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Old 2013-02-28, 19:10   Link #61
yogotah
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Kishi did write one truly evil character. Hidan. He was the only character without any redeeming qualities and existed to cause pure chaos. His backstory was simply that he hated that his village was peaceful and killed people. That was it. Compare that to Kakuzu who was screwed over by his village and treated like crap after getting beat by Hashirama. The Jashin cult found Hidan and gave him the power and immortality to keep killing in the name of Lord Jashin. So basically crazy killer joins death cult bent on killing and destruction. No "Pet the Dog" moments for him. Even the other Akatsuki seemed to hate him. Kakuzu almost seemed pleased when he learned of his fate from Shikamaru during the war.

Why did Kishi deviate with him compared to the other Akatsuki and villains like Madara? Probably because he didn't want any sympathy for the character when he killed Asuma. And he wanted fans to cheer when Shikamaru owned him. Kishi hasn't repeated this since, even going as far to give Orochimaru somewhat of a sob story. Never mind what he did with Kabuto, Sasori, Nagato, Konan, Deidara, etc.
That's right, I almost forgot about Hidan. I guess he was the "fantasy land " evil person that just liked to kill and destroy because he genuinely enjoyed it.

I think you hit the nail right on the head when you wrote that Kishi just made Hidan the "evil" man to make us feel no sympathy for them, especially if they were to kill Asuma (which by the way, I had no previous attachments too, we barely ever saw him do anything..but I digress).

I think the way Kishi portrays villains are very realistic, like I've said before, everyone has had good intent in some parts of their life and to ignore that is just intellectual laziness.

That being said, once someone has turned completely evil, meaning that their ideology has totally become cemented and demented, then I don't have a problem with them doing evil acts or the hero destroying them without their chance at redemption. I mean we can't have every villain repenting a minute before their death and thinking about how wrong they were; let's at least make some of villains determined and committed to their ideas and die with them...like Danzo did (boy I hated that guy)
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Old 2013-02-28, 19:58   Link #62
amaterasu4
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Well thanks to his death Danzo ended turning into a more complex dude since he believed making his hand dirty would save the village. Still, the next flashbacks kept featuring him as a dark character.

Going back to the scroll Suigetsu found it looks to be an extremely powerful technique that only the Uchiha can make which could also expand why Orochimaru was so interested in Sasuke.
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Old 2013-03-01, 03:42   Link #63
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Harashima's haircut. Foreshadowing Rock Lee to be his descendant
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Old 2013-03-01, 04:54   Link #64
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Danzou was a different kind of people. He was extremely condescending to those who disagree with his views and believes that you can either agree with him or be wrong.

Those guys rub me the wrong way.
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Old 2013-03-01, 07:23   Link #65
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Originally Posted by solidguy View Post
Harashima's haircut. Foreshadowing Rock Lee to be his descendant
Lol, maybe that's why rock Lee was able to land a hit on Madara, he reminded him of his childhood friend and caught him by surprised.
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Old 2013-03-01, 11:41   Link #66
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Was Kawarama also a sibling of Harshirama? He does have the -rama suffix like his brothers.
It looks like all of the 1st's and Madara's efforts were all for naught since kids are still dying in this time and age as well. Being an orphan seems to be a likely occurs ce as well. Too bad Madara is the cause of it. It seems he really did fall from grace in a dramatic fashion.
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Old 2013-03-01, 12:49   Link #67
Ero-Senn1n
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It's funny how they had 5-6 brothers in that age but in Naruto's age people have mostly 1 or 2 children. It's like a transition from feudal age into modern western age in less than a hundred years. At least the old world in the flashback is more realistic in this matter, they had to have so many children to have at lest one survive until the mating age. As opposed to that the in the village system they still had their children die in wars and missions but they didn't have as much children, so it would make sense that the Senju died out not because they were destroyed but because they didn't have enough children. Tsunade's brother died and she doesn't have any children, no wonder that her genes and her clan dies out In Naruto's generation none of them has a stronger relationship that would result in children, but that's ok since Naruto will resurrect them if they die and Kishimoto will add another timeskip to see them with their children
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Old 2013-03-01, 13:17   Link #68
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
so it would make sense that the Senju died out not because they were destroyed but because they didn't have enough children. Tsunade's brother died and she doesn't have any children, no wonder that her genes and her clan dies out
i know you're being somewhat facetious, but i wouldn't buy this explanation from kishi if that's what he has in mind. sasuke only has the one brother and the uchiha had a pretty large clan as opposed to the senju who were apparently already mostly gone when sasuke was young. i guess he could do a 'children of men' thing and have the senju become incapable of bearing children? it's one of the few options that would sort of make sense, but then they would be an even more cursed clan than the uchiha...

edited a bit
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Old 2013-03-01, 13:18   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It's funny how they had 5-6 brothers in that age but in Naruto's age people have mostly 1 or 2 children. It's like a transition from feudal age into modern western age in less than a hundred years.
Why feudal? It's just like the real transition between now and a hundred years ago and we weren't in a state of perpetual total war then.
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
sasuke only has the one brother and the uchiha had a pretty large clan as opposed to the senju who were apparently already mostly gone when sasuke when young.
You're making this up, we know for a fact that the Uchiha clan had dwindled and we know nothing whatsoever about the number of Senju.
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Old 2013-03-01, 13:46   Link #70
itachi-san314
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You're making this up, we know for a fact that the Uchiha clan had dwindled and we know nothing whatsoever about the number of Senju.
how am i making that up? of course i dont have an exact number on the uchiha members before the annihilation, but we saw a bunch of them in various scenes. they were the police force and there were also non-sharingan using family members and children. in other words they may have dwindled from their former headcount, but they were still existent as a clan and included multiple generations. what evidence do you have that there were senju around? just the fact that they weren't shown should be proof enough of their non-existence. if there was a senju clan around the time of the uchiha massacre and they just weren't mentioned then that's just plain bad writing.

kishi: oh by the way, the senju were there, i just never mentioned it... and then they vanished. believe it!
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Old 2013-03-01, 16:51   Link #71
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Didn't the Senju bloodline just get mixed into some other families in the village?
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Old 2013-03-01, 18:42   Link #72
Ero-Senn1n
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Why feudal? It's just like the real transition between now and a hundred years ago and we weren't in a state of perpetual total war then.
Yes, that's true, i said feudal because they keep saying "feudal lords" in the translations. But then they have only 1 or 2 children, which is kinda unrealistic when we learn how many of them died, and even in Naruto's generation they are pushed to the edge so the world doesn't feel safe (like a modern world) at all. So at least in the era of Hashirama things were more realistic. Not that they should be realisic If the clans really had 1 or 2 children most of them would die out in a few decades. But i guess Kishimoto most likely will find another cause why the Senju are no more.

A hundred years ago sure we didn't have total wars every day, but still the world was filled with death, there were world wars and local wars, famines caused by nature or the government, epidemics, lot of childbirth deaths. So i could have compared this to a 100 ago in most of the world (not counting some good places).

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i know you're being somewhat facetious
Well, Kishimoto was never good with numbers so i shouldn't complain at all
At least he made a huge massacre out of this war, by now there should be about 60-70 thousand dead ninjas. As things are now i see a huge mass revival coming, all those who died in the war are dead for at most 2 days, so they could be resurrected with the rinnegan. I mean can thousands of people be killed permanently in a manga that's for children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
sasuke only has the one brother and the uchiha had a pretty large clan as opposed to the senju who were apparently already mostly gone when sasuke was young.
We don't know anything about that yet, it should be explained later. Or maybe some senju still exist but we never saw them. Kishimoto just does things that way, remember Hinata's love confession to Naruto where nothing happened, or more generally: Naruto never ever asked about his parents in about 10 years of the manga. Then we see in this war that Shikamaru's clan is quite large but we never saw any of them until now. Same with Asuma's and Sarutobi's clan. So who knows maybe we see a dozen Senju in the next non-flashback chapter.
I can imagine that the Uchiha had to be a relatively larger clan because they survived Madara's bloody rule. Remember that when he became leader of the clan he set up the rule to kill their best friends and brothers for the MS/EMS eyes, that sure didn't help to increase their numbers.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-03-01 at 18:55.
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Old 2013-03-01, 18:47   Link #73
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I read somewhere a million is a statistic, so no one cares. Apparently.
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Old 2013-03-01, 19:58   Link #74
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
how am i making that up?
You made 2 claims within one sentence which are either unsubstantiated or flatly wrong. The Uchiha clan had dwindled to the point that most of them were part of a single division of the Police Force, we don't know how large that is of course but considering this is the only known information saying that they were a "pretty large" number in comparison to an unknown quantity is ridiculous.
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what evidence do you have that there were senju around? just the fact that they weren't shown should be proof enough of their non-existence.
Read what you just said. I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, I'm serious : just read and actually think about what you are saying.
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Old 2013-03-01, 21:53   Link #75
Ero-Senn1n
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The Uchiha clan had dwindled to the point that most of them were part of a single division of the Police Force,
Was that in the manga or data books? I don't remember it, 12 years of manga sure is a too long time

Speaking of which, it would be cool to have a flashback where the police force investigates some murders and it turns out the murderers are the local mafia/yakuza and their boss did it, but the boss has strong political connections so he can't be arrested. The evil boss being Danzou of course, the police leader could be Sasuke's father. The anime team should do fillers like that instead the crap they're doing usually.
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Old 2013-03-01, 22:42   Link #76
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Was that in the manga or data books? I don't remember it, 12 years of manga sure is a too long time
Both. However you may have missed it back then because Inane had mistranslated the sentence when Itachi mentioned it to Sasuke during his extended flashback at the beginning of his fight with Naruto.
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Old 2013-03-02, 00:56   Link #77
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Read what you just said. I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, I'm serious : just read and actually think about what you are saying.
LOL "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!!" - Gin Rummy, Boondocks
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Old 2013-03-02, 03:28   Link #78
itachi-san314
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^i totally don't get what you guys are saying... are you saying that the senju were around during the uchiha massacre? and possibly just as large a clan as the uchiha? ...and of course just never mentioned... you know... the clan that is the most elite of all ninja...

even if that pans out to be true, it doesn't make it less ridiculous
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Old 2013-03-02, 06:00   Link #79
Ero-Senn1n
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the clan that is the most elite of all ninja...
Just because Hashirama was stronger than Madara it doesn't mean that his clan is better. The 2 clans were nearly equal, and they were the 2 best clans, that's all we know. In the manga there were some pictures of both Hashirama and Madara standing in front of their clan, and it seemed that both clans have a decent amount of people, that was when Konoha was formed.

BTW i'm really interested why did Hashirama make a deal with a guy who had his clan's members kill each other to gain more power. Sure those were sick times according to this chapter, Hashirama's father saying that sending children into a war to die as ninjas is a sign of love. When you have that sort of love in a clan it's no wonder the clan will soon be extinct
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Old 2013-03-02, 10:21   Link #80
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I for one think Ero-Sennin makes a good point, many times i have thought there was a lack of sex education for young ninja.Some families seem to be fine but the orphans are never giving "the talk".Naruto didn't recognize a pregnant woman, Sasuke's lack of interest in a girl friend,these are signs of ignorance about sex. Jiraiya wasn't that much of a pervert, just a frustrated man that needed to make babies.
This lack of sexual pursuit for greater fighting power is a problem,funny as it may sound. Not to hard to believe though. Radical Muslims in this world suffer from strict celibacy, making them violently lash out against over sexed westerners.This of course is probably not a topic meant to be part of Kishimotos story,however make love not war is a solution that has been presented before in other cases.
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