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Old 2013-02-10, 20:23   Link #101
Tusjecht
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Or put it another way, Noumi is basically Silver Crow, but swap the wings for the stealing ability. Noumi has most, if not all his potential in DC and the rest of his avatar is one made for weak melee combat.
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Old 2013-02-10, 20:31   Link #102
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Or put it another way, Noumi is basically Silver Crow, but swap the wings for the stealing ability. Noumi has most, if not all his potential in DC and the rest of his avatar is one made for weak melee combat.
But DC is a special move like Headbutt, and Headbutt was right there on the screen.

Why must I answer points I already mentioned?
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Old 2013-02-10, 20:45   Link #103
Tusjecht
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Not everyone thinks like you do...

Edit: removed double point.

So this leaves two possibilities, I think. One, Noumi had some other finisher move at level 1, and later chose DC as his level bonus. Two, DC was always a level up bonus that appeared from level 2 onwards.

The feasibility of Noumi gathering enough points to level up is another question. Unless his brother was kind enough to give him the tutorial, Noumi had to learn duelling the hard and painful way. Plus, he saw BB as this:

Quote:
“...The first thing that that guy gave to me...it was of course «Brain Burst». I was foolishly glad and even excited. That‟s why, just as his first lecture finished, I felt disappointed when he said „Earn ten points every week‟.
So if Noumi lost BB due to inadequacy, he'd lose the only thing Yuuichi has ever given back to him. Desperation, not lust for power, was Noumi's drive to fight in the beginning.
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Last edited by Tusjecht; 2013-02-10 at 21:05.
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Old 2013-02-10, 21:03   Link #104
Tusjecht
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My bad. Sorry Gold, just saw your earlier post.

So then, if DC was not available at level 1, then that's...unusual? For the potential to be fully unlocked after a level up bonus...

Well, this opens up some fanfic character possibilities.
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Old 2013-02-10, 22:19   Link #105
Sunder the Gold
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Guilty until proven innocent.

Why is Taker colored Purple when his only power is Yellowish? Why was it even called Taker if it was built around something other than stealing? Incarnate Skills must fit the nature of the avatar because they both arise from the same wounds of the heart, and the unnamed "purple wave surge" sucked up and obliterated things with an endless, hateful hunger.

Given those wounds of the heart existed BEFORE installing Brain Burst, why would he become such a sweet kid after forgetting Brain Burst? None of his original issues were solved.

I can at least pretend that he's faking the sweetness, and he's actually the same wounded soul he was before Brain Burst, but it might really be something as inexplicably convenient as pixie dust on the brain.

So many authors don't respect the consistency of their own rules, so why ought I believe different in this case? Therefore, why should I believe there's any good reason for Dusk Taker breaking the rules of having equal potential?

Likewise, why ought I believe that there's a good reason why Aviation didn't appear on Silver Crow's screen?


But I'm tired and need to get up early tomorrow after a much-too-short weekend, so I'm feeling kind of bitter.
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Old 2013-02-11, 06:09   Link #106
Orange Duke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That's not evidence. The anime translation made it sound like the victim had an avatar which looked like a starfish, and Taker stole one of his arms.

The evidence is that Taker banishes the tentacles along with the clippers when he gives the vocal command to store all of his equipped enhanced armaments.
And what's wrong with the tentacles being an external armament? O.o Bell's Choir Chime and Cyan Pile's pile driver were external armaments that replaced part of their arm. Why couldn't that be the case for the tentacles too?

Regardless, it does mean that there was a previous owner, so there's no doubt that Taker stole it off him.

As for how Taker leveled up without having any special abilities prior to Demonic Comandeer, he admitted that he did so by blackmailing the Linkers in real life. Crow had never heard of him because he didn't fight duels for points.
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Old 2013-02-11, 10:48   Link #107
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Guilty until proven innocent.
I hope, Gold, that you're like this normally.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Why is Taker colored Purple when his only power is Yellowish? Why was it even called Taker if it was built around something other than stealing?
Low colour saturation of purple = special attack affinity

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But I'm tired and need to get up early tomorrow after a much-too-short weekend, so I'm feeling kind of bitter.
So am I, I'm waking up at 3 for second job (GMT+8). Replyingt he rest tmr.
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Old 2013-02-11, 16:02   Link #108
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
I hope, Gold, that you're like this normally.
I assume you meant to say "NOT like this".

And I'm not. I was tired and cranky, so I was being very bitter and cynical.

It doesn't mean I'm wrong to assume that the author is being inconsistent.


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Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
And what's wrong with the tentacles being an external armament?
There's nothing wrong with that, and there's no question that they are, in fact, an enhanced armament.

I was pointing out that your words, "Tentacles are confirmed to be stolen. Taker specifically mentions them having a previous owner who said they looked like starfish tentacles" did not constitute sound evidence.

I then further described why Taker's words were not clear enough about whether the tentacles were or were not an enhanced armament.


Quote:
As for how Taker leveled up without having any special abilities prior to Demonic Comandeer, he admitted that he did so by blackmailing the Linkers in real life. Crow had never heard of him because he didn't fight duels for points.
I do recall something like that, but I have deliberately not re-watched that episode or read that part of the light novels. I should, eventually, but they leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Still, Taker's improbable success is merely improbable, not inexplicable. I could likewise believe that he begged other Burst Linkers to form tag-teams with him, so that his own weakness could be off-set by someone else's capability. Obviously, that's not what he did, but he could have.

The inexplicable part is Dusk Taker's lack of capability.

The thing that would make the most sense is that his brother did more than merely extort Burst Points from him, but also extorted away whatever enhanced armament that Dusk Taker might have been created with, leaving Noumi with a crippled avatar.

Noumi's brother might have immediately pawned the item at the Shop for Burst Points, or perhaps Noumi was forced to do that himself in order to meet his quota in the early days.

But Noumi doesn't accuse his brother of any such thing. Self-righteous as Noumi is, he would surely not fail to gloat about how he succeeded despite such an injustice.


There is another possibility. Namely, that Dusk Taker always had a hidden power, just as Silver Crow initially did. But for whatever reason, Noumi didn't achieve the trigger condition that would reveal it.

Demonic Commandeer might not have been purchased as a level up bonus, but merely unveiled like Aviation... just much, much later.

This still doesn't explain why either ability would be hidden to begin with, especially since those abilities are the entire focus of the avatars.

Chiyuri didn't understand what Citron Call did, but she was still able to USE it immediately, and it readily appeared on her screen. And probably, the screen explained what it did, but she didn't bother to read it.


Basically, no matter how many possible explanations I come up with, none of them make adequate sense. That's why I suspect that the author DOESN'T have an answer which would fit his own rules.
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Old 2013-02-11, 16:34   Link #109
Tusjecht
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Unless, Gold, it's like Faker: Taker was able to copy his opponent's abilities at first, until he levelled up and spent the bonus on DC instead.

...but it still breaks the rules. Copying and stealing are definitely distinct abilities, the discussion in the fanfic thread has pretty much gone through most points that could be raised. So that might mean author threw out his own rulebook.

Or, DT could steal, but not permanently, and the level up bonus made it a proper stealing move. This might follow the rule because while I didn't see it in the anime, LN says Crow must spend SP to fly, so for Level 1 Taker, he possibly spent SP per second to steal the move.

Conjecture entirely. And no hard feelings, Gold.
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Old 2013-02-11, 21:25   Link #110
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Unless, Gold, it's like Faker: Taker was able to copy his opponent's abilities at first, until he levelled up and spent the bonus on DC instead.
Oh, yeah. That WAS one of my theories.

A Level 4 bonus would definitely be somewhat appropriate for an effect that continues to hinder an opponent even after a duel or a resurrection in the UNF.

And if Demonic Commandeer could still retain copies, it would make some sense that the move requires a full Special Meter to pull off. Since each successful use would make you stronger for future fights, the system punishes you with at least one extremely difficult first battle... or however many it takes to copy an ability.

But...

Quote:
...but it still breaks the rules. Copying and stealing are definitely distinct abilities, the discussion in the fanfic thread has pretty much gone through most points that could be raised. So that might mean author threw out his own rulebook.
If by this you mean that a "Magikarp Power" shouldn't belong in a game like Accel World, I have to agree.

It doesn't matter how weak an avatar is forced to start or how hard they have to work to get there, if an avatar is given the ability to exceed the potential of their level in any way, there would be no point to "Equal Level, Equal Potential" at all.

Dusk Taker's ability allowed him to take Aviation, an ability that required all of Silver Crow's potential, and still had room left for a number of powerful items that Silver Crow could not possess, on top of his ability to steal other, better items as the opportunity or need arose.

Random drops and gifted items can likewise empower an avatar beyond their level, but the difference is that ANYONE can benefit from these, and no one started any weaker than anyone else.


And, by the way, my complaints are laid equally at Copying as well, not just stealing. But with one possible exception.

If Copying can be done as a normal move, without any Special Meter and at the start of a fight, then a copycat has a much better chance of fairly acquiting himself, even in his very first fight.

It's still a Magikarp Power, but not nearly as bad. Especially since, as the opponent is not denied their own power, the copycat runs into the very real and serious problem that he will basically NEVER have decent odds of beating his target at their own game. A Yellow copycat can't match Cyan Pile in a pile-driver duel.

Even if the Copycat had a supplemental ability -- for example, improving the power of a stolen ability by 20% -- the opponent still has superior experience, and all of their other abilities are supplementing the central ability. Cyan Pile is strong enough to lift the pile-driver and to withstand its recoil, and he has the armor to survive a slugging match. A Yellow avatar will not have these advantages, so an unfamiliar and unsuitable weapon doesn't grant good odds even with a 20% power boost.

There's a reason why F/SN's Archer was the weakest as well as the strongest Servant. He had to play a careful Paper-Scissors-Rock game against any other Epic Spirit; trying to Mirror Match them would only end in shame.


Quote:
while I didn't see it in the anime, LN says Crow must spend SP to fly
Yup. He says he needs to build his gauge up to carry Lotus, Pile and Rain across the UNL. In his fight with Rain, he took slight damge from Rain's venier thruster -- just enough SP for flying out of his collapsing building. Then Rain gave him more SP when she shot off his arm.

In his first fight with Dusk Taker, he breaks the headstones first before flying. And of course, his gauge was full when he first used his wings against Cyan Pile.


Quote:
he possibly spent SP per second to steal the move.
I doubt it. When you start a fight without a special move against Cyan Pile, Pile always has the option of Lightning Cyan Spike. Especially if he used destruction bonus to fill his Special Meter first.

Against odds like those, Noumi's reward for surviving long enough to use his Special Ability was to turn the tables. Whereas before, he had nothing like the Pile-Driver or Lighnting Cyan Spike, now Cyan Pile is in Dusk Taker's shoes.

Demonic Commandeer is not cheating, as far as that goes. Turning the tables in such a fashion is very fair. The one who starts with nothing gains everything; the one who starts with everything loses everything.

The problem is in how it can continue to deny a victim their powers. The even greater problem is in how it allows Dusk Taker to retain the stolen power, and then to keep gaining powers beyond his Level Potential.

Well, actually, did he?

Aviation is more than just Silver Crow's wings; it's also in his Kick and Punch attacks; especially the Punch, when it unfolds and unleashes a jet. Silver Crow's SP plummets rapidly whenever he uses Aviation to supplement a Punch or Kick. His wings turn those normal moves into Special Moves.

To my knowledge, we never see Dusk Taker do this. Maybe he just didn't want to. Maybe he immediately went for someone's Dropped Item firearm, which had a "scar investment" low enough that he could squeeze it in around the wing's.

Or maybe Dusk Taker really couldn't duplicate all of Silver Crow's true power, and if they had both fought with wings, Silver Crow's Punches and Kicks would not be put to shame by Pyro Dealer.
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Old 2013-02-13, 02:42   Link #111
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Dusk Taker's ability allowed him to take Aviation, an ability that required all of Silver Crow's potential, and still had room left for a number of powerful items that Silver Crow could not possess, on top of his ability to steal other, better items as the opportunity or need arose.
My guess is that it is only three other items, the bolt clippers, Pyro Dealer, and tentacles. DC failed against CP's pile driver, that could mean no more free space as well. But minor point.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Aviation is more than just Silver Crow's wings; it's also in his Kick and Punch attacks; especially the Punch, when it unfolds and unleashes a jet. Silver Crow's SP plummets rapidly whenever he uses Aviation to supplement a Punch or Kick. His wings turn those normal moves into Special Moves.
Not special moves, Gold. They're still normal moves, but Crow's high speed gives them a lot of energy. Mechanics says kinetic energy is 1/2 x mass x velocity of object squared, so to make up for his light body and still deal enough damage, Crow had to fly as fast as he could.

His foot-to-the-face on Cherry Rook, thus, did so much more damage simply because 1) they were falling from a huge height, lots of speed, and 2) larger combined mass of Cherry, Armour, and Crow. Enough to destroy the stage, and Demonic City as that.

And during his IS training, Crow's last Laser Sword on the old Tokyo tower made his gauntlet open up just like his flying Punch. If IS only unlocks the potential that was always there, then..he never lost Punch? This is what I can think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
There is another possibility. Namely, that Dusk Taker always had a hidden power, just as Silver Crow initially did. But for whatever reason, Noumi didn't achieve the trigger condition that would reveal it.

Demonic Commandeer might not have been purchased as a level up bonus, but merely unveiled like Aviation... just much, much later.

This still doesn't explain why either ability would be hidden to begin with, especially since those abilities are the entire focus of the avatars.
Your point on turning the tables brought up something:

For equal level, equal potential, Dusk Taker MUST have something, this we agree.

So what if Noumi was always able to steal at level 1? In other words, his special move, requiring a full SP gauge, was to steal from the opponent. This is a fair 'turning the tables' move as you said.

However, Noumi was limited because when he stole, it was for that fight and that fight only. Should he steal, win the duel, and challenge another person, the stolen equipment is not retained. In other words, more like borrowing, or KYH's Absolute Cutting.

Thus, his Level 4 bonus, the one that is more suited for fighting in the UNF, is retention; the retaining of the item he stole. In the UNF, this makes sense; after the opponent respawns, the tables are still turned in Taker's favour because he's still holding on to said equipment.

The problem thus arose when this ability was not restricted to the UNF only, so he started using it in duels.
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Old 2013-02-13, 10:12   Link #112
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Bush Utan

Translation: Level 3 Burst Linker, colour is dark, ashy green like grass. First appearance in V5 with Ash Roller during territorial battle. Duel avatar is shorter than Crow, has a hunched-over appearance but is very strong/fit. (Just like orangutans) Both arms can extend.

My response: Doesn't seem that special. Dark green colour predicts special attack affinities, so the long arms seem in line with that.
I don't think extending limbs alone are particularly special for Green avatars.

In any case, he sounds sufficiently different from my "Jade Sage" concept; extending limbs, but a lightweight without as much physical strength. More reliant on the extending limbs than Utan.


Hmm. A thought about "special attack affinities".

Dusk Taker's special move is Yellow, but his body is not. His armor, strength, speed and claws... His body is reasonably strong, designed for direct close-range combat. Not to the extent of a Blue, but far more so than a Yellow could be. Without an indirect normal ability, a Yellow could not survive long enough to fill their Special Meter, but a Purple could.

Bush Utan is strong and tough; definitely built for close-range engagement. He's green because his extending arms allow him to pull and push himself and opponents around, tactically controlling a battle. But his strength combined with his extending limbs might expand his Direct Attack potential into Mid-Range, which is normally Purple.

In contrast to Utan, Jade Sage's attack strength is much lower; he's closer to Yellow than Blue because he relies far more on his extending limbs to control the battle, as well as to make effective attacks. His color is not dark because his extending attacks aren't good at dealing direct damage at long-range (which is outside normal Green potential).

Cyan Pile isn't dark because the author apparently intended for him to be slightly-Purplish Blue, not realizing that cyan is greenish.


I'm going to offer a theory on Blood Leopard -- that her avatar is Red because its initial, humanoid body is weak like a Red. Not much muscle mass; most is concentrated into the legs (especially the thighs, which Haruyuki notes are particularly thick); extremely minimal armor, too.

The transformation into the cat form is Leopard's version of "completely turning the tables". Her avatar goes from speed-based Red to speed-based "Super-Blue", gaining loads more muscle-mass across the entire body; including the jaws.

Blood Leopard could not be a Blue, because no Blue could be as fast as she wants to be. To deliver that kind of potential, the system needed to make her pay for it.

The payment is the initial weak Red avatar, and the time and effort needed to earn her "Super-Blue" cat form. This enforced waiting period might be some reflection on the impatience she seems to show.

SP-Drain seems to be a reflection of her efforts to reduce waiting periods. HP-Drain may be a reflection of a desire to avoid wastefulness; rather than all of that precious HP vanishing into a vaccuum when she inflicts injury, she can conserve some of it by drinking it up.
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Old 2013-02-13, 10:19   Link #113
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I'm going to offer a theory on Blood Leopard -- that her avatar is Red because its initial, humanoid body is weak like a Red. Not much muscle mass; most is concentrated into the legs (especially the thighs, which Haruyuki notes are particularly thick); extremely minimal armor, too.

The transformation into the cat form is Leopard's version of "completely turning the tables". Her avatar goes from speed-based Red to speed-based "Super-Blue", gaining loads more muscle-mass across the entire body; including the jaws.

Blood Leopard could not be a Blue, because no Blue could be as fast as she wants to be. To deliver that kind of potential, the system needed to make her pay for it.

The payment is the initial weak Red avatar, and the time and effort needed to earn her "Super-Blue" cat form. This enforced waiting period might be some reflection on the impatience she seems to show.

SP-Drain seems to be a reflection of her efforts to reduce waiting periods. HP-Drain may be a reflection of a desire to avoid wastefulness; rather than all of that precious HP vanishing into a vaccuum when she inflicts injury, she can conserve some of it by drinking it up.
That was...very well thought out. Until now, I've only thought of trauma producing avatars, not wishes...So this might be how author doesn't actually break his rules.

On this note, might you then respond to my reply on Noumi?
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Old 2013-02-13, 10:44   Link #114
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Not special moves, Gold. They're still normal moves, but Crow's high speed gives them a lot of energy. Mechanics says kinetic energy is 1/2 x mass x velocity of object squared, so to make up for his light body and still deal enough damage, Crow had to fly as fast as he could.

His foot-to-the-face on Cherry Rook, thus, did so much more damage simply because 1) they were falling from a huge height, lots of speed, and 2) larger combined mass of Cherry, Armour, and Crow. Enough to destroy the stage, and Demonic City as that.
I'm talking about one other time, when gravity wasn't on his side. To save Scarlet Rain, a completely level flight:

Quote:
“Stop ittt!”

With that yell, Haruyuki’s fist that was covered by blinding light, hit the deep black jaw in the center.

With a ‘Crunch’ sound, the silver flash split open the lurking darkness. After a pause, as if repulsed by an explosive force, Chrome Disaster was bent back and blown flying away. He bounced on the rubble, then rolled more than ten meters, and fell down with his arms and legs spread apart.

After folding his wings and landing, Haruyuki found out with a glance that «Punch» just now cost half of his special attack gauge.

His flying Punch attack against Cyan Pile had the advantage of gravity, but...

Quote:
As if igniting a rocket engine, Silver Crow’s body charged forward as a bullet of light.

In the left-hand corner of his sight, the green special technique gauge quickly began to decrease. At the same time, the white light wrapped around his right fist endlessly increased its radiance.

Now, obviously using his wings to charge through the air at top speed would consume more SP than hovering in place or floating about. But that doesn't quite explain how his Punch gets into the action, with the unfolding and jets of the forearm.

Perhaps a Flying Punch consumes even more SP than a Flying Dash, and perhaps even achieves greater speed?


Quote:
Thus, his Level 4 bonus, the one that is more suited for fighting in the UNF, is retention; the retaining of the item he stole. In the UNF, this makes sense; after the opponent respawns, the tables are still turned in Taker's favour because he's still holding on to said equipment.
Not entirely. After all, the opponent is restored to full health and 0 special meter, so why shouldn't Dusk Taker likewise be restored to default? (Unless avatars cannot recover HP except through KO/resurrect.)

It's enough of an advantage if he retains the stolen abilities for as long as it takes them to resurrect, because that allows him to use their abilities against any allies who aren't yet KOed.

This is vital, since he's likely lost a lot of HP and SP getting that power; he can't afford to have to turn the tables against fresh opponents when he's not fresh himself.

Even without permanent denial/retention, Demonic Commandeer was sufficiently balanced for the Unlimited Neutral Field. Fight one opponent "fairly", and then try to leverage that power to steal another one before the hour is over, then return to defeat the first opponent with the other power.


Quote:
The problem thus arose when this ability was not restricted to the UNF only, so he started using it in duels.
Even in the UNF, the permanence of Demonic Commandeer is absurd, so it wouldn't be any less absurb in duels.

The ability to inflict such permanent distress upon someone else should never have belonged to a Level 4 avatar. Even Sky Raker's missing legs were as much her own Incarnation as the Level 9 Black Lotus' ability, yes?
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Old 2013-02-13, 11:46   Link #115
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Now, obviously using his wings to charge through the air at top speed would consume more SP than hovering in place or floating about. But that doesn't quite explain how his Punch gets into the action, with the unfolding and jets of the forearm.

Perhaps a Flying Punch consumes even more SP than a Flying Dash, and perhaps even achieves greater speed?
Um...rule of anime. Yelling increases your power.

But this genuinely surprises me, normal moves should not be consuming SP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Not entirely. After all, the opponent is restored to full health and 0 special meter, so why shouldn't Dusk Taker likewise be restored to default? (Unless avatars cannot recover HP except through KO/resurrect.)
This should be the case, because then in the UNF you really can start camping.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
This is vital, since he's likely lost a lot of HP and SP getting that power; he can't afford to have to turn the tables against fresh opponents when he's not fresh himself.
The 'freshness' doesn't matter anymore when DT still has their ability and they don't. Retention, I mean, by the permanent-ness of Commandeer that persisted across revival. Noumi said he killed his brother the long, hard way by killing him each hour, but he only said he stole his brother's ability/armament once.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
The ability to inflict such permanent distress upon someone else should never have belonged to a Level 4 avatar. Even Sky Raker's missing legs were as much her own Incarnation as the Level 9 Black Lotus' ability, yes?
Well, Pile himself said Noumi's potentially game-breaking potential was due to his horrific scars. This scar investment could possibly stretch the level-potential rule, maybe? Unless there's actually simpler way of getting back the armaments Taker stole; by pulling them off his avatar?
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Old 2013-02-13, 12:07   Link #116
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
But this genuinely surprises me, normal moves should not be consuming SP!
Haruyuki said it himself; the power of Aviation turns normal moves like Punch and Kick into special moves.

This may be more than metaphorical. The Aviation ability may specifically state in its rules "using the Punch or Kick attack in conjunction with the Aviation ability appends a Special Meter cost in return for greater effect".

Utan's Elastic Strongarm might work by a similar principle. If it uses SP, it may require less SP to reach out and grab a ledge to pull himself up than it may to fire off an extending Punch.


Quote:
The 'freshness' doesn't matter anymore when DT still has their ability and they don't.
Try again: DT needs to retain a stolen power while someone is KOed, because if someone ELSE comes along in the meantime, DT would be wounded and tired and they probably wouldn't be.

If DT doesn't have the stolen ability for as long as it takes the first victim to respawn, then anyone else who finds him in the meantime can make quick work of him.

I wasn't referring to turning the tables again on the first victim.

Also, even if Dusk Taker loses the ability once the victim respawns, that's after a whole hour in which DT could run away... or charge up his SP Meter. With a full SP Meter, DT has a good chance of using Demonic Commandeer again as soon as the target becomes available.


Quote:
Noumi said he killed his brother the long, hard way by killing him each hour, but he only said he stole his brother's ability/armament once.
But it actually could have happened that way, and Noumi just didn't mention it. Dusk Taker could have challenged/ambushed his brother in the UNF as soon as he hit Level 4.

He's level 5 when he challenges Silver Crow, so that's one more bonus into Commandeer.


Quote:
Well, Pile himself said Noumi's potentially game-breaking potential was due to his horrific scars. This scar investment could possibly stretch the level-potential rule, maybe?
Fuuko says this just doesn't happen, when Haruyuki starts comparing his past to hers.


Quote:
Unless there's actually simpler way of getting back the armaments Taker stole; by pulling them off his avatar?
Possible. How easily or hard it is to steal items is never explained.

Sulphur Pot lost the Mystic Reins, but those might have been a purchased gift or a random drop. Initial equipment and bonus-bought equipment may be harder to lose.

Items stolen with Demonic Commandeer might be similarly hard to steal.
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Old 2013-02-27, 08:56   Link #117
Tusjecht
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 19
Speculation about Black Vise:

We've only seen him use Incarnate attacks against Haru and KYH. LNs also show more about it, where Haru actually tries harder than just resisting:

Quote:
The laminated avatar that was constantly restraining Haruyuki had a grey aura around his right shoulder. Niko had said that the phenomenon of continuously emitted light, in other words «Over-Ray», was proof of the Incarnate System being in use. In other words, these plates were the incarnate technique of that avatar. In that case, he also had to muster all his strength and fight back.
...
Haruyuki sucked in a big breath—and shouted out loudly the name of the incarnate technique that he had just recently named.

“«Laser…Sword»!!”

Then, he crossed his arms, and thrusted the fingertips of his right hand at the left plate and the fingertips of his left hand at the right plate.

*GYAAAAAN!* Along with a high-pitched sound, his swords of elongated light crashed into the jet-black plates and threw off dazzling sparks.

The parts that the swords ate into instantly became red hot as if they had been showered with the flames of a plasma arc. A glow rapidly spread over the surface of the thin plates, and they vibrated violently.

—At this rate, I’ll break through them!!

The moment he cried that out inside his mind and strained all of his image power.

“Oops…my, my, this is serious.”

A calm voice was heard. Then,

“«Static Pressure[1] ».”
...
An even stronger gray aura was being released from the laminated avatar’s shoulder. It was already definite that this technique was not a special technique regulated by the system, but a incarnate technique derived from the image power of the enemy avatar.

Through the imagination output of the two sides fighting each other, Haruyuki felt himself touch what filled the inside of the laminated avatar.

Darkness.

Unlike Noumi’s mind power, it wasn’t a hungry nothingness that sought to swallow everything. Although it certainly existed there, it didn’t possess any kind of energy, and therefore did not give nor take, but instead rejected all interference.

No, it wasn’t even an active rejection. It was «isolation». An absolute detachment that couldn’t consider the state of people’s hearts at all.

The instant he felt that, Haruyuki reflexively feared coming into contact with it through mind power.
If Vise's attack, derived from his trauma of «being crushed», then working backwards, his normal attacks also have something to do with «crushing and restraining others»...but the question is how.

Given his avatar shape...would it be likely that he crushes another avatar normally by expanding his body, surrounding the avatar (either by his shadow travel skill or otherwise), and then forcefully crushing them?
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Last edited by Tusjecht; 2013-02-28 at 02:32.
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Old 2013-02-27, 20:32   Link #118
Sunder the Gold
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Why do you spoil-tag something in Volume 4 (which is translated AND animated), but not something that is only revealed later (and which is neither)?

Vise's defining trauma was NOT covered in his first appearance.


Also, Takumu's trauma was combined with a desire to inflict the same trauma upon others. I think it would be odd if Vise's powers were based on that phobia alone. The author might have done just that, but I would disagree about it making sense.

Still, it does seem possible that Black Vise normally has to use his whole body against an enemy, and he uses the Incarnate System to cheat up a safer attack.
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Old 2013-02-27, 21:32   Link #119
Tusjecht
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 19
[seems like my reply wasn't posted]

That's because, I'm at a conflict at using the spoiler tag. I and LN thread apparently consider most canon material to be spoilers, but with you I have to distinct between what has been animated AND written, between what has been not, and then you want me to place the former in spoiler tags, when other readers do not know about future events.

Moving to Vise, I fully knew his trauma is unknown till now; that his trauma is possibly «being crushed» is a speculation, which I speculated on again.
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Old 2013-03-10, 09:59   Link #120
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Moving to Vise, I fully knew his trauma is unknown till now; that his trauma is possibly «being crushed» is a speculation, which I speculated on again.
I misinterpreted your meaning for the word "if".

Sometimes people use it in place of "since", because they are treating a fact as though it were a theory. (Reasons vary, but many times it is because they don't trust the information to be reliable.)

For example, "If Red is the long-range direct damage color, then Blood Leopard should not be Red," when spoken by someone who has some reason to dislike the color system or whom doesn't trust the author to remain consistent.


Not that I assumed you doubted your information.
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