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Old 2013-03-02, 17:20   Link #541
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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When most of the countries more Right of America are islamic militant nations, you can't honestly say that's not a sign.

When Obama won the 2nd term, Romney supporters were at a loss for words in which nation they want to immigrate to instead. If you are a Christian extremist, America is your only refuge.
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Old 2013-03-02, 17:20   Link #542
Kaijo
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It matters, because there is a sliding scale to everything(what level of government intervention is appropriate?), and some things are binary choices (are you for a death penalty or against it?). You can think of right/left being on those sliding scales. Yes, there are good things to both sides, and also that extremism on either side is bad. But that *doesn't* mean you can't look at the overall situation, and determine that society needs to generally move one direction or the other.

Take health care, for example. The countries with universal government coverage do much, much better than those with simply private health care. Private is on the right. Government is on the left. I think most of us here would agree the "left" version of a lot of european countries works better. THAT is what I mean when I say we need to tack left.

Sliding scale. Where are you? Where is your country? If you are too far left, or too far right, it doesn't matter: you need to tack to the center. And right now, the US is too far right. Trying to say there is nothing like right/left, ultimately reveals only that one lacks an understanding of the philosophies of societies and politics.

I may not know where the center is, but I know how to get there from in the US. Move left. You may want the center, but do you know how to get there? You need a direction. Right and left are merely the words that start you on the path. If you won't move right or left because they are "like, just words, maaan" then you are going nowhere.

Take any issue, and you will find a right/left scale. If right/left bothers you so much, then maybe you'd like north/south. Or maybe east/west. Or perhaps up/down. I don't care. Right/left is just how society at large has chosen to mark those directions. Not using them, just separates you from everyone else and makes your own ideas more confusing. You wanna be less radical and convince people? Then use their language.
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Old 2013-03-02, 17:28   Link #543
kyp275
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What bothers me isn't that there's left and right, but your implication that everything as a whole should move left. As I said before, just because I may agree with you on some things, doesn't mean I have to agree with you on everything else.

I also don't recall when I became a radical, nor do I care about convincing other people, if I did I would've picked a different profession. I reject the notion that I must belong to a camp and follow the preset "directions" created by other people that carries with it a whole hosts of baggage and implications that I want nothing to do with.

I'm pro-gun rights, but also pro-choice; I'm pro-gay marriage, but I'm not anti-religion; on some issues I may be an idealist, on others a realist; I hold a whole bunch of positions across a wide range of issues that would have the hardliners on BOTH side accusing me of being a sheep from the other camp, so what does that make me?

Last edited by kyp275; 2013-03-02 at 17:48.
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Old 2013-03-02, 17:51   Link #544
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
When Obama won the 2nd term, Romney supporters were at a loss for words in which nation they want to immigrate to instead. If you are a Christian extremist, America is your only refuge.
Canada is the usual place that people say they'll move to, whether Republican or Democrat. I heard a few comments about moving to Canada when Obama won, but not many. I think they recognized that Canada is a place that the Democrats would love to emulate.

America may harbor some extremist Christians, but that doesn't mean that all of America is made up of Christian extremists. They're a minority - vocal, but still a minority. That the rest of the world is unlike them is probably an uncomfortable thought: America is the only place that they feel is theirs, and any moves to make it more like the rest of the world are seen as threatening.

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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I'm pro-gun rights, but also pro-choice; I'm pro-gay marriage, but I'm not anti-religion; on some issues I may be an idealist, on others a realist; I hold a whole bunch of positions across a wide range of issues that would have the hardliners on BOTH side accusing me of being a sheep from the other camp, so what does that make me?
Libertarian
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Old 2013-03-02, 17:52   Link #545
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I'm pro-gun rights, but also pro-choice, I'm pro-gay marriage, but I'm not anti-religion, I hold a whole bunch positions across a wide range of issues that would have the hardliners on BOTH side accusing me of being a sheep from the other camp, so what does that make me?
It doesn't make you anything. But a large chuck of your countrymen are batshit insane AND stupid. And because you live in a democracy as much as people like to deny it, your population gets the blame.

I have been told to stop blaming Americans for what the government is doing. But I say that's something I can't do. You live in a democracy, and that means the people takes the blame. I don't care how much money the corporations are spending lobbying, or how you don't like your electoral system. You have a democracy, and it happens the way it does because people who do vote wanted it that way. Those who don't vote at all, and I know there are many of you here, made that choice yourselves.
Quote:
America may harbor some extremist Christians,
I would like to hear some other place where they can harbour outside the good old US of A.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/0...ng-women-vote/
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:01   Link #546
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I don't see much anti-American sentiment. Nobody has called America evil, nor have any sweeping judgments been made against the nation.
I present to you....

Quote:
But a large chuck of your countrymen are batshit insane AND stupid.

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
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Naw, the libertarians would've cast me out for believing that government can, and should have roles to play in certain aspects of society




Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I have been told to stop blaming Americans for what the government is doing. But I say that's something I can't do. You live in a democracy, and that means the people takes the blame. I don't care how much money the corporations are spending lobbying, or how you don't like your electoral system. You have a democracy, and it happens the way it does because people who do vote wanted it that way. Those who don't vote at all, and I know there are many of you here, made that choice yourselves.
So what you're saying is that I CAN blame you for Totori being rated R18+, and the other various Australian shennanigans like censorships and oppression of aboriginals?
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:10   Link #547
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
So what you're saying is that I CAN blame you for Totori being rated R18+, and the other various Australian censorship shennanigans?
Actually, I don't mind. Because that was a price we pay to HAVE an R18+ to begin with. We fought for it and we won. Feel free to "blame" me for that. (Even though I wasn't an activist so the praise is undeserved. I will take it anyway.)

Is "America evil"?
Well, as far as I can tell a large chuck of Americans think non-Americans are evil. The evil "universal health care" for example, which was claiming to be soviet style communism. Which means the entire Europe is now considered communists. And we know in America Communism is a code for Satanism.

There is also the argument that Obama is Kenyan, which makes Kenya evil. And also the claim that Obama is atheist, and atheism is bad. Which means the Prime Minister of Australia is evil. And taxes is evil. And... In short. Everything not American is evil. And since the only thing that truly defeat evil is hellfire, America needs to kill the rest of us for our own good...

Quote:
I present to you....
I call it like it is. Because America doesn't do it anymore. When the GOP stated they are actually against critical thinking, there is no other conclusion one can come up with.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:17   Link #548
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Is "America evil"?
Well, as far as I can tell a large chuck of Americans think non-Americans are evil. The evil "universal health care" for example, which was claiming to be soviet style communism. Which means the entire Europe is now considered communists. And we know in America Communism is a code for Satanism.

There is also the argument that Obama is Kenyan, which makes Kenya evil. And also the claim that Obama is atheist, and atheism is bad. Which means the Prime Minister of Australia is evil. And taxes is evil. And... In short. Everything not American is evil. And since the only thing that truly defeat evil is hellfire, America needs to kill the rest of us for our own good...
Then all I can say to you is that you should probably stop letting your view of Americans be formed by the likes of Fox News or internet talking heads. What you're doing is no different than those that would blame 9/11 on the entirety of the Islamic world, or assume every muslim is a terrorist because a few are.

Quote:
I call it like it is. Because America doesn't do it anymore.
No, you call it like what you "think" it is. Tell me, in which American city have you lived? what kind of of actual interaction with Americans have you actually had to base your opinions on?"
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:20   Link #549
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Then all I can say to you is that you should probably stop letting your view of Americans be formed by the likes of Fox News or internet talking points. What you're doing is no different than those that would blame 9/11 on the entirety of the Islamic world, or assume every muslim is a terrorist because a few are.
Fox News is supporting the 47% of the voting population who vote Romney. I can't say "it's just Fox" when it is nearly half the country of voters.

No, it is true most people don't vote. But they don't count until they do.

Quote:
No, you call it like what you "think" it is. Tell me, in which American city have you lived? what kind of of actual interaction with Americans have you actually had to base your opinions on?"
I only care about the people who have a say in government. So it doesn't matter what the average American is like, when it is what the voters are like that makes a difference.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:26   Link #550
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Fox News is supporting the 47% of the voting population who vote Romney. I can't say "it's just Fox" when it is nearly half the country of voters.

No, it is true most people don't vote. But they don't count until they do.
Since when does voting for a candidate means you agree with everything that candidate, his campaign, the political machines behind him supports? It's oversimplification in the extreme and you know it.

I voted for Obama, does that mean I agree with everything he's for? hell no. There are a whole host of political, economic, and social issues that affect each voter differently, and everyone must weight all the differences and the pros and con before reaching his/her decision. To say that everyone who voted for Romney is automatically a stupid, ignorant racist bigot would itself be ignorant.

Quote:
I only care about the people who have a say in government. So it doesn't matter what the average American is like, when it is what the voters are like that makes a difference.
So not only are you lumping every voters on one side into a single basket, you're also passing judgement on an entire nation of people without knowing or caring about what they're actually like...
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:33   Link #551
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Since when does voting for a candidate means you agree with everything that candidate, his campaign, the political machines behind him supports? It's oversimplification in the extreme and you know it.

I voted for Obama, does that mean I agree with everything he's for? hell no. There are a whole host of political, economic, and social issues that affect each voter differently, and everyone must weight all the differences and the pros and con before reaching his/her decision. To say that everyone who voted for Romney is automatically a stupid, ignorant racist bigot would itself be ignorant.



So not only are you lumping every voters on one side into a single basket, you're also passing judgement on an entire nation of people without knowing or caring about what they're actually like...
I care about the results. What people DO. I don't care how nice individuals might seem when we meet face to face, the country's actions speaks for itself.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:33   Link #552
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Fox News is supporting the 47% of the voting population who vote Romney. I can't say "it's just Fox" when it is nearly half the country of voters.

No, it is true most people don't vote. But they don't count until they do.


I only care about the people who have a say in government. So it doesn't matter what the average American is like, when it is what the voters are like that makes a difference.
I.E "If they don't vote the way I would vote, they voted the wrong way"
Look, we had two choices-- Romney or Obama. That much is irrefutable. Obama won. Your so called "better choice" And yet you still point fingers pretending you know what america and its citizens are like.

Your points aren't even making any sense. You can't expect people to vote for some third party choice who is barely ever presented the ability to campaign on a national level. Not to mention people are likely more concerned voting for the candidate closest to their views, while still having a believable chance of winning.

You have shown me more ignorance in a single one of your posts then I've seen all week.

You accuse Americans of blind hate, yet you define the term.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:39   Link #553
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Lets please calm down everyone. I do not wish to lock the thread, but if tempers do not cool and emotions settle then I will have to lock the thread for a time. Please be civil.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:55   Link #554
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I care about the results. What people DO. I don't care how nice individuals might seem when we meet face to face, the country's actions speaks for itself.
Well, for what it's worth our government's approval ratings are pretty much the lowest they've ever been in history. It isn't like Americans are approving of the government's actions, it's just very difficult for us to get this beast under control. It's going to take some time. Lack of voter participation and interest in researching the issues is a valid criticism, but there are some inherent designs in our system that make it unlikely that even increased participation and interest would have much of an effect.
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Old 2013-03-02, 18:58   Link #555
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
What bothers me isn't that there's left and right, but your implication that everything as a whole should move left. As I said before, just because I may agree with you on some things, doesn't mean I have to agree with you on everything else.

I also don't recall when I became a radical, nor do I care about convincing other people, if I did I would've picked a different profession. I reject the notion that I must belong to a camp and follow the preset "directions" created by other people that carries with it a whole hosts of baggage and implications that I want nothing to do with.

I'm pro-gun rights, but also pro-choice; I'm pro-gay marriage, but I'm not anti-religion; on some issues I may be an idealist, on others a realist; I hold a whole bunch of positions across a wide range of issues that would have the hardliners on BOTH side accusing me of being a sheep from the other camp, so what does that make me?
You acknowledge it yourself: the sliding scale. Where you have an issue, is when I said overall, that we need to tack left. Perhaps you feel we should tack right on some issues, but understand that I am comparing the US to other countries, where I see better health, less death via guns, more free market freedoms, more government regulation that leads to a healthier free market, etc. In nearly all those cases, Europe does it better, by almost every metric. To me, it is folly to say "We should copy some of the things they do well, but not copy the other things they do well."

By the way, you are part of a growing minority of Republicans/conservatives, who are beginning to accept gay marriage, and that are pro-choice. But also still hold major Republican values of, say, smaller government. Call these people socially liberal, fiscally/governmentally conservative. To them, neither R's nor D's are a good fit. From their perspective, they might see themselves in the middle. But to the rest of the world, they are still right of center.

And I call the rest of the world center (well, mainly European countries), because they seem to have found the nice blend. Take Germany for example: strong labor unions and regulations, universal health care, and yet a strong, healthy free market running briskly on capitalism. That blend of socialism/capitalism is what I call the center.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I.E "If they don't vote the way I would vote, they voted the wrong way"
Look, we had two choices-- Romney or Obama. That much is irrefutable..
Actually, we had Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, too. And depending on where you were in the US, you could vote for Virgil Goode, too. There was one other main 3rd party candidate whose name escapes me at the moment.... And for the record, I voted for Gary Johnson. Honestly speaking, I call people who voted Romney or Obama the "wrong way." People complain about no good third party candidates, but then don't vote for them. That's why I was doing my damnedest during the election to inform people of third party candidates. I don't like Virgil Goode, but I'd rather people vote for him than Obama or Romney.
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Old 2013-03-02, 19:09   Link #556
Ledgem
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Actually, we had Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, too. And depending on where you were in the US, you could vote for Virgil Goode, too. There was one other main 3rd party candidate whose name escapes me at the moment.... And for the record, I voted for Gary Johnson. Honestly speaking, I call people who voted Romney or Obama the "wrong way." People complain about no good third party candidates, but then don't vote for them. That's why I was doing my damnedest during the election to inform people of third party candidates. I don't like Virgil Goode, but I'd rather people vote for him than Obama or Romney.
You can write in for any candidate that you want. Our system has a design problem, though, in that any candidate who doesn't get even a slim minority is immediately out. What this means is that people can vote for whoever they want, but people who form a coalition and bond together to form even that slim majority will win each and every time. Of course the end game of such a system is a two-party system, and with money not being heavily restricted or scrutinized in political campaigns it makes sense that newcomers to the field will have a hard time when facing the established, resource-rich parties. You can correctly say that a person is throwing their vote away by not voting for the person that they really want, but it could also correctly be said that they're throwing their vote away by voting for someone who has no chance of gaining even that slim majority. These days it seems as if people are voting for one candidate as much as they are voting against the other.

From what I've heard of it, I like Australia's system. Instead of voting for one person per position you create a rank list. If your first choice doesn't get enough votes, they are knocked out of the running and then your second choice comes into play. Vallen can probably tell us more about it. Basically, it means that you can take the chance to vote for whoever you really want to, and you don't have to worry about "throwing your vote away."

Case in point, I would have loved to vote for Ron Paul or John Huntsman. Neither made it onto the actual ballot. I considered writing in for one of them, but I really didn't want Romney to win, and I thought Obama was OK. Being write-in candidates, I knew that neither Paul nor Huntsman had a chance of getting a majority against either of the establishment candidates. As such, I voted Obama. If I were allowed to create a rank list I would have voted as I pleased, knowing that even if my third-choice candidate were the contender, my choice would still be clear (and would still be against Romney).

I suspect more people would vote as they wished if we had such a system.
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Old 2013-03-02, 19:12   Link #557
Demi.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post



Actually, we had Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, too. And depending on where you were in the US, you could vote for Virgil Goode, too. There was one other main 3rd party candidate whose name escapes me at the moment.... And for the record, I voted for Gary Johnson. Honestly speaking, I call people who voted Romney or Obama the "wrong way." People complain about no good third party candidates, but then don't vote for them. That's why I was doing my damnedest during the election to inform people of third party candidates. I don't like Virgil Goode, but I'd rather people vote for him than Obama or Romney.
I know we had other candidates to vote for, but we only had two with any prayer of winning. I don't see a reason to vote third party if there isn't any hope for them. I'd rather vote for someone who may win that I somewhat agree with, over voting someone I agree with more, yet won't win. I'd certainly vote libertarian if a time presents itself and it's not merely throwing my vote to the wind.
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Old 2013-03-02, 19:20   Link #558
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
You have shown me more ignorance in a single one of your posts then I've seen all week.

You accuse Americans of blind hate, yet you define the term.
That's okay. I am just a non-American.

You can call me ignorant. You can call me any number of things. It still won't change anything though. My country would still blindly follow America's lead on foreign policy. We would still be "allies".
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Old 2013-03-02, 19:35   Link #559
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's okay. I am just a non-American.

You can call me ignorant. You can call me any number of things. It still won't change anything though. My country would still blindly follow America's lead on foreign policy. We would still be "allies".
Why does what your country does matter so much? You put way too much stock in nationality over individualism, in my view. YOU can feel differently than the country you live in. You are an individual. Just like everyone else here. The majority's voice does not drown out your own, even if that's the way a democracy works. In the end it's a system designed by humans and is very, very far from infallible. I don't care if your country is allies with mine. I care what I think and what you think as individual people.

Plus, you should read up about the problems with a two-party system. We don't even have majority rule in the first place.
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Old 2013-03-02, 19:37   Link #560
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Why does what your country does matter so much? You put way too much stock in nationality over individualism, in my view. YOU can feel differently than the country you live in. You are an individual. Just like everyone else here. The majority's voice does not drown out your own, even if that's the way a democracy works. In the end it's a system designed by humans and is very, very far from infallible. I don't care if your country is allies with mine. I care what I think and what you think as individual people.
Didn't you know? You are nothing but a meaningless pebble in the grand scheme of things where only the collectivist entities matter. And remember, there are only two types of entities. Ones that are right, and ones that are wrong.

Such rhetoric would be perfect for Fox News, wouldn't it?
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