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Old 2013-02-27, 14:09   Link #26741
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
People said this about the Soviet Union, too, and look what happened to it.
Because those "people" ignored what the insiders said. It's different with DPRK.
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Old 2013-02-27, 14:16   Link #26742
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
To be fair, they invaded Iraq, and included North Korea alongside Iraq in the "Axis of Evil". I would say this is an implicit threat to destroy the regime.
Ah, see, that's threatening conventional destruction. You said threatening nuclear attack.

Keep in mind. I agree that the whole Axis of evil thing was rather (monumentally) stupid. But it didn't exactly come out of nowhere. North Korea didn't just start being belligerent and crazy in 2002 after Bush gave the Axis of Evil speech. This was a good decades of shenanigans after the wall fell.

More to the point. Even though the United States was rabble rousing about North Korea during the Bush administration, the South Korean policy at the time was one to maintain amicable relations. And they did ALLOT of things to try to keep relations warm. Quite frankly, it's rather strange that North Korea wouldn't cooperate with the South to protect themselves from the USA.


But I think that's the real issue. America isn't the greatest threat to North Korea. South Korea is. And the mistake of the sunshine policy was in not realizing that South Korea doesn't HAVE to be a military threat to North Korea to still be an existential threat. It just needs to be the more prosperous Korean state, thus threatening the other states legitimacy.


I think that's the reason why countries like Cuba and Vietnam have all together, adopted better to the end of the cold war. They don't have rival states that directly challenge the legitimacy of their rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
People said this about the Soviet Union, too, and look what happened to it.
If the Juche state was going to collapse, it'd have done so after Soviet aid got yanked.

The problem is that by this point, neither China or South Korea can afford to let North Korea fall. Both sides because it'd mean they'd have to take up the job of actively managing the place and the ensuing refugee crisis...and then China and South Korea would have to share a land border.

I don't know how comfortable the South Koreans are being right next door to the China (plus side: Chinese less crazy. Downside: China isn't always friendly, and MUCH bigger), and I KNOW that the Chinese won't be happy with the US presence in the peninsula moving upwards northward to their border.
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Old 2013-02-27, 14:37   Link #26743
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Sure, the Chinese won't mind around 19,000 US Army personel moving up from places like Camp Red Cloud up to their border. No worries.....
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:25   Link #26744
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Ah, see, that's threatening conventional destruction. You said threatening nuclear attack.

Keep in mind. I agree that the whole Axis of evil thing was rather (monumentally) stupid. But it didn't exactly come out of nowhere. North Korea didn't just start being belligerent and crazy in 2002 after Bush gave the Axis of Evil speech. This was a good decades of shenanigans after the wall fell.
Yeah, but it seemed to me that they really started to step things up after the Iraq War. I don't recall NK trying to get Nuclear weapons prior to 2003. They saw that even with evidence pointing to the contrary, Iraq was invaded for having WMDs. So if you're going to be invaded for having WMDs, you might as well just have WMDs to defend yourself.

The lesson they(Iran and DPRK) got was that Iraq played by the rules and got invaded. If they want to survive (and I mean the regimes, not the nations), they need to be able to use the ultimate weapon. After all, once they have a Nuclear weapon they'll be safe, and so long as they don't have a nuclear weapon, the Great Powers can just land some armies and destroy them through conventional warfare. If Iraq had actually kept Nuclear weapons, Saddam might still be sitting in his Palace smoking cigars, so they think.

For DPRK, they might also be thinking that by acquiring Nuclear weapons, they can threaten the US into lifting the crippling sanctions.
Quote:
More to the point. Even though the United States was rabble rousing about North Korea during the Bush administration, the South Korean policy at the time was one to maintain amicable relations. And they did ALLOT of things to try to keep relations warm. Quite frankly, it's rather strange that North Korea wouldn't cooperate with the South to protect themselves from the USA.
Far as I can tell, the Northern regime is solely intent on it's own survival. Any developments that could lead Korea closer to unification would threaten the Kim's iron grip on their fiefdom.

For the South Koreans part, the sunshine policy isn't necessarily a bad idea. The best way for them to see the peninsula reunified is for the North Korean people to rise up. However, I don't know if that's ever likely to happen the way things are going now.
Quote:
But I think that's the real issue. America isn't the greatest threat to North Korea. South Korea is. And the mistake of the sunshine policy was in not realizing that South Korea doesn't HAVE to be a military threat to North Korea to still be an existential threat. It just needs to be the more prosperous Korean state, thus threatening the other states legitimacy.
Absolutely. Though America is a bigger direct threat (in that it enforces the sanctions), South Korea is the bigger existential threat.

Quote:
I don't know how comfortable the South Koreans are being right next door to the China (plus side: Chinese less crazy. Downside: China isn't always friendly, and MUCH bigger), and I KNOW that the Chinese won't be happy with the US presence in the peninsula moving upwards northward to their border.
In terms of security, for South Korea, North Korea is De Facto a border with China anyway. I think the bigger concern is probably on China's part. China wants to surround itself with buffer states on all sides that are not allied to a foreign power the way South Korea is.
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:50   Link #26745
Ithekro
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I'd point out that North Korea pulled out of the NPT before the US invaded Iraq, and did so because rumors that North Korea was making weapons grade uranium, resulting in an embargo of oil from the US as per a 1994 agreement based on the 1993 North Korean theat to leave the treaty to make nuclear weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_K...ss_destruction

So 2003 wasn't the first time North Korea made noise about nukes.
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Old 2013-02-27, 20:37   Link #26746
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'd point out that North Korea pulled out of the NPT before the US invaded Iraq, and did so because rumors that North Korea was making weapons grade uranium, resulting in an embargo of oil from the US as per a 1994 agreement based on the 1993 North Korean theat to leave the treaty to make nuclear weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_K...ss_destruction

So 2003 wasn't the first time North Korea made noise about nukes.
This.

Really. It's a bit Americano-centric to blame all of North Korea's behavior on the United States. There are PLENTY of countries that hate the United States/rubbed the USA the wrong way, but almost none of them are as fundamentally broken as Korea.
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Old 2013-02-27, 21:06   Link #26747
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Inside China's Legal, Hidden Tiger Farming Trade

Quote:
Tigers are some of the biggest victims of the wildlife trade, with the rare cats' bones coveted for traditional medicine and their coats prized as rugs. In Vietnam, tiger parts are so valuable that they make for better bribes than cash. In China, however, tiger parts are in such high demand that tigers are being farmed like chickens.

According to a new report from the Environmental Investigation Agency, China's tiger farms are huge, with thousands of captive tigers being bred for slaughter. That's possible because China has essentially legalized the tiger trade, which is troubling considering China is a signatory of the CITES treaty, which bans international trade in tiger parts (amongst other animals, like rhinos and elephants) and which also calls for domestic trade prohibitions.
Read more: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/ins...#ixzz2M9hZNv2Q
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Old 2013-02-27, 21:51   Link #26748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
This.

Really. It's a bit Americano-centric to blame all of North Korea's behavior on the United States. There are PLENTY of countries that hate the United States/rubbed the USA the wrong way, but almost none of them are as fundamentally broken as Korea.
Same feeling for me too. The fundamental difference between other not-so-friendly countries (Venezuela, Cuba, etc.) and North Korea is that the others are a hell lot more pragmatic (and more forward-minded) than the Juche, always living with a paranoid mentality of the past.

Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2013-02-27 at 22:31.
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Old 2013-02-27, 22:09   Link #26749
Ithekro
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Most of the others do not spent anywhere near the amount of money on their militaries to even moderately threaten the United States. (That and in Cuba and Venezuela's cases, they are within what we consider our backyard under the Monroe Doctrine. Plus in Cuba's case, 90 miles is way too close for them to stirup anything without major backing).

North Korea has a massive army and spends way too much on their military, thus making them at least a moderate threat to overseas US forces, and a minor threat to the rest of he country if they can get a missile this far.
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Old 2013-02-27, 22:40   Link #26750
Ridwan
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I like how the topic of North Korea has been brought up for countless of times, with the very same points being brushed up over and over again and people just still don't get it. I read about this country who has been so cruel to their own people and behaving like dicks in international community. I think they'll collapse on their own, judging from what little I've gathered from internet and whatever my friends have told me. Barring that, we should just bomb them to oblivion because it will do wonders to the welfare of their oppressed people and the world peace in general.
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Old 2013-02-27, 22:41   Link #26751
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I think the real problem is if the state collapses. Refugees, hardened fanatics and "lost" soldiers streaming out of there as factions turn on each other.

That boy is desperate to make these comments. Something must have gone seriously wrong in the upper echelons of society. If it is factionalism, those bombs that are to be dropped better wipe out the entire population.
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Old 2013-02-27, 22:50   Link #26752
Ridwan
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Like it or not, the current arrangement is simply what's the best available for everyone.
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Old 2013-02-27, 23:07   Link #26753
Terrestrial Dream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think the real problem is if the state collapses. Refugees, hardened fanatics and "lost" soldiers streaming out of there as factions turn on each other.

That boy is desperate to make these comments. Something must have gone seriously wrong in the upper echelons of society. If it is factionalism, those bombs that are to be dropped better wipe out the entire population.
Should never go that far.

For me gradual reunification is the best way for Korea to be one. I drool at the prospect of North Korea's resources and cheap labors with South Korean capital. South should just send North few Starcraft videos and they will be amazed at our ability to manage workers and resources.
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Old 2013-02-27, 23:16   Link #26754
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Should never go that far.

For me gradual reunification is the best way for Korea to be one. I drool at the prospect of North Korea's resources and cheap labors with South Korean capital. South should just send North few Starcraft videos and they will be amazed at our ability to manage workers and resources.
He was just trying his best to sound sarcastic. At least, that's what I'd like to believe.
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Old 2013-02-27, 23:56   Link #26755
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
He was just trying his best to sound sarcastic. At least, that's what I'd like to believe.
Just indirectly quoting the mantra of "no man, no problem." Kill every last one and your problem is solved, other than the unpleasant taste in everyone's stomaches.

I think the Korean reunification is a good solution ONLY if the North has enough lolis to compliment the South's bishoujo population.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-02-27, 23:59   Link #26756
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Just indirectly quoting the mantra of "no man, no problem." Kill every last one and your problem is solved, other than the unpleasant taste in everyone's stomaches.

I think the Korean reunification is a good solution ONLY if the North has enough lolis to compliment the South's bishoujo population.
I see. Though I'd suggest you to sound a little bit more ironic next time.
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Old 2013-02-28, 00:05   Link #26757
Ithekro
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Well with the limited amount of food going around in North Korea, there women will have grown less and thus be shorter. Loli by comparison might work for you.
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Old 2013-02-28, 00:10   Link #26758
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well with the limited amount of food going around in North Korea, there women will have grown less and thus be shorter. Loli by comparison might work for you.
One doesn't even need Korean reunification to get one. Just order one via a Manchurian middleman.
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Old 2013-02-28, 01:18   Link #26759
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
I see. Though I'd suggest you to sound a little bit more ironic next time.
Nah, Saintess is a pretty cool guy, I knew he didn't have that kind of intention .
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Old 2013-02-28, 01:23   Link #26760
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Nah, Saintess is a pretty cool guy, I knew he didn't have that kind of intention .
He's pushing himself too hard.
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Last edited by Ridwan; 2013-02-28 at 02:01.
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