to spend on humongous Destroys and a giant death laser, then they have the money to make more nuclear weapons and experiment with them at different ranges.
Yes, with mobile suit battles it could go either way. With the stampeder, they would be dead if there's any nuclear weapons in their ships.

The problem with nuclear weapons is that you have to deploy it when it's close. If they deploy it too far away, the nuclear weapons would be destroyed before it could reach its target. And with the stampeder, that is almost a certainty, and not just the missiles deployed, but any remaining weapons in their ships.
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Imo, a plothole is something that breaks either internal or external consistency. But now we're just talking semantics. For the record i don't actually think it's the same as GENESIS.
A "risky, time consuming and as costly ... stupid giant death beam crap"

Yeah, that fits GENESIS as well, or any other giant beam in Gundam.
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Not only then. They were on the back even before then and before than they were still at a stalemate with ZAFT and not getting anywhere.
Which is fine if their ultimate goal is to destroy the PLANTs. The loss at Heaven's Base forced Djibril to move up the time table.
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So what you've just done is proven that Orb really shouldn't be worried about the EA after all.
Nope, in SEED Orb was attacked when the EA wanted to get to space.
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Thankfully for you, I don't really agree. It may have ended up in space in Destiny but only because Jibril was backed into fleeing into space. That doesn't mean Earth isn't important to them. He spent a lot of time demonstrating his power on Earth after all. He planned to wipe out all of ZAFT. That would have to include the ZAFT on Earth as well.
Of course, but that's why he has the Destroys built. The nuclear weapons and Requiem are still meant for PLANTs themselves.
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We're looking at the situation from Orb's perspective here. If Orb are already thinking EA might do something quickly, then the EA are definitely not gonna get their hands on anything because Orb are clearly already prepared.
Not necessarily, it depends on what the leaders are wiling to sacrifice.
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And even if we're not looking at it from Orb's perspective, the Golden Gundam already proves EA won't get jack.
?
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That also means Orb can not make any assumption that EA is an actual threat to them and thus a 180 degree reversal is not required and they can remain neutral.
Nope, they're basing this on their experience that the EA can be a threat.
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The truth is, Orb has to consider the EA's perspective so that they know what they can do to avoid conflict. No they won't have control over EA's perspective but what they decide to do is obviously going to be based on what they think EA's perspective is. And the fact of the matter remains that from Orb's perspective, EA will not be looking at them at all, so Orb have plenty of time and they don't have to make a treaty so quickly.
They don't have to, but they can and did.
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And what does that prove? Yuna makes the point that EA is still a danger to them. That's the kind of perspective I'm calling BS on in the first place.

Which is what I'm calling BS on since their perspective should've have clearly been different.
Well, that's the thing about perspective. It could be different for different people. That doesn't mean it's BS.

If the EA never attacked Orb, you might have a point. But since the EA did attack Orb, they also can have the perspective that they do, especially since Cagalli wasn't able to get support in the government.
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If it was all about power levels, then why would the rest of ZAFT's involvement be a bad thing?
Because of power levels. ZAFT is already at war with the EA, they don't need to make an enemy out of Orb without reason.
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Old 2013-03-03, 04:16   Link #5937
Znozzy
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 25
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Which is what i'm calling BS on. Circular logic.
Doesn't matter if you call BS on it, Orb still signed the treaty and joined the alliance. All evidence points towards that Orb was threatened into joining it including character actions. Nothing points towards anything else, you saying its " BS " all the time doesnt make it true.

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No, we haven't as I have already pointed out numerous times. If you want to convince me, go back and address the points I raised.
Yes, We have. The Seiran's act as a catalyst in Destiny to explain why the country acts like it does, and its understandable because they seized the power from Cagalli and took control of Orb. Just because you refuse to accept/understand some parts of the show doesnt make it less canon or legit for that matter.

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Because Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.
Again? we've already repeated this enough, Athrun shot down the brute-force reason because it would be different than heliopolis (an entire country against them this time) and because Zaft had good diplomatic relations with Orb since it accepted naturals and coordinators alike. Athrun did not want to start a war against Orb and the idea would've been shot down in the high council.

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I'm sorry, but until you actually address he points I've raised, I'm obviously not going to believe you.
But you don't bring up any points, you only stubbornly state your own opinion and " Call BS " on everything that you don't agree with.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:30   Link #5938
Haak
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Spoiler for monster:

Spoiler for Znozzy:
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:58   Link #5939
Rising Dragon
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Can I ask where you're getting this? Admittedly, I'm looking at a wikai but it seems a little too specific for me to completely deny it:



http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Neutron_Jammer_Canceller



http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Neutron_Jammer
Sure would like their citations for that, since Gundam wiki is bloody notorious for false information. And lo and behold, both of the excerpts you took from it lack proper citations for their info, when all of the media thus far have said it was the N-Jammer Canceler that got banned from use on mobile suits.
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Old 2013-03-05, 23:12   Link #5940
monster
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Too bad it wasn't banned then...
The NJC was banned.
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No it doesn't. Saying that Cagalli doesn't condone the actual use of nuclear weapons does not mean the rest of Orb government will not try and gain nuclear weapons to use a deterrent. Cagalli also didn't condone the alliance with the EA and look how that turned out.
The rest of the Orb government wouldn't either because of the ban.
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Yes, it wasn't a factor.
And that's all that matters. Now let's move on.
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Why? Because they didn't see it coming.
Uh, no, again, Yzak's mother addressed that in her speech. They knew it was coming.
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Not almost a certainty. Not even close. It was only shown once.
And it was a success.
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Especially when we know the real truth. That if they had deployed more nuclear weapons then they would've actually succeeded.
It's not the truth when it never happened.
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Yeah but they actually had a reason. They were covering their arse in case the NJC data was leaked and they needed something to counter nuclear weapons again. It wasn't something that they built after immediately coming to the conclusion that their one try at something else was a failure.
Where did you get that information? And please use official source instead of an unofficial wiki.
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But curiously not make them try nuclear weapons again, even though MAD isn't a factor and there's no evidence of a stampeder on Earth.
They didn't think they need to, especially with the Destroys.
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If that's the reason then it's worth pointing out that EA will already know that attacking Orb again won't give them what they need to get to space. If the "getting to space" bit is relevant then you have to accept that's relevant too.
Nope, after the loss of Orb's mass driver, the EA blamed Freedom and Justice for slowing them down. Orb wasn't even a factor. So they obviously didn't think it's impossible to get whatever they want from Orb.
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Why? How does that help in anyway?
The objective is to destroy the PLANTs. Using nuclear weapons/Requiem at the PLANTs help them achieve that objective.
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Like what?
Like Uzumi was willing to sacrifice himself.
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That Golden Gundam was built whilst Uzumi was still alive and hidden in Orb all throughout EA's occupation and the EA never found it.
The EA wasn't looking for it and didn't need it.
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So they need to make assumptions. Experience isn't the only thing to go one.

Logic and common sense would be another.
If you don't think you can win against a potential aggressor, then you shouldn't aggravate them. That makes sense to me.
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So they didn't have to. Point proven.
Yeah, but it's irrelevant. We don't always wait until we have to do it.
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It does if my reasons are true.

So it requires them to have that perspective in the first place? The original point was that you would agree they wouldn't have that perspective if they had reason to believe they could deter EA. Since in order for you to prove that they wouldn't have reason to believe they could deter EA rests on them having that perspective, I can only once again point out the circular logic.
Well, here's my point:

The EA has attacked Orb with no provocation. With that experience, Orb, especially with the Seirans' influence, doesn't have a reason to believe that they could deter an attack from the EA. Given that perspective, joining the EA helps them to stay on the EA's good side.
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So reasons matter then?
Of course. The whole point is that IF the EA had a reason to attack Orb, Orb wasn't strong enough to deter them.

Thus, joining the EA was a preemptive move so that the EA would not have a reason to attack.
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