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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 14 36.84%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 36.84%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 9 23.68%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 2.63%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-02, 10:28   Link #21
GoldenLand
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It would make sense for Yakomaru to ask a false Minoshiro in his possession whether there was anything the humans could use to stop a Fiend.
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Old 2013-03-02, 10:30   Link #22
seiftis
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I dont like the way Kiroumaru grinned here when they arrived at Tokyo... seems suspicious.
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Old 2013-03-02, 11:39   Link #23
Raghar
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Originally Posted by ookamigirl View Post
Kiroumaru is truly a good and loyal one.
You can still see an epic betrayal of Kiroumaru against them.
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Old 2013-03-02, 13:32   Link #24
CJ_Walker
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Suffice to say, if there was one word I never expected to hear in Shin Sekai Yori, it was "Roppongi". For those who don't know, Roppongi is the anus of Tokyo - a sleazy and glitzy spread of expensive and soulless shopping malls and dive bars designed almost entirely to feast on the dollars of foreigners. On any given night it's full of hawkers for sex shops, drunk gaijin and locals who like to take advantage of them. None of that is likely to have any real connection to its use as a locale in SSY, of course, but it's quite surreal to see my worlds colliding in such a comedically absurd way. I was lured to Roppongi once for a 1000 nomihoudai, and I think I prefer the subway tunnels with six inches of bat guano to the actual place. As for the giant blood-sucking slugs, that's pretty much unchanged from reality.
the Roppongi crossing area itself sucks, but I'm guessing you haven't been about a few blocks in the other direction to Roppongi Hills? It's pretty much like the Beverly Hills of Japan. Also there's other nice areas in that vicinity, like azabu, and aoyama which are really classy. ALSO even in that "anus" of an area there are really nice bars hidden out of the way.

You gotta explore more and drop a lot of those misconceptions about the area, there's a lot that you'd miss.
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Old 2013-03-02, 14:12   Link #25
ChronoReverse
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Yakomarou almost certainly is following them to get the weapon.

He KNEW about it. This is how he'll control the children he's kidnapping after he wins the war. He'll just use the weapon to kill them.

Hurry up and realize this Saki so you can just destroy the super anthrax spores.
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Old 2013-03-02, 14:31   Link #26
Trajan
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What a painful episode. Let us count the ways.

First, Saki's mother leaves the plans to defeat the Akki in a letter to her daughter, who as far as she knows might dead. If Saki is dead, no one reads the letter, and show's over folks. Stupid.

Second, Saki's parents don't go to Tokyo themselves, because . . .

Third, no one ever bothered to send an expedition to Tokyo to retrieve the psychobuster before, because . . .

Fourth, Kiroumaru tells them how he would defeat the fiend, namely through the same methods the queerats have just used to kill several other humans, but instead, the humans are like, screw that, we're going to Tokyo to get a superweapon which may or may not exist.

Fourth, use your Cantus to cover up your scent and tracks, noobs. Inui, where are you on this one, buddy. Thought you had "skills".

Fifth, weaponized anthrax exists in aerosol form. It's not a powder.

Sixth, despite being a society with a vastly different concepts of gender, it will still be the girl who freaks out about bugs and poop.

On the plus side, a slow clap for Saki on finally using her brain to do more than direct her Cantus and begin to question how this "akki" was created and what he actually might be.

Last edited by Trajan; 2013-03-02 at 14:41.
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Old 2013-03-02, 14:45   Link #27
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The more I think about it ... I don't know that they need to kill the "fiend" to win (in the long run).

If they all split up and use guerilla tactics (yes not their style perhaps, but everyone has to adapt) and kill all the rats they can when the "fiend" isn't around, then it won't matter whether they kill the "fiend". Sure they'll take losses when they stumble into the "fiend", but the rats seem to be pretty spread out & present a lot of targets.

For example, if the rest of the humans actually knew that the "fiend" was in Tokyo with a handful of rats, they should be able to wipe the rest out. The "fiend" can still only be in one place at one time.

A good commander should be able to take advantage of this & force the rats to move their key piece somewhere predictable & then strike at other targets once they can account for the "fiend". Of course improved communications (which I was really hoping Saki would brainstorm into) would help a ton with this ...
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Old 2013-03-02, 15:03   Link #28
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It didn't cross my mind that Kiroumaru might betray them but now that people said it I can't get the thought out of my mind. I have to admit it is not outside the realms of possibility. On one hand we think Kiroumaru hates Yakomaru but perhaps that was part of their plan all along.

Or maybe Kiroumaru does hate Yakomaru but hates the humans even more.

Still I'd like to believe he is a noble guy who does care about Saki and Satoru.

I am not sure if I entirely understand how an anthrax attack wouldn't activate the death feedback and I always wonder if the novel explained this type of thing better?

My only thought is anthrax is a living organism doing the killing for you (perhaps that is stretching it though).

Edit: I am beginning to think this psychobuster plan will fail or Saki won't go through with it. I just find it odd that 3 episodes left the series will have told us how they will defeat the "fiend" and save the day, no there has to be some type of twist.

We now know that some humans can communicate in the rat language, whose to say Saki & co can't get through to Maria & Mamoru's child after all?
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Old 2013-03-02, 15:22   Link #29
Trajan
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Originally Posted by apotheosis View Post
The more I think about it ... I don't know that they need to kill the "fiend" to win (in the long run).

If they all split up and use guerilla tactics (yes not their style perhaps, but everyone has to adapt) and kill all the rats they can when the "fiend" isn't around, then it won't matter whether they kill the "fiend". Sure they'll take losses when they stumble into the "fiend", but the rats seem to be pretty spread out & present a lot of targets.

For example, if the rest of the humans actually knew that the "fiend" was in Tokyo with a handful of rats, they should be able to wipe the rest out. The "fiend" can still only be in one place at one time.

A good commander should be able to take advantage of this & force the rats to move their key piece somewhere predictable & then strike at other targets once they can account for the "fiend". Of course improved communications (which I was really hoping Saki would brainstorm into) would help a ton with this ...
Well, the interesting thing mentioned by Tomiko is that through the education and hypnosis process, most of the villagers are "sheep": docile and unquestioning. They've essentially been intellectually and creatively lobotomized, so coming up with creative plans to fight back is beyond them. When attacked they simply run around like fools getting slaughtered. In fact, they have to be told to get into their teams of five and merge groups if necessary; it's not something that they spontaneously decide.

This might not be a problem, but for the fact that the self-appointed protectors, like the Ethics Committee and the Wildlife Management force, have proven to be absolutely terrible at their jobs. Tomiko was stunningly incompetent at her job, and she probably only kept the role due to her society's avoidance of conflict (who would challenge her directly?) and lingering Japanese elder-respect. I mean, no one seems to mind that Tomiko's hand-picked successor is a 26 year-old of average Cantu power who has violated the rules of society several times and was ordered to be killed twice!

In the end, if the human society falls, it will be because the initial advantage PK gave its users over regular humans came to be a great disadvantage as society relied on its use far too greatly.
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Old 2013-03-02, 15:32   Link #30
ScudFace
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It's been a running theme throughout the show that Saki places too much trust on the queerrats when she shouldn't have despite the protests of others. Hopefully, helping kiroumaru won't end up back firing this time.
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Old 2013-03-02, 16:43   Link #31
Dawnstorm
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am not sure if I entirely understand how an anthrax attack wouldn't activate the death feedback and I always wonder if the novel explained this type of thing better?

My only thought is anthrax is a living organism doing the killing for you (perhaps that is stretching it though).
They think it might not trigger death feedback, and they're pretty sure it won't trigger soon enough to prevent usage of the "psychobuster". My hunch is that the deciding factor is: death isn't instant. You get infected, and at some point you succumb to the disease.

I'm thinking that death feedback is just an extreme version of your usual kill inhibition. Remember episode 19 where the four people in the boat fried all those bakenezumi with their cantus? The woman was physically sick afterwards. Saki was slightly affected. Satoru and the man were barely affected, if at all. I don't think that's death feedback; I think that's just a natural reaction to having witnessed death. There's individual variation in how you respond to that.

Even without deathfeedback, killing isn't easy. Messier killing methods are harder to pull off. Smash someone's head in with a hammer > running someone through with a sword > Shooting someone > dropping a bomb on a house from a plain. It also depends on the amount of imagination and empathy you have.

I'd think death feedback works like this. Thus killing someone with a delayed method you don't yet sub-consciously associate with killing should be relatively save (not necessarily safe, but safer than killing with cantus, which necessatates imagining the results to even work).

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Still I'd like to believe he is a noble guy who does care about Saki and Satoru.
I don't know. I'd rather not have him play the magical-negro role. That would undermine (though not ruin) what I think is great about the show.

Note that it's possible for Kiroumaru to be on their side without falling into that role (or at the very least serve as a deconstruction of the trope). For example, assuming that the "fiend" can't kill bakenezumi for fear of death feedback, imagine a scene where Kiroumaru, with that battle bloodlust of his, kills the "fiend". He's saving them, but what they see is a bakenezumi slaughtering a scared and helpless human child.

I hope with all my heart that the show is going to undermine Kiroumaru's "nobility". That doesn't necessarily mean betrayal. In fact, unyielding loyalty can be even creepier if played well.
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Old 2013-03-02, 16:47   Link #32
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I really would rather not have Kiroumaru betray Saki. There is already discrimination against him for being a bakenezumi. There's no need for him fall within that prejudice and justify that racism.
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Old 2013-03-02, 17:10   Link #33
Kirarakim
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I don't know. I'd rather not have him play the magical-negro role. That would undermine (though not ruin) what I think is great about the show.
While I understand why you brought that trope up that is a racist trope that doesn't necessarily apply here because we are dealing with character that resemble animals and one that look human.

I think when Saki said she viewed the monster rats as "animals" that is what she meant as "animals" not another race of people.

I think perhaps the author was trying to question our perception of human but I don't think he was comparing the monster rats to oppressed minorities.
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Old 2013-03-02, 17:53   Link #34
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When they first mentioned the name "Psychobuster" I thought Saki was going to obliterate the fiend boarding a giant mecha.

Great episode by the way, lots of info.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:01   Link #35
kuromitsu
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Naturally I get busy as the show enters its last stage...... >_>

Anyway, very nice episode, although for some reason I hoped they would include more of Mizuho's letter in some way. :/ (I mean, Maria's letter got half an episode plus including a musical piece without any narration... by the way, I think this stage of the story is where the ED gets really ridiculous.) Oh well.

Kiroumaru is so cool~ and I have to admit I squealed loudly when I saw the minoshiro library critter, it's so adorable! It's a pity Satoru has to carry it around, it would be so adorable if it would just totter next to them on those tiny legs... aaaah! so cute. Too bad this show is not the kind that is accompanied by plushies, I would totally buy this one.

I have to commend the pacing, they're doing a really great job not making episodes feel rushed (even though they're breezing through the material, though obviously must of what is cut is talking or not plot relevant things). Though I'm a bit worried that with all the running around they're going to do from now on there won't be enough time for the really important talks... I hope they'll manage to do it.

"Psycho buster," though. xD;; It's kind of accurate but still...

I'm not getting into another argument about things that should be obvious if you pay attention or use your head instead of declaring everything as stupid, but just a few notes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
When attacked they simply run around like fools getting slaughtered. In fact, they have to be told to get into their teams of five and merge groups if necessary; it's not something that they spontaneously decide.
If you had paid attention you would've noticed that they were following emergency situation training. Members of the Security Committe were also there to facilitate things. (Also, for that matter, the overwhelming majority of people would run around like fools in real life, too.)

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I mean, no one seems to mind that Tomiko's hand-picked successor is a 26 year-old of average Cantu power who has violated the rules of society several times and was ordered to be killed twice!
For one, they did mind. Two she was ordered to be killed once because her power was late to manifest, that's not exactly a personality issue. Three, she violated the rules because as they were all aware of, she and the rest of Group 1 weren't reared to blindly follow the rules. The only time it ever mattered to them was the one time they actually decided to dispose of her.

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Second, Saki's parents don't go to Tokyo themselves, because . . .
...because they're old and probably wouldn't make it, while Saki and Satoru are strong and healthy young people? Saki's mother was in the second half of her thirties when Saki was born. Saki is 26 now. Do the math. Also, maybe-- just maybe-- they have something else to do, as mayor and head librarian, aside of releasing the cats. Maybe.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-03 at 17:33.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:05   Link #36
Dawnstorm
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I think when Saki said she viewed the monster rats as "animals" that is what she meant as "animals" not another race of people.
I'm not sure why that's important with respect to the trope. To me, it's merely a rationalisation for racism (or speciesism, if you will). What did you make, for example, of Satoru's outburst, last episode (#21), of "Didn't we treat you well?" To me, this shows that Satoru's "not getting it". (But he's starting to get it, and if he ever gets it, he may be in trouble; imagine death feedback triggering on killing a bakenezumi.) They may think of them as animals when it's convenient, but I'm pretty sure no other species has to fill out forms if they want to fight each other. No other species has to send representatives to answer to a committee. They may think of them as animals, but they treat them a lot like colonists treated "savages".

For the record, I do think that biological differences are important in the show. I do not think, though, that the difference matters with respect to the trope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA
I really would rather not have Kiroumaru betray Saki. There is already discrimination against him for being a bakenezumi. There's no need for him fall within that prejudice and justify that racism.
That's sort of the rub. He's in a situation where he's either a "good bakenezumi" or a "bad bakenezumi", but whatever he does, he's bowing to human judgement. That's the problem.

The shoe's on the other foot, too: the bakenezumi can play a game of "good human/bad human". And if the power balance shifts towards them, they're probably going to be no better. (I do note though that even Mr. fanatic rat of episode 21 didn't talk about bakenezumi supremacy; it sounded like "should have been equal" to me; in other words, you had long enough to get it, you didn't get it, you're not going to get it, so we'll take this convenient chance to get rid of you.)

Note that it's not a matter of "treating them well"; it's a matter of setting the standards.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:14   Link #37
Kirarakim
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I'm not sure why that's important with respect to the trope. To me, it's merely a rationalisation for racism (or speciesism, if you will). What did you make, for example, of Satoru's outburst, last episode (#21), of "Didn't we treat you well?" To me, this shows that Satoru's "not getting it". (But he's starting to get it, and if he ever gets it, he may be in trouble; imagine death feedback triggering on killing a bakenezumi.) They may think of them as animals when it's convenient, but I'm pretty sure no other species has to fill out forms if they want to fight each other. No other species has to send representatives to answer to a committee. They may think of them as animals, but they treat them a lot like colonists treated "savages".
To have racism in the series we need an actual race or nationality that is being oppressed.

The reason why things like the magic negro or the noble savage are an issue is because they apply to real people who were misrepresented in the media.

What are the monster rats the equivalent of and how does that apply to Japan (although Japan does have their own oppressed minorities & maybe I am missing something)?

I am not saying the humans have treated the Bakenezumi right but that trope is not being used here because no one is being oppressed here outside of fictional characters.

edit: Okay speciesm is a thing but I think we really need to separate that from racism & I am not really sure it applies to this series either.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:31   Link #38
Dawnstorm
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
To have racism in the series we need an actual race or nationality that is being oppressed.

The reason why things like the magic negro or the noble savage are an issue is because they apply to real people who were misrepresented in the media.

What are the monster rats the equivalent of and how does that apply to Japan (although Japan does have their own oppressed minorities)?

I am not saying the humans have treated the Bakenezumi right but that trope is not being used here because no one is being oppressed here outside the fictional characters.
That's not how I see it at all.

Group A is in a position of power over Group B and judges Group B. Group B threatens group A, but a mamber of Group B chooses to aid Group A instead of Group B, thereby legitimating the power structures in place.

That behavioural pattern is the same whoever the groups are. I don't need to make 1:1 comparisons to real life situations to recognise a narrative pattern. And my reactions to that pattern is pretty much the same, whether it's realistic or SF/F.

[And there are people who would disagree with you that speciesism is not a thing. ~ ETA: I typed my reply before you edited yours. ]

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edit: Okay speciesm is a thing but I think we really need to separate that from racism & I am not really sure it applies to this series either.
ETA: Yes, being precise helps. You may be right and it doesn't apply to the series. We'll see. I'd be disappointed, though.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:37   Link #39
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Dawn Storm let me explain what I mean better. I am not saying the humans are not oppressing, even being racist against the Monster rats if you will.

However I believe those tropes you mentioned apply to real races & groups. It's the narrative itself that is racist not the characters.

I mean the tropes themselves make 1:1 comparisons for a reason.


edit: Perhaps you can see the bakenezumi as a representation of "savages" so thinking about it more maybe you could see the "noble savage" trope in Kiromaru's role. This might be a cliche but it is not racist in the way when the trope is used to represent an actual group of people.
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Old 2013-03-02, 19:02   Link #40
Dawnstorm
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I mean the tropes themselves make 1:1 comparisons for a reason.
I'm really not stuck on that term. Is there a more general one that works better?

Quote:
edit: Perhaps you can see the bakenezumi as a representation of "savages" so thinking about it more maybe you could see the "noble savage" trope in Kiromaru's role. I still don't think this is as bad as if the Bakenezumi represented an actual group of people.
I'm beginning to see the problem with the term. I might be seen to make a comparison between black people and bakenezumi...

"Noble Savage" is a good term, but I'd argue that, even if he should betray the kids, there are ways he can remain that, e.g. if the betrayal serves as a sort of "moral lesson" that they couldn't take from Yakomaru, for example. It's almost, but not quite, what I'm getting at.
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