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Old 2013-03-01, 12:52   Link #501
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Thing is, a lot of Americans feel this way... Don't get me wrong, there are hawkish, uninformed people too, but there's a large diversity of opinion and competing traditions now of this global police sect vs the original 'no foreign entanglements' philosophy. It's close-minded to think that there aren't Americans that still subscribe to the latter.
Nowadays it is pretty irrelevant what the average american thinks about foreign policy since you either have a republican president that embraces the military industrial complex like baby sucking at his mother tit or you have a democrat president afraid to openly oppose them and with good reasons, he could be assassinated for opposing the military complex. So in the end what the average non-USA citizens sees are the results of USA foreign policy and if the average citizen is against it, shouldn't they rebel against the goverment? <--- that is what some USA citizens say about Iran.
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Old 2013-03-01, 13:52   Link #502
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Nowadays it is pretty irrelevant what the average american thinks about foreign policy since you either have a republican president that embraces the military industrial complex like baby sucking at his mother tit or you have a democrat president afraid to openly oppose them and with good reasons, he could be assassinated for opposing the military complex. So in the end what the average non-USA citizens sees are the results of USA foreign policy and if the average citizen is against it, shouldn't they rebel against the goverment? <--- that is what some USA citizens say about Iran.
Would you want to be part of a rebellion? I know I sure wouldn't. I understand there are things worth fighting for, but in the end we only have one life to live and I don't expect people to be clamoring to sacrifice it, even if there are huge problems with the current system. It sounds to me like you're trying to justify hating Americans as a whole because of the government's actions. It's unjustifiable, so don't bother trying.
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Old 2013-03-01, 14:03   Link #503
willx
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Nowadays it is pretty irrelevant what the average american thinks about foreign policy since you either have a republican president that embraces the military industrial complex like baby sucking at his mother tit or you have a democrat president afraid to openly oppose them and with good reasons, he could be assassinated for opposing the military complex. So in the end what the average non-USA citizens sees are the results of USA foreign policy and if the average citizen is against it, shouldn't they rebel against the goverment? <--- that is what some USA citizens say about Iran.
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Would you want to be part of a rebellion? I know I sure wouldn't. I understand there are things worth fighting for, but in the end we only have one life to live and I don't expect people to be clamoring to sacrifice it, even if there are huge problems with the current system. It sounds to me like you're trying to justify hating Americans as a whole because of the government's actions. It's unjustifiable, so don't bother trying.
This reminds me of a pseudo-documentary I watched yesterday called:

Right America: Feeling Wronged

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/right...eling-wronged/

It tries incredibly hard to be unbiased but fails because of the content it features, the message it is trying to convey and the fact that the director is Nancy Pelosi's daughter. She followed the McCain campaign trail and went to rallies and conventions all over the "South"

That said, what it does manage to bring out, is this: A very large part of the population, rightly or wrongly, feels disenfranchised and is living in a country they feel do not reflect their views and desires. They also don't get why. They see themselves as "normal" "god-fearing" "good-natured" "hardworking" folk .. so why is everyone else crazy? They just don't and can't get it. They can't make the logical leap and they've been "left behind" .. it's quite sad really. Some people start tearing up or outright crying without being able to properly explain why they feel so lost and alone, adrift in a country they live in, but they don't feel is really still their own.
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Old 2013-03-01, 14:04   Link #504
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Would you want to be part of a rebellion? I know I sure wouldn't. I understand there are things worth fighting for, but in the end we only have one life to live and I don't expect people to be clamoring to sacrifice it, even if there are huge problems with the current system. It sounds to me like you're trying to justify hating Americans as a whole because of the government's actions. It's unjustifiable, so don't bother trying.
I am not trying to justify hating US citizens or the USA, I am just making clear that even if 99.99% of the population there has no interest in warmongering, that does not change the alienation the rest of the world feels at the USA for playing the rogue globocop role. Hate is a strong word, use it carefully.

As a side note, nope, I would not want to be part of a revolution (the last one was a waste of time, money and human lives) but I keep hearing a lot of US citizens in this forum saying they are buying firearms for that very purpose.
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Old 2013-03-01, 14:16   Link #505
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I am not trying to justify hating US citizens or the USA, I am just making clear that even if 99.99% of the population there has no interest in warmongering, that does not change the alienation the rest of the world feels at the USA for playing the rogue globocop role.
Of course, and I agree with you. It just kind of felt like there was some degree of bashing of the actual American populous going on in this thread and I wanted to bring up the disconnect that exists between the government and the citizenry. Like many people living in democracies throughout the world know, it really isn't all that good of a system of actually reflecting peoples values, even if it's the best possible.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Hate is a strong word, use it carefully.
Substitute in 'dislike,' then, I don't really use the word hate in that strong sense when speaking casually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
As a side note, nope, I would not want to be part of a revolution (the last one was a waste of time, money and human lives) but I keep hearing a lot of US citizens in this forum saying they are buying firearms for that very purpose.
In a romantic way, I'd like there to be a better system put in place, but getting there is a miserable process, and one has to take into consideration the possibility of the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" phenomenon that is so common throughout human history (or the possibility of the new boss being even worse, which is also known to happen...)
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Old 2013-03-01, 14:36   Link #506
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
That said, what it does manage to bring out, is this: A very large part of the population, rightly or wrongly, feels disenfranchised and is living in a country they feel do not reflect their views and desires. They also don't get why. They see themselves as "normal" "god-fearing" "good-natured" "hardworking" folk .. so why is everyone else crazy? They just don't and can't get it. They can't make the logical leap and they've been "left behind" .. it's quite sad really. Some people start tearing up or outright crying without being able to properly explain why they feel so lost and alone, adrift in a country they live in, but they don't feel is really still their own.
Interesting observation. It makes sense, too. The United States has always been a diverse nation, and that diversity has arguably increased at a faster pace in recent years with globalization.

The diversity isn't just in people and cultures, but in lifestyles. Big cities, suburbs, and rural life: it's no coincidence that many major urban centers hold views opposite those of people living out among few other people. The issue of gun control is the most obvious example of showing where differences arise. People living in rural areas have legitimate concerns about threats from other people (or animals), and they're isolated enough that police and other assistance can't reach them in time. By comparison, people in major cities are in very close proximity to others who could lend a hand, and firearms seem like an unnecessary hazard that is bound to hit someone even unintentionally due to the higher population density.

Conflicts between these views have probably always existed, but our increased connectivity increases the friction. People used to be blissfully ignorant of the views expressed by people farther away, but now there's constant exposure to views held all around the country. People can easily travel around the country, further mixing these ideas and values around. For better or for worse, the federal government has been playing the power role over our states, meaning that we're getting one-size-fits-all laws that apply to all regions, instead of worrying more about laws tailored to the locality.

Our increased connectivity is fairly new, and some areas of the country are still coming online. While differences owing to location will always exist, my guess is that the increased connectivity will help to further unify and synchronize the nation's views.
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Old 2013-03-01, 15:12   Link #507
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
"god-fearing"
I've always been a bit confused by this term. It makes sense if you're only going by the Old Testament, but pretty much everyone who uses the term to describe themselves is Christian, and as such should go by the New Testament. God in there was all about love and forgiveness, so why should you "fear" him? Respect, follow, love, whatever, sure. But fear? Why are you pretending to be a good person due to fear of wrath of one you believe is all about love?
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Old 2013-03-01, 15:24   Link #508
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I've always been a bit confused by this term. It makes sense if you're only going by the Old Testament, but pretty much everyone who uses the term to describe themselves is Christian, and as such should go by the New Testament. God in there was all about love and forgiveness, so why should you "fear" him? Respect, follow, love, whatever, sure. But fear? Why are you pretending to be a good person due to fear of wrath of one you believe is all about love?
Because you get more bang of the buck by threatening fire and brimstone than the old peace and love shtiz.
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Old 2013-03-01, 15:30   Link #509
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Substitute in 'dislike,' then, I don't really use the word hate in that strong sense when speaking casually.
I strongly dislike soap-operas and sports as couch potato entertainment but you will not see me waste my time and energy going into forums where fans of said type of gather. If I truly disliked the USA or its citizens I would not be here in the first place, albeit I suppose you would do the equivalent since it seems like you feel it is a sensible disposition.
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Old 2013-03-01, 15:45   Link #510
Solace
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Interesting observation. It makes sense, too. The United States has always been a diverse nation, and that diversity has arguably increased at a faster pace in recent years with globalization.
It's not just that. Technology has fundamentally changed society in ways never before seen. The old and the young are often very different groups. This has always been true, but people live longer today than they ever have, so the clash is more prevalent. For example, when my mother was born, television was new and color wasn't even prevalent. Today, screens are bigger and higher resolution than ever, and content is far more diverse than the old antenna ever provided. There's more of an overlap in generations than we've ever seen in history.

There's an exponential increase in the advancement of technology, and we've hit a tipping point where those advancements come in years instead of decades. This is why the notion of the Singularity holds credibility. There's a huge clash of ideas going on right now, essentially a battle between old and new. Economics, politics, religion, you name it, established aspects of society are increasingly unable to keep pace with the speed of change and those who are changing with it. That's the root of anxiety facing people right now. The world is changing, and they feel left behind. People naturally fear change, the unknown, and cling to tradition.

Sadly, it inevitably leads to bringing out the worst in people, often in violent and otherwise destructive ways.
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Old 2013-03-01, 16:26   Link #511
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Many of them are in my age group ... I rather like the moniker for them: "Left Behind" ... Ironic but on target. I was more sympathetic to my peers in the '90s but I am not now. They've had twenty five years to get on the train and there has been no end to attempts to help them adjust. (not that they aren't infecting or undereducating younger age ranges)

My wife and I were talking about a recent trend of people who got anxiety attacks if their cellphone is taken from them (lost or confiscated, whatever). At first it sounded stupid, but the more I thought about it, it wasn't. In the current day, it is roughly akin to being put in black box isolation. You can no longer hear the "whisper of the Borg", you are cut off from social contacts, you don't have your maps, you don't have your information sourcing, etc etc. So no, it isn't necessarily silly. I have people my age who don't understand why a house might need more than one computer and turn their cellphones off unless they're making a call. o.O.

As for social framework issues, again I have no sympathy. The sorts resisting change now are largely the very same people who resisted it in the 60s and 70s.

They never signed up for it and over the last twenty years or so, the US is experiencing a backlash as this faction gets more and more panicked. I got called a long-haired hippy the other day by someone in a grocery store parking lot when I smiled at a barking dog in the car next to me. The man was 15 years my senior - so he would be the exact same age as the adults who called me that in 1975.

To me, racial equality, feminism, choice of fashion, anti-corporatism, choice of who you sleep with, IS conservatism because it implies leaving other people alone and having control over your own destiny. The authoritarian patriarchal bunch (be they white, black, whatever) are the ones lashing out in anger/fear because the trends in demographics aren't on their side.

Last edited by Vexx; 2013-03-01 at 16:50.
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Old 2013-03-01, 16:26   Link #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Because you get more bang of the buck by threatening fire and brimstone than the old peace and love shtiz.
Seriously...

"Hey, let's read the Bible"
"What that book is so old and not cool? Meh, who cares about love and I don't wan to turn the other cheek!"
"But, a lot of cool shit happens in the Bible. There's like wars and massacres, and God doesn't take shit from anyone. Curse him, and he'll send a swarm of locusts after you. And the ending is mindblowing, even if there's a few plot holes and contrivances... and at the very least you won't be quoting it out of context like every asshole in power does. And uhh, there's nudity too."

And sadly, it does seem that violence and explosions are the best way to attract a crowd. That Family Guy parody of Passion of the Christ feels all too real.
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Old 2013-03-01, 16:33   Link #513
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Old 2013-03-01, 16:37   Link #514
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tk;dr is the greatest sin of the modern ages. Religous extremists will use quotes out of context to condemn people, and of course many in our government tl;dr the Constitution.
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Old 2013-03-01, 16:39   Link #515
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Religous extremists will use quotes out of context to condemn people, and of course many in our government tl;dr the Constitution.
Of course, the irony: they condemn themselves in the process.
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Old 2013-03-01, 20:07   Link #516
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Many of them are in my age group ... I rather like the moniker for them: "Left Behind" ... Ironic but on target. I was more sympathetic to my peers in the '90s but I am not now. They've had twenty five years to get on the train and there has been no end to attempts to help them adjust. (not that they aren't infecting or undereducating younger age ranges)

My wife and I were talking about a recent trend of people who got anxiety attacks if their cellphone is taken from them (lost or confiscated, whatever). At first it sounded stupid, but the more I thought about it, it wasn't. In the current day, it is roughly akin to being put in black box isolation. You can no longer hear the "whisper of the Borg", you are cut off from social contacts, you don't have your maps, you don't have your information sourcing, etc etc. So no, it isn't necessarily silly. I have people my age who don't understand why a house might need more than one computer and turn their cellphones off unless they're making a call. o.O.

As for social framework issues, again I have no sympathy. The sorts resisting change now are largely the very same people who resisted it in the 60s and 70s.

They never signed up for it and over the last twenty years or so, the US is experiencing a backlash as this faction gets more and more panicked. I got called a long-haired hippy the other day by someone in a grocery store parking lot when I smiled at a barking dog in the car next to me. The man was 15 years my senior - so he would be the exact same age as the adults who called me that in 1975.

To me, racial equality, feminism, choice of fashion, anti-corporatism, choice of who you sleep with, IS conservatism because it implies leaving other people alone and having control over your own destiny. The authoritarian patriarchal bunch (be they white, black, whatever) are the ones lashing out in anger/fear because the trends in demographics aren't on their side.
I think it is due to the easy availability of contacts and information that makes more people fear face-to-face communcation, which they aren't used to. Our race may have become more technologically advanced, yes, but better at communcation? I think not.
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Old 2013-03-01, 20:12   Link #517
mangamuscle
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Our race may have become more technologically advanced, yes, but better at communcation? I think not.
IMO people do have become better at communication with the internet, I have exchanged mails with people I would never had any communication otherwise, but that does not increases by itself RL social skills, I bet many people that use the internet nowadays are just as awkward as the characters in Boku ha tomodocha ga sukunai.

Last edited by mangamuscle; 2013-03-02 at 10:47. Reason: duh
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Old 2013-03-02, 00:39   Link #518
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Hate is certainly a strong word, and shouldn't be used recklessly.
Yet there is a lot of anti-American sentiment being bandied about here, be it foreign policy, military, current government actions, and how us dumb old Americans think and act.
In reality it's just an opinion brought on by years of personal beliefs or what your elders said while sitting around the supper table.
If we're ever going to get anywhere, we better start thinking for ourselves.
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Last edited by Lost Cause; 2013-03-02 at 09:27.
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Old 2013-03-02, 09:27   Link #519
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
It's not just that. Technology has fundamentally changed society in ways never before seen. The old and the young are often very different groups. This has always been true, but people live longer today than they ever have, so the clash is more prevalent. For example, when my mother was born, television was new and color wasn't even prevalent. Today, screens are bigger and higher resolution than ever, and content is far more diverse than the old antenna ever provided. There's more of an overlap in generations than we've ever seen in history.
Good points. That raises another interesting facet: in person we naturally gravitate to people who match us in some way, and the default for a long time was age. Age is no longer a major distinguishing factor with message forums and social media. Differences still exist with age, but the barriers that kept people segregated by it are being broken down. I remember using chat rooms when I was 13 or 14, conversing with people who were in their 20's and 30's (perhaps older). It's very unlikely that would have happened offline. There's a natural progression and development of view points as a person ages, so this is another source of agitation where differing viewpoints held by different groups are being mixed together directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
To me, racial equality, feminism, choice of fashion, anti-corporatism, choice of who you sleep with, IS conservatism because it implies leaving other people alone and having control over your own destiny. The authoritarian patriarchal bunch (be they white, black, whatever) are the ones lashing out in anger/fear because the trends in demographics aren't on their side.
Thumbs up!

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Yet there is a lot of anti-American sentiment being bandied about here, be it foreign policy, military, current government actions, and how us dumb old Americans think and act.
In reality it's just an opinion brought on by years of personal beliefs or what your elders said whike sitting around the supper table.
I don't see much anti-American sentiment. Nobody has called America evil, nor have any sweeping judgments been made against the nation. Some people dislike what the country is doing and are offering criticism. It doesn't indicate that they're blindly parroting hatred from previous generations, or that they're not thinking for themselves.

This gets back to an issue that was discussed a few pages ago. A lot of us Americans think that we're #1 in the world in just about everything. That pride makes external criticism seem warped. If we are #1 then we are undeserving of any criticism, especially from those who don't live here; any negative sentiments must be blind hatred, jealousy, or trolling. But just as nobody is perfect, there is no perfect nation. Whether we're the closest to perfection or not is a matter of opinion, but we should certainly be able to listen to criticism and consider it honestly, without our pride getting in the way.
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Old 2013-03-02, 11:11   Link #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Good points. That raises another interesting facet: in person we naturally gravitate to people who match us in some way, and the default for a long time was age.
Man is a tribal creature. We stuck to people like us, our tribe, because that helped ensure our survival. It is an evolutionary trait we haven't grown out of yet. This works better in most other countries, because they are generally all of one kind of descent. America has issues, because we have so many different types of people, from all over the world. Despite how we might say we are all Americans, we still inwardly have issues with other races or cultures, mingling with ours.

*That* is the source of racism. I can sometimes feel a discomfort around people who aren't like me, but I recognize where it comes from now, and now it doesn't make me a racist. It means I am suffering from an evolutionary trait that, while it made sense when we were a simple hunter-gatherer species, it doesn't make sense now. Even then, I barely feel it most of the time, but sadly, many are still locked into the "tribal sense" and thus feel compelled to attack people not like themselves; not just race or culture, but class, too.

Quote:
This gets back to an issue that was discussed a few pages ago. A lot of us Americans think that we're #1 in the world in just about everything. That pride makes external criticism seem warped. If we are #1 then we are undeserving of any criticism, especially from those who don't live here; any negative sentiments must be blind hatred, jealousy, or trolling. But just as nobody is perfect, there is no perfect nation. Whether we're the closest to perfection or not is a matter of opinion, but we should certainly be able to listen to criticism and consider it honestly, without our pride getting in the way.
This is probably our biggest problem. Our politicians, in order to get elected, have fallen over themselves telling us what a great people we are, and what great things we can do for the world. And that has ended up blinding a lot of Americans into thinking we can do no wrong. Sure, a politician might screw up here and there, but we're still America, the greatest nation on the face of the planet! Our constitution is perfect and needs no change, and we don't need to do anything differently!

It makes it really damn hard for those Americans like me, who want to correct actual problems that are getting people killed. But we can't, because the problem can't be that our constitution needs changing, or that our way of life is wrong. The problem is just other people. This has the side of effect of allowing us NOT to change, because we don't like change. We generally prefer the status quo... until something happens to us, ie, we love our guns... until we or our kids are gunned down, and then we realize the folly of our earlier position. You simply cannot get someone to understand your point of view, until they've lived it. Just like a rich person will never understand what it is like to be poor and how to address the problem, until they are poor themselves.
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