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Old 2013-03-03, 04:10   Link #81
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Sheba's argument has got nothing to do with taste
So he's right then?

Seriously, c'mon, VRO? Mecha? I may not be as smart/intelligent/good debater/politician as you guys in explaining things to the atomic level and quoting/doing references from where ever you find it but, in my "elementary mind".... yeah.. it's hard to say it does...
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Old 2013-03-03, 04:19   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
So he's right then?

Seriously, c'mon, VRO? Mecha?
Where did Sheba say it was a mecha?

He said the story is that of a classic robot story, that's not the same thing a saying it's a mecha anime.
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Old 2013-03-03, 04:21   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Where did Sheba say it was a mecha?

He said the story is that of a classic robot story, that's not the same thing a saying it's a mecha anime.
Quote:
....Super Robot show where the mechas are replaced by moe little girls.....
Damn.. this confused me. Oh, well. I'm really am just a elementary after all...
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Old 2013-03-03, 08:56   Link #84
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If the most popular works in the mecha genre are outselling the most popular works of most other genres, the mecha genre doesn't seem to be dying. Another way of putting it is that most of the 100,000+ volume sellers out there are mecha works, and that most of those were sold in the last five years. Sure, this might be partially driven by non-otaku, but so what?
I'm not claiming it's dying, that's the OP's stance. What I do see is a relative drop in the number of new mecha titles.

The problem with those 100,000 plus sellers is that the bulk of the buyers are not anime fans nor mecha fans. They are Gundam or Evangelion fans. They have no interest in anything else. New mecha titles by and large are commercial failures unless the mecha element is watered down and tied to more popular formats.

It's like commenting on the state of sci-fi in the US based on the sale of Star Wars and Star Trek Blu-ray releases.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Unless you take an extremely purist view on what makes a mecha anime, there have been plenty of works where the mecha have primarily acted as decoration. If you do decide to exclude them, then you might as well drop Code Geass as well.
Geass was the last successful new mecha franchise. If we even have to discuss whether is recognizable as a mecha title and the key to it's success was mixing it up with other show types only reinforces my point.
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Old 2013-03-03, 09:20   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post

It's sad to think that so many people actually start with Frontier.
Kind of hard to start with a different macros serie if the only recent one was frontier and i wasn't even interested in watching the previous one before nor i am interested in it now after seeing frontier.


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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
The very title of the franchise, Macross, refers to a giant transforming robot/ship that the characters spend the majority of their screentime in.
How is that remotely different if you replaced the Macross itself with a random space colony, aside from a few battles that it uses the giant macross it doesn't change the story at all.

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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
You didn't watch Evangelion for the Evas, but I don't think you can deny that they played an important role in the story, with their relationship with humans and angels, and how Shinji's intense emotions inside Eva caused actual physical consequences.
IMO i always viewed the mecha's and angels themselves as something symbolic for human conflict
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Old 2013-03-03, 09:39   Link #86
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The main source of anime is manga and light novels, there's hardly any mecha titles in either of them (FMP, Linebarrel come to mind) and if they make up, lets just say 80% of what we have as anime, that doesn't leave much room for mecha.

Secondly it should be pretty obvious that mecha series are more high budget than a typical series. Not to mention that mechanical animators are a dying breed, hence the increase in CGI, even in series where they tried not to like in Unicorn. If you only have like (lets make up numbers) 200 animators who can do mecha at an acceptable level compared to say 10000 who can do typical shit... and there's only a certain amount of CGI studios around... guess what happens?

Thirdly mecha series still continue to sell well, 4 of the top 10 selling anime titles from 2000 onwards are mecha, 5 of the Top 11. Unicorn is probably the best selling anime OVA series of all time, also probably the closest thing we'll get to the sales of NGE TV.

Movie charts based on Movies from TV series... Top 5, 3 are mecha (and before anyone goes with the Frontier movies only sold well because of the bundled 30 minute game, look up DYRL sales for me first)

(2009) 211,367 Macross F: Itsuwari no Utahime (Regular: 41,434)
(2011) 182,337 Macross F: Sayonara no Tsubasa (Regular: 45,647)
(2005) 171,919 Full Metal Alchemist: Conqueror of Shamballa
(2011) 163,547 K-on! The Movie
(2010) 155,867 Kidou Senshi Gundam 00L A wakening of the Trailblazer

Add the Eva movies and it's a wrap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Let's be honest, AGE was a flop, at least commercially. If anything, AGE's problems speaks to how traditional mecha really is in decline.
What does AGE being a flop have anything to do with such a bullshit argument as "No gundam is airing right now?". Besides it's not like Unicorn is easily outselling every Gundam OVA series that predated it or anything right now, or that it's the best selling Gundam series ever.

Eva 4 is due next year? So is the last Unicorn title and than Sunrise transition into Origin, Kawamori has a new project lined up (not Macross), Code Geass Akito is still airing, Yamoto (if you want to count that) is about to take over one of the best time slots in anime, we have 3 mecha titles airing this upcoming season. Probably get a IS sequel sometime next year too since the book issues have been dealt with and it sold like crazy.

Yet mecha is dead?

If genres were boxers and we measured them up pound for pound.... (balance the weights/releases) Mecha would slaughter everything else.
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:29   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
The main source of anime is manga and light novels, there's hardly any mecha titles in either of them (FMP, Linebarrel come to mind) and if they make up, lets just say 80% of what we have as anime, that doesn't leave much room for mecha.
Let there be mecha based Visual Novels!

Awww heck, take the harem genre... and make it space based. OH wait, that's ToLoveRu... (sorta)...
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:36   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Let there be mecha based Visual Novels!
There are plenty of those, but these rarely gets animated (from my mind the only ones that i can think of now are demonbane and Muv Luv alternative)
I don't mind seeing more Mecha based VN's getting an anime adaptation
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:39   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Any anime veteran who have been watching since Captain Harlock and.or Space Battleship Yamato CAN tell you that VRO is basically a Super Robot show where the mechas are replaced by moe little girls. The docking is straight out of Gao Gai Gar,
The docking is just magical girl transformation fanservice combined with a DBZ fusion move.


Quote:
the whole "Only ONE scientist have researched an ultimate weapon to fight the alien invaders" is straight out of a 1970s super robot show,
"One scientist to save them all" has been done in numerous narratives and video games. Are we now going to say that VRO is based on MegaMan? Or how about Steins;Gate? Is VRO a homage to Steins;Gate?


Quote:
and even the very optimistic state of mind is closer to a 1970-1980 super robot show (before the Eva era).
That optimistic state of mind is also in plenty of magical girl shows. It's also very reflective of what we saw in Nanoha.

Docking, "One scientist to save them all", and "optimistic state of mind" does not make a show a mecha. You need actual piloted robotic armors for a show to be a mecha, imo.

VRO is more magical girl than it is mecha, imo. I completely agree with syn there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
What does AGE being a flop have anything to do with such a bullshit argument as "No gundam is airing right now?". Besides it's not like Unicorn is easily outselling every Gundam OVA series that predated it or anything right now, or that it's the best selling Gundam series ever.

Eva 4 is due next year?
If the only way traditional mecha can do well is through being a 2-episodes-a-year OVA or a Movie, that's rather limiting long-term, imo.
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:44   Link #90
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Muv Luv alternative
Only watching the series... I was disappointed in that one due to one aspect:

Spoiler:


Sure. It gave plenty of time to focus on the babes of that series.... but still. And don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it. Nevertheless, there's a war for the survival of humanity happening...

Of all the series that executed that type of story the best... Gunbuster.
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:48   Link #91
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Kind of hard to start with a different macros serie if the only recent one was frontier and i wasn't even interested in watching the previous one before nor i am interested in it now after seeing frontier.
That’s the problem. Compared to the original SDF Macross, Macross Frontier is too cheesy and some of the dialogues are too melodramatic or over the top to be taken seriously. Kinda like comparing the original Star Wars Trilogy to Star Wars Prequels.
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:57   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
The main source of anime is manga and light novels, there's hardly any mecha titles in either of them (FMP, Linebarrel come to mind) and if they make up, lets just say 80% of what we have as anime, that doesn't leave much room for mecha.
Okay, so there are hardly any new mecha stories being created in the main source material for anime.

Quote:
Secondly it should be pretty obvious that mecha series are more high budget than a typical series. Not to mention that mechanical animators are a dying breed, hence the increase in CGI, even in series where they tried not to like in Unicorn. If you only have like (lets make up numbers) 200 animators who can do mecha at an acceptable level compared to say 10000 who can do typical shit... and there's only a certain amount of CGI studios around... guess what happens?
So we're dependent on anime originals made by a handful of specialized studios and funded by one of the two big toy companies, and this is not a worrisome development for new future content in both variation and number?

Quote:
Thirdly mecha series still continue to sell well, 4 of the top 10 selling anime titles from 2000 onwards are mecha, 5 of the Top 11. Unicorn is probably the best selling anime OVA series of all time, also probably the closest thing we'll get to the sales of NGE TV.
If we exclude 30 year old plus franchises that already had a huge long time fan-base before the decade even started? Then there are 2 in the top 100 left. Code Geass, a high budget mixed genre title with limited mecha involvement and Infinite Stratos, a harem show with girls in mechanical bikini's...

Quote:
Eva 4 is due next year? So is the last Unicorn title and than Sunrise transition into Origin, Kawamori has a new project lined up (not Macross), Code Geass Akito is still airing, Yamoto (if you want to count that) is about to take over one of the best time slots in anime, we have 3 mecha titles airing this upcoming season. Probably get a IS sequel sometime next year too since the book issues have been dealt with and it sold like crazy.
We had about 5 new mecha TV-series in 2012 on a total of roughly 180 TV-series. That's less than 3 %.
Quote:
If genres were boxers and we measured them up pound for pound.... (balance the weights/releases) Mecha would slaughter everything else.
You mean cultural icons like Gundam, Yamato and Evangelion would sell far more DVD/Blu-rays than any late night anime? Yes, how odd. So does Ghibli. Doesn't say much about the state of animated mecha shows.
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Old 2013-03-03, 11:19   Link #93
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Oh Westlo, you just can't resist stirring up any place that's a guarantee to react to you.

Since this is absurd even by your standards, I'll bite for once.

Firsty, if I read correctly what R3 said, he was talking about traditional mecha, not mecha as a whole. And seriously, using Gundam AGE an excuse to vent about how Unicorn beats almost any title in sales? I think most people have enough of a brain to know about Unicorn and its success in appealing to the more old-school Gundam fans.

Mecha isn't dead but it has morphed substantially with the times. Still, it should be noted that those higher end titles are mainly featuring titles that have had long-standing value/fanbases/merchandise.

On that sales point, you mentioned Gundam, Macross, Yamato and The War as well as Infinite Stratos. But funnily enough...if you look at those sales figures from 2000 onwards beyond that top 11 or so (let's extend it to around 15 to include IS)....there aren't that many more titles that are mech. Code Geass, a bit more Gundam, Tiger and Bunny, TTGL, the Yamato remake.

But let's be fair and remove the established, continually marketed for decades franchises. We're left with Code Geass, Infinite Stratos, Tiger and Bunny and Guren Lagann. To be even fairer, IS isn't exactly a mech show and more of a service/harem show. Tiger and Bunny is more of a parody of superheroes than a straight mecha show. Guren Lagann is a continuation of the FLCL experiments which was already a parody of mecha + other stuff and made to make The Pillows sound even more awesome. Code Geass kind of is but is genre fusion in droves - the mechs are only one slice of the cake.

So....as far as I see it, R3 has a point. Outside of the necromanacy marketing freight train, there's barely a handful of successful shows containing mechs and those doing well weren't strictly mech. Genre fusion has become a necessity of shows involving mechs to be successful. And even then, they're still not blowing the charts to pieces. It's the well-established or well-marketed titles that are (face it, Code Geass had plenty of help in getting itself out there.)

But more to R3's point, a significant shift from traditionalist mecha to modern mecha is the director's intentions and the symbolism. If you read enough about what the directors in the 60s, 70s, 80s and even 90s in some way, were intending to do and what the focus/point of the show was. In the days of Astro Boy, Mazinger and Gundam, mechs were vessels of spirituality helping the protagonist achieving their goal, fulfilling the guardian role for the usual mech cliche of their usually dead relative that left them the mech to save the world, that the pursuit of their goal was to find balance and redeem the soul of the enemy rather than wipe them out or scream justice, which is more typical of Western superheroes. Mechs were essentially Japan's version of superheroes but mixed in their spiritual beliefs.

Is that the point of modern mech shows? Hell no! The point of them is to allow as much merchandise via figues and model kits to come out and sell like hotcakes (merch really is the profit section), to keep the brand known and set a precident to allow other future financially successful ventures in similar veins. There's a reason Japan still hasn't got over The War and perhaps never will - it's the benchmark for success despite its numerous flaws and general insanity. The characters and mechs are marketable, the title is controversial and easy to keep current/known and the possibility of remakes was always there. And in an age where anime is no longer able to experiment and train but more oriented towards likely financial success since the budget allowances of the 70s and 80s just don't exist now, sales will drive what is made.

At least be an amusing troll if you're going to stir up trouble, Westlo. Or provide a more substantial argument than relying on the franchise titles. With that logic, manga is just fine at present because One Piece is setting records all over the place - yet its sales for the industry in total are only 1/4 of what they were in 1995. We know you love your sales, Westlo. We really do. And we know you love to go after Triple_R whenever you're bored. But seriously, at least try. We know you're capable of far better.
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Old 2013-03-03, 11:44   Link #94
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Kind of hard to start with a different macros serie if the only recent one was frontier and i wasn't even interested in watching the previous one before nor i am interested in it now after seeing frontier.
So it's somehow "hard" to begin with the first title in a series of sequels? I can understand starting the Yamato or Gundam franchise with Yamato 2199 or Gundam 00 first, because the former is a remake and the latter is an unrelated alternative universe to the Universal Century. Macross Frontier is a legitimate sequel.

If all that modern anime buyers are looking for in mecha are... whatever the hell Frontier has, which I know includes really flashy modern animation and a big budget, maybe the people claiming that mecha is dying have a point.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
How is that remotely different if you replaced the Macross itself with a random space colony, aside from a few battles that it uses the giant macross it doesn't change the story at all.
That was a mistake on my part. I was referring to the part of your post where you claimed to not remember the names of the mecha, and I should have realized that the titular Macross probably doesn't have any role at all in Frontier anyway.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
IMO i always viewed the mecha's and angels themselves as something symbolic for human conflict
How symbolic you interpret them to be doesn't change the fact that the Evas played an important role in the plot. Their interactions with the human characters through LCL and their humanoid shape are extremely important. Because of this, you can't just replace them with tanks, planes, or swords like you can in many mecha anime.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
There are plenty of those, but these rarely gets animated (from my mind the only ones that i can think of now are demonbane and Muv Luv alternative)
I don't mind seeing more Mecha based VN's getting an anime adaptation
Muv-Luv Alternative wasn't even adapted to anime form. All that was adapted was a piece of trash light novel, Total Eclipse, that is a spin-off to the VN and revolves around a completely different setting and set of characters.
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Old 2013-03-03, 13:25   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
How symbolic you interpret them to be doesn't change the fact that the Evas played an important role in the plot. Their interactions with the human characters through LCL and their humanoid shape are extremely important. Because of this, you can't just replace them with tanks, planes, or swords like you can in many mecha anime.
You could arguably do this, actually, but it would cease being a mecha anime at that point. It would now become a tank anime, a plane anime, a military technology series or what ever. And that's the point. Is a series considered a driving anime like Initial D or (arguably) You're Under Arrest just because there are cars in the background, or the characters are seen riding in a car or driving at one point? No, of course not! It's all about the series focus, about how central the objects are to the story line. If you take that out and change it into something else then perhaps you could still have a similar story, but the focus would be different.

You could replace the mecha in Code Geass with tanks, androids, or fairies, and the series genre would not shift. Replace the Evangelions with cars, replace the LFO's in Eureka Seven with submarines, and the entire genre changes. That is how you know what a true mecha series is.
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Old 2013-03-03, 13:52   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
So it's somehow "hard" to begin with the first title in a series of sequels? I can understand starting the Yamato or Gundam franchise with Yamato 2199 or Gundam 00 first, because the former is a remake and the latter is an unrelated alternative universe to the Universal Century. Macross Frontier is a legitimate sequel.
And as far as i have seen, i haven't been extremely dumbfounded by the plot by missing something from the previous series. Aside from protoculture.


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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
That was a mistake on my part. I was referring to the part of your post where you claimed to not remember the names of the mecha, and I should have realized that the titular Macross probably doesn't have any role at all in Frontier anyway.
I can't remember any of the mechas by name in macross frontier and i probably only remembered the macross only because it has that in it's title. Unlike code geass in which i can exactly recall the Gurren, Lancelot , Gawain, Shinkiro.
And after looking through a wiki it's not even hard why i didn't remember them because most of them hardly distuinguished themselves from eachother both in looks and name.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
How symbolic you interpret them to be doesn't change the fact that the Evas played an important role in the plot. Their interactions with the human characters through LCL and their humanoid shape are extremely important. Because of this, you can't just replace them with tanks, planes, or swords like you can in many mecha anime.
How does that hold up against macross frontier again? I don't think the plot would have changed if people were using regular jets than mecha's with jet modes.
The fight with the eva's and angels were hardly the centre of focus of everything. In fact i felt both the angels and EVA's was an excuse to force interactions between the characters. Seeing that the last few angels have been entirely skipped


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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Muv-Luv Alternative wasn't even adapted to anime form. All that was adapted was a piece of trash light novel, Total Eclipse, that is a spin-off to the VN and revolves around a completely different setting and set of characters.
edit: total eclipse was a VN from 2007 despite that it was a spin off to Muv Luv alternative, eventhough i can't say anything about the the anime compared to that VN because i didn't bother watching it nor read it seeing that it's not my preferred genre
later edit: according to vndb it was a trial in 2007
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Old 2013-03-03, 14:14   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The docking is just magical girl transformation fanservice combined with a DBZ fusion move.
Which is also present in Gao Gai Gar.

Quote:


"One scientist to save them all" has been done in numerous narratives and video games. Are we now going to say that VRO is based on MegaMan? Or how about Steins;Gate? Is VRO a homage to Steins;Gate?
My god, just read the general plotline of Mazinger Z or Getter Robo, better yet watch those series. It have the very trope of "The threat of Dinosaurs/Machine people/Beings from another dimension is looming over Japan/the world, army is totally useless. But worry not! A lone scientist have developed the ultimate machine in his basement!" in there.

I fucking grew up watching those series. They are old as fuck!

Quote:
That optimistic state of mind is also in plenty of magical girl shows. It's also very reflective of what we saw in Nanoha.
Well, replace it with hotblooded, also very hammy. And guess what? Nanoha also have taken a lot from Super Robots shows especially Super Robot War (hint: the writer is a HUGE fanboy of it), which is why some of the people who are in for the magical girls elements have grown tired of the direction the franchise have taken.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:33   Link #98
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Hmm, the writer of VRO also did Mai-HiME, and seems to frequently input elements of mecha, magical girl, and fanservice in. And then Nanoha itself is rife with Super Robot references too, as well it is in concept too, so all of this is really no coincidence, I'd say.
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Old 2013-03-04, 15:45   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hmm, the writer of VRO also did Mai-HiME, and seems to frequently input elements of mecha, magical girl, and fanservice in. And then Nanoha itself is rife with Super Robot references too, as well it is in concept too, so all of this is really no coincidence, I'd say.
And Force is truly Mecha.
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Old 2013-03-04, 15:58   Link #100
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One thing I've notice about Space Battleship Yamato 2199 is that it is different from the original. I know of a bunch of people that are avoiding it because it is a remake and they've seen the original already (or its "too old"). The new Yamato is not the same as the old one. The plot is more compact with less 70's ish long establishing shots or narration. With all those things removed, they've added more character depth, more subplots that change the nature of the story, especially from the Gamilas side of things. And they've taken the time to put in things in specific places so that you can't know for sure what will happen this time around.

In addition to that, the ship are much higher detailed than in the 70s and 80s, plus there are more characters filling in useful roles. I am actually amazed at how much story they are managing to tell in these episodes. They are functionally farther along in the story than the 1974 story, and have told much more story than the original could in that some period of time.
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