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Old 2013-02-27, 15:52   Link #41
GDB
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
Why is everyone complaining about this chapter??? This is easily the most important back stories of the series being told that will explain why the world is the way it is, and will explain the conflict between hashirama and madara, and will effect sasukes decision...basically setting up how the manga will end.

But this is stuff you already know right?

You knew Madara and Hashirama met as kids right?
You knew they had the same ideals before the truce was ever made right?
You knew Hashirama had another brother and madara had 3 other brothers right?
You know how they fell out and shaped the current world as it is right?

Oh you don't? Then shut up and keep reading.
We knew they knew each other, but them meeting as kids means nothing.

Them having the same ideals before the truce merely shows, once again, that Madara is a common Uchiha who "fell to darkness", pushing down our throats that Uchiha are all innocent victims of their brain disease.

Them having more brothers means nothing. We went over 600 chapters knowing only one brother each, so clearly the other brothers don't mean anything beyond possibly being the reason for Edo Tensei's creation. But then, do we really care why Edo Tensei was created? No, we don't, and we've been fine not knowing since it was used on the third.

We know they fell out, and we know Madara goes crazy from the sharingan. Beyond that, we'll see what slight nuances are added. But again, it'll likely come down to Uchiha brain disease claiming a victim.

So how about you let people state their opinions rather than acting like any tiny bit of information, regardless of how useless it is, is some vital link in the story that we couldn't do without?
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:00   Link #42
felix
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(Seeing as GDB posted a very similar post to mine, for the record, we're not ganging up on you and don't have anything against you Sasukemaru; some of us just don't find the chapter "informative")
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:01   Link #43
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True this chapter had nothing special happen but this week's bleach was even more uneventful. It was kinda nice to see what kinda kid madara was, hopefully his reason fore becoming evil won't be as retarded as a obito's
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:08   Link #44
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For now it seems as though Kishimoto is simply reinforcing the foundation of Madara and Hashirama, and hopefully this will help us understand something he'll reveal later on in Hashirama's answer as well as a better perspective on the history of all this strife, otherwise I'd agree it will be mostly useless. What he'll reveal may also be a retcon, and this is probably the best way of introducing it into the story, oh well.

I don't enjoy the way these explanations tend to feel so dragged out; and are timed less than ideal (e.g. Kabuto's story's timing). Still, I don't think the story is that bad considering we are learning about epic characters, and the fight was pretty phenomenal. We probably wouldn't be hearing/readng a "peep" from most of these members complaining had this been a back-story about the Uzumaki clan though.

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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
True this chapter had nothing special happen but this week's bleach was even more uneventful. It was kinda nice to see what kinda kid madara was, hopefully his reason fore becoming evil won't be as retarded as a obito's
I think something may have happened to his brother, with the senju somehow invovled. Obito told us one version, but it seems like theres more to the story considering the way Madara became quite furious when Hashirama mentioned his brother, and replied "How dare you..."
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:10   Link #45
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pretty good chapter, its good to know that madara had 4 brothers and his last remaining brother was the brother he valued the most because it was his very last surviving brother.

shows how both also wanted peace, and seems madara was twisted more and more by death around him and the 1st never really strayed off his path.
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:12   Link #46
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
I hope Kishomoto does not drag this out over 10 or so chapters. I do think Sasuke's talk with the Hokage is important but don't over do it with the backstory. It would be especially lame if Sasuke hears all this and was like "Hmmmm, yeah I'm still going to seek revenge on the village." Maybe he will do that anyway but hopefully these revelations will effect his conscience.
I doubt Sasuke will seek revenge on Konoha after this. This chapter shows the problems were around long before Konoha even existed. Destroying Konoha wouldn't change a thing. It wouldn't end wars or bring peace. Yes, Kishi looks like he will finally be moving Sasuke beyond revenge and give him a greater goal.

Sasuke will likely adopt the persona of a dark savoir that was hinted at when water guy released Orochimaru's prisoners. And the opposite of Naruto's good savior. He will probably come to the conclusion that the only way to change things is to destroy everything and build again without the old orthodoxies.

Naruto and Sasuke will both have the same goal then. To change what it means to be a shinobi so that there is a chance for peace. They will just go about it in different ways. Naruto with his usual crap about believing in the good of people and that he can change them. Sasuke believing that there is no hope and things must start anew. So there is the conflict and the chance for Naruto to "save" Sasuke.
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:22   Link #47
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Other than answering Sasuke's question, I think we're working towards answering what actually happened to the Senju clan. (other than just, they all died!)
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:25   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
He will probably come to the conclusion that the only way to change things is to destroy everything and build again without the old orthodoxies.
He just needs a mask and to dye his hair blond and all will be set for the grand finale...
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Old 2013-02-27, 16:58   Link #49
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
(Seeing as GDB posted a very similar post to mine, for the record, we're not ganging up on you and don't have anything against you Sasukemaru; some of us just don't find the chapter "informative")
@Sasukemaru
and then there are those of us that did find this chapter slightly informative. we can discuss what this nuances mean to the story. im all for speculating whether or not these details have any real meaning to the story...they obviously dont have to, but we got a whole week until we find out..
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Old 2013-02-27, 17:22   Link #50
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I actually liked this chapter. Not so much from the change of pace, but for the story/backgrounds of two of the greatest.

This really proves the saying, "The path to Hell is paved with good intentions". They both wanted the same thing - peace. And yet, because they are two different people, they arrive at two different ways to achieve it.
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Old 2013-02-27, 18:04   Link #51
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
It would be especially lame if Sasuke hears all this and was like "Hmmmm, yeah I'm still going to seek revenge on the village." Maybe he will do that anyway but hopefully these revelations will effect his conscience.
I'd love it if he did that. He won't, but it'd be awesome. Sasuke's revenge never seemed to be about justice, only avenging his clan. So as someone who's already passed judgement and simply wants to hear what the guilty plead, I could understand him going ahead and carrying out the punishment even after hearing a moving story. I believe he's capable of being that cold-hearted. He ran a chidori through his own subordinate without thinking twice...but Sasuke has to be redeemed, so it won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Naruto and Sasuke will both have the same goal then. To change what it means to be a shinobi so that there is a chance for peace. They will just go about it in different ways. Naruto with his usual crap about believing in the good of people and that he can change them. Sasuke believing that there is no hope and things must start anew. So there is the conflict and the chance for Naruto to "save" Sasuke.
Very likely this will happen, but that's pretty much been the endgame of more than a few of the villains. Destroy everything and recreate the world from the ashes. It'd be a shame if Sasuke fell into that worn-out trope.
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Old 2013-02-27, 19:38   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
I actually liked this chapter. Not so much from the change of pace, but for the story/backgrounds of two of the greatest.

This really proves the saying, "The path to Hell is paved with good intentions". They both wanted the same thing - peace. And yet, because they are two different people, they arrive at two different ways to achieve it.
Well put. I kinda liked the chapter as well. One thing I'd say it's did not like is the redundancy, too many parallels. I even every generation is a copy of the previous down to the character archetypes.

Also no one in naruto that I can remember is pure evil. I that is kinda of a let down I can't I was hoping madara to be such a character.

Oh yeah there was kukazu and hidan but they did play that big of role St villains Imo, and except for shikamaru revenge and naruto target practice.
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Old 2013-02-27, 22:45   Link #53
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I'm a fan of flashbacks, so I can say that I enjoyed this chapter somewhat. I did think that introducing, and then later on, killing Itama was so trivial that I didn't really noticed any relevancy until I read some of the posts on here. Itama isn't even worth talking about, he was just a plot tool or whatever the term you use in literature when you make up a person just to prove a point.

I think the dynamic between Mardara and Hashirima diverges from the parallels that we've seen with Naruto and Sasuke, Ori and Jiraya and so forth. It's not like Mardara and Hashirama saw each other often, they didn't fight or train together (that we know of) and they didn't see other purely as rivals...they seem to have some sort of mutual understanding, and that's kind of refreshing to see. Seems like the kind of relationships that you build at a youth camp with a random stranger...there's a mutual understanding, but then when you leave for home, it's not something you ponder really about.

All in all, enjoyable chapter for me...I love flashbacks..especially of interesting characters



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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
Well put. I kinda liked the chapter as well. One thing I'd say it's did not like is the redundancy, too many parallels. I even every generation is a copy of the previous down to the character archetypes.

Also no one in naruto that I can remember is pure evil. I that is kinda of a let down I can't I was hoping madara to be such a character.

Oh yeah there was kukazu and hidan but they did play that big of role St villains Imo, and except for shikamaru revenge and naruto target practice.

I think that that's the beauty of Naruto. Nobody is truly evil, even in the real world, nobody fit the definition of the villain that you are looking for. Even Hitler did good deeds for the working force of Germany, he built sports complexes, and gave unions power to help the working class...obviously, he did some very bad things too, but even the man that history books calls the most evil person of history had some good intent in him.

So for Kishi to not go with fantasy land where there's a clear-cut hero and a stone cold villain is very commendable. Mardara was a normal knucklehead until his ideology was rocked by his life circumstances.

I don't think I like the idea of him having four brothers, that takes away from the Uchiha dynamic in my opinion. Didn't he love all of his brothers unconditionally? Was it because his favorite brother died that he went off the wall?

I hope we get an answer for all of this.
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Old 2013-02-28, 01:04   Link #54
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Also no one in naruto that I can remember is pure evil. I that is kinda of a let down I can't I was hoping madara to be such a character.
I like to believe most people will usually try to be an at least reasonably “good” person according to their world-paradigm, however we know that good and evil can be very subjective terms. Some people define evil as being extremely selfish/hedonistic in any and all situations, some define it as being perceptual: immoral behavior based on a code of conduct, some people label it as a genetic illness. Certain crimes we hear about from the news are described as horrendously evil acts, and simultaneously reported to be caused by genetic illnesses. How would you define the pure evil you're looking for in this manga, and who do you believe comes closest to it?
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Old 2013-02-28, 01:47   Link #55
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Originally Posted by yogotah View Post
I think that that's the beauty of Naruto. Nobody is truly evil, even in the real world, nobody fit the definition of the villain that you are looking for. Even Hitler did good deeds for the working force of Germany, he built sports complexes, and gave unions power to help the working class...obviously, he did some very bad things too, but even the man that history books calls the most evil person of history had some good intent in him.

So for Kishi to not go with fantasy land where there's a clear-cut hero and a stone cold villain is very commendable. Mardara was a normal knucklehead until his ideology was rocked by his life circumstances.
Kishi did write one truly evil character. Hidan. He was the only character without any redeeming qualities and existed to cause pure chaos. His backstory was simply that he hated that his village was peaceful and killed people. That was it. Compare that to Kakuzu who was screwed over by his village and treated like crap after getting beat by Hashirama. The Jashin cult found Hidan and gave him the power and immortality to keep killing in the name of Lord Jashin. So basically crazy killer joins death cult bent on killing and destruction. No "Pet the Dog" moments for him. Even the other Akatsuki seemed to hate him. Kakuzu almost seemed pleased when he learned of his fate from Shikamaru during the war.

Why did Kishi deviate with him compared to the other Akatsuki and villains like Madara? Probably because he didn't want any sympathy for the character when he killed Asuma. And he wanted fans to cheer when Shikamaru owned him. Kishi hasn't repeated this since, even going as far to give Orochimaru somewhat of a sob story. Never mind what he did with Kabuto, Sasori, Nagato, Konan, Deidara, etc.
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Old 2013-02-28, 05:35   Link #56
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My definition of evil is people who do stuff to harm others purely to better themselves, or worse, for personal amusement.

There are some borderline cases where they're deceiving themselves that their cause is just, which makes them wobble between evil and misguided.

And then there's the misguided and the extremists, and the very rare villain who is aware of his own hypocrisy, but still has reason to keep going. I rarely label those as "bad people". I tend to hate the crime rather than the criminal.

This is not counting one-dimensional characters who don't even have any (given) reason at all to do the stuff they do. (think Sound Four)


As far as Naruto goes, Orochimaru is a bit of a borderline case leaning more toward "bad person". He may have some back story to make him what he is, but he is still doing whatever it takes to obtain immortality, and he tried to smash the Leaf, in his own words "on a whim", which is not a "good" reason at all.

Hidan is probably the evilest of them all, like I said he does that stuff for his own amusement.
But others like Deidara who does bad stuff "for Art" or Kakuzu who does it for money count as well.
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Old 2013-02-28, 07:19   Link #57
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Oh dear.. a clear case of over doing the parallels and sins of the father routine.

<Begin with wild shamisen>
This story goes back to the foundation of the hidden villages.

<Queue rapid beating taiko>
Now only one ninja can change history, forever.

NARUTO
<huup>
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Old 2013-02-28, 18:18   Link #58
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Enjoyed the chapter, it's about time we learn about these guys.
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Old 2013-02-28, 18:31   Link #59
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I don't think you're ganging up on me lol...You can think what you want to think, but that's how i think about it.
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Old 2013-02-28, 18:52   Link #60
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I am actually liking this flashback. I thought it was about telling Sasuke something important but it is helping to expand Madara's character. Just don't make it too long. Also I hope Sasuke decides to finally be a good guy after this.
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