AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Psycho-Pass

View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 18 Rating
Perfect 10 23 35.38%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 23.08%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 20.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 9.23%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 4.62%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 4.62%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.54%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-01, 17:25   Link #161
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Still there seems to be misconception. A lot of people in this discussion are acting like the dominator is on explode mode for every random Joe, when it really isn't. When people get stressed out, a drone will come tell them they're being stressed out and may want to see a psychiatrist. Unless they're avoiding the psycho-pass scanners, but why would you do that if you don't have anything to hide?

If you're prone to committing some crime, you'll be captured, not exploded. You'll probably receive treatment, and maybe there is a prospect of recovery. The explode setting is reserved for dangerous people.
Losing years of my life to unnecessary therapy - with all the delightful aftereffects it would have on my career or social life - sounds so attractive.

Quote:
Corrupt system overrides notwithstanding of course, but that's not what this is about.
It kinda is. The fact is, no one on the outside has any reason to trust the system. I mean, if I go to a civilized country and obey its laws (which is largely a matter of common sense), I can be reasonably confident of not getting jailed.

In PP's Japan, though... Even if I don't want to murder anybody, can I trust the machine will see that? So, whether I suspect actual corruption or not, the result's the same: I can't trust it's going to be fair to my non-murderous self.

Quote:
Is it that strange that I feel like people have it backwards? I mean, having a high CC doesn't make you prone to commit crimes. It's because you're prone to committing crimes that you have a high CC.
I'd say it goes both ways. Despair's criminogenic, and having a bad CC's a very bad situation.

Quote:
If you're not into brutally murdering people, you will be fine.
I'm not that confident, considering who we've seen had a high CC.

Quote:
Just so you know, Kagari seems like a bit of a rebel to me. His CC was probably justified.
They got him when he was five. You don't think his upbringing had anything to do with his personality? (Which was actually kinder and better adjusted than it had any right to be, all things considered.)

Quote:
We also know what happened to Ko, so his CC seems to make sense as well.
Yes, getting upset about the horrific murder of friends is punishable with a life sentence. That's exactly the kind of place where I want to go on vacation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Most tourists won't be as medicated.
And won't want to be drugged up to the gills.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-01, 17:40   Link #162
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
All of this is assuming that everywhere outside of Japan is better off. We have absolutely no clue what the outside world is like. There has to be a reason why Japan insists on being self-sufficient and isolated.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-01, 17:41   Link #163
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
And here's another thing. The biggest deterrence against allowing tourism isn't tourists themselves deciding they'd rather not visit a country where they might walk off the plane and get themselves tazed and drugged.

No. The biggest danger, is that after they taze and drug some tourist, the guys family back home try to turn it into an international incident. And if the country that decides to turn it into an international incident happens to be a country with force projection and a tendency towards military adventures and peace keeping?


...said nation probably wouldn't start a war over something like this. But Sybil Japan would end up on a shit list, and warrant extra scrutiny from the intelligence community. And some trigger happy meat heads will be laughing in their office, talking about how awesome it'd be to whoop Japans ass somehow.


What happens when this intel agency realizes just HOW fragile internal security is in Japan? What happens if they run some war-games, and discover that even by Conservative projects, even a very small band of terrorists/commandos could have good odds to overthrow this government?



If Sybil has survived this long, it's probably because they're a more well behaved North Korea on the world stage, intentionally minimizing conflict with other states, making everybody focus on more pressing matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
All of this is assuming that everywhere outside of Japan is better off. We have absolutely no clue what the outside world is like.
Spoiler for Episode 19 spoilers:
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-01, 17:49   Link #164
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
You know, you do seem kind of hung up on this notion that innocent people "might" get judged. We haven't even seen it happen yet.


Ok wait, you're probably going to bring up that woman from the first episode right? The one that was gonna set the neighborhood on fire? The one whose CC went down after she dropped the lighter? The one who was shown to be on her way to recovery?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Spoiler for Episode 19 spoilers:
Spoiler for same:
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-01, 18:01   Link #165
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
You know, you do seem kind of hung up on this notion that innocent people "might" get judged. We haven't even seen it happen yet.
And THAT'S the problem Dengar. What is an innocent person?


Under the Sybil system, an innocent person is someone whose psychopass is under 100. It doesn't matter if their psychopass got pushed over 100 cause they were kidnapped and raped. It doesn't matter that it jumped over 300 because they believed the police were going to kill them in cold blood. All that matters is the number. That's what defines their innocence. Society in Psycho-Pass accepts this, because this is what they've been raised to accept as being normal.


But would other countries accept the authority of Sybil to treat their citizens this way? Do nations that have judiciaries with their own definition of what innocent accept Sybils preemptive judgement?



Spoiler for episode 19 spoilers:
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-01, 18:08   Link #166
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Under the Sybil system, an innocent person is someone whose psychopass is under 100. It doesn't matter if their psychopass got pushed over 100 cause they were kidnapped and raped. It doesn't matter that it jumped over 300 because they believed the police were going to kill them in cold blood. All that matters is the number. That's what defines their innocence. Society in Psycho-Pass accepts this, because this is what they've been raised to accept as being normal.
Boy A kills boy B because boy B's mental torture pushed boy A over the edge. If there was a way to prevent this from happening by isolating boy A before it happens and maybe treating him, then that would have been a victory.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 06:43   Link #167
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Boy A kills boy B because boy B's mental torture pushed boy A over the edge. If there was a way to prevent this from happening by isolating boy A before it happens and maybe treating him, then that would have been a victory.
What does this have to do with anything I just said?


What you're saying has no bearing on what I'm claiming. This hypothetical isn't going to make foreign people coming to visit Psycho-Pass Japan willing to tolerate the random chance of getting tazed and drugged off the wall. And it's not going to deal with the can of worms of embassies demanding release of their arrested citizens.


Dengar. Maybe YOU don't personally have a problem with this setup, but you're not exactly thinking about it if you can't imagine how ALLOT of people wouldn't have problems with it. The fact that the above justification works for some people (you, and the Sybil system), does not automatically confer acceptance across the world.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2013-03-02 at 07:06.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 09:04   Link #168
orion
Waiting for more taiyuki!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
What does this have to do with anything I just said?


What you're saying has no bearing on what I'm claiming. This hypothetical isn't going to make foreign people coming to visit Psycho-Pass Japan willing to tolerate the random chance of getting tazed and drugged off the wall. And it's not going to deal with the can of worms of embassies demanding release of their arrested citizens.


Dengar. Maybe YOU don't personally have a problem with this setup, but you're not exactly thinking about it if you can't imagine how ALLOT of people wouldn't have problems with it. The fact that the above justification works for some people (you, and the Sybil system), does not automatically confer acceptance across the world.
It can be easily fixed. Tourist coming into Japan gets a scan before leaving the home country. If scan is under 100, proceed with travel.

The scan factors become a part of the travel physical exam just like what people have to go thru to make sure their vaccinations are up to date and whether or not they need to take prophylactic antibiotics with them.

It requires that Japan shares their tech with the other country. If there is a significant increase in income due to it being a dangerous assignment, people would tolerate the scan. Think of it like being stationed in a US Embassy in places like Afghanistan.
__________________
orion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 09:38   Link #169
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
What does this have to do with anything I just said?
Well, from my example, boy A, who will be doing the murdering, should be left alone, according to you, because he is "innocent", the logical conclusion is that boy B is just a sacrifice to be made for your "freedom".


EDIT: Er, this might be a little off track. I'm sorry. The point was, that if you're not a criminal, or mentally ill, or not recently traumatized by another criminal, you are safe. I think you and some other people are being rather paranoid about how the system works. And there's no way your hue gets red just because you're nervous. Remember, the hue of that guy in the factory was yellow-green, and he was murdering people.

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-03-02 at 10:03.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 10:57   Link #170
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
EDIT: Er, this might be a little off track. I'm sorry. The point was, that if you're not a criminal, or mentally ill, or not recently traumatized by another criminal, you are safe. I think you and some other people are being rather paranoid about how the system works. And there's no way your hue gets red just because you're nervous. Remember, the hue of that guy in the factory was yellow-green, and he was murdering people.
No, you are simply not getting how the system works. You can be perfectly sane and yet be labeled a latent criminal. Look at Yayoi, Masaoka, or even Gino, who is on the verge of becoming a latent criminal. None of them have done anything wrong.

The pyscho-pass reading is about much more than mental health (that's only the hue) or tendency to commit crimes. Sybil judges people according to their own criteria of what a good citizen is (i.e, an obedient sheep). Anybody who doesn't fit is a latent criminal to them. Simply questioning or doubting the system can be enough to get you locked up. Thoughtcrimes very much exist under Sybil, and there is no way that is acceptable.

I can't say I understand why you are so hung up on defending Sybil after the recent revelations. It's clear Japan has now turned into a totalitarian state, and I have a hard time fathoming how anybody could see it as a good thing. Sybil is little more than a smokescreen preventing people from seeing they have been robbed of their intellectual freedom.
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 16:22   Link #171
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
It requires that Japan shares their tech with the other country.
No can do at that point. Because the whole point of the Sybil system is that the brains are secret.

And that's ignoring the potential danger in allowing contact between citizens and the outside world, which episode 19 suggests Sybil takes very seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
EDIT: Er, this might be a little off track. I'm sorry. The point was, that if you're not a criminal, or mentally ill, or not recently traumatized by another criminal, you are safe.
Yayoi wasn't a criminal. She wasn't mentally ill. She hadn't recently been traumatized by seeing violence. And if she didn't happen to possess the intelligence and mindset to be an enforcer, there's a distinct possibility she'd have spent the rest of her life in a padded cell room. A hypothetical tourist dose not have ANY reliable way of determining if they'd be latent criminals according to a psycho-pass scan, until they got a psycho-pass scan. Knowing that you aren't a criminal, not thinking you're insane, and knowing you haven't been exposed to violence are not reliable ways to determine if submitting yourself to a psycho-pass scan in Sybil Japan is safe or not.


The problem with your argument is that you keep insisting that subjective self assessment is a reliable way to preemptively determine how a "machine" will evaluate you as being a threat. When you consider the possible consequences of making an "inaccurate" self-assessment, voluntarily boarding a plane to vacation in Psycho-Pass Japan is rather reckless behavior.

...Frankly I'd venture it's the exact kinda reckless behavior that might get you flagged as a latent criminal by Sybil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I think you and some other people are being rather paranoid about how the system works. And there's no way your hue gets red just because you're nervous. Remember, the hue of that guy in the factory was yellow-green, and he was murdering people.
Wasn't that the entire point of episode 1? How in a matter of hours, a perfectly ordinary citizen morphed into a latent criminal warranting termination because of extreme stress?

More to the point. The fact that criminals have red hue's isn't necessarily a good argument that people with certain red hues are going to become violent criminals. What seems to have set Yayoi off as being a latent criminal was starting to like the music from a non approved band...and even after her imprisonment, she wasn't willing to join those people in a revolution against the state. Crime coefficient readings are often very accurate, but they're hardly totally reliable in the way you're implying.


And...this is all irrelevant. It doesn't matter is Sybil is 100% trustworthy or not. What matters is whether or not people from other countries would trust it.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 22:04   Link #172
orion
Waiting for more taiyuki!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
No can do at that point. Because the whole point of the Sybil system is that the brains are secret.
The only thing that has to be shared is the scanner itself. Everything else is via wifi or the internet. Remote access to Sybil for scanning. Sybil renders verdict. Person either safe for travel/entry or not. Those not safe are held at Customs and sent back to their country of origin.

You don't have to let the other country know how you're doing it. Japan can call it a national security secret and call it a day.
__________________
orion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-02, 22:22   Link #173
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Being safe one day doesn't mean you'll be safe the next.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-03, 01:21   Link #174
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
The only thing that has to be shared is the scanner itself. Everything else is via wifi or the internet.
Wouldn't it be dangerous to have the Sybil system hooked up to the internet or wi-fi so that it could be accessed outside Japan? From the perspective of hacking and so forth. Then again, Sybil in Japan doesn't seem to get hacked much.
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-03, 04:41   Link #175
felix
sleepyhead
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
Doesn't Makishima still have the cell phone with recording?
__________________
felix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-03, 07:33   Link #176
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Yayoi wasn't a criminal. She wasn't mentally ill. She hadn't recently been traumatized by seeing violence. And if she didn't happen to possess the intelligence and mindset to be an enforcer, there's a distinct possibility she'd have spent the rest of her life in a padded cell room.
Well, the series didn't really go out of its way to explain exactly why unsanctioned music exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The problem with your argument is that you keep insisting that subjective self assessment is a reliable way to preemptively determine how a "machine" will evaluate you as being a threat. When you consider the possible consequences of making an "inaccurate" self-assessment, voluntarily boarding a plane to vacation in Psycho-Pass Japan is rather reckless behavior.
Oh, no no no, I'm quite confident that I WILL be admitted to some facility the moment I would set foot in Psycho-Pass Japan. I'm talking about normal people though, not about myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Wasn't that the entire point of episode 1? How in a matter of hours, a perfectly ordinary citizen morphed into a latent criminal warranting termination because of extreme stress?
The rape victim was more than just 'a little anxious' though. And she actually did go back on the road to improvement once she was apprehended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
More to the point. The fact that criminals have red hue's isn't necessarily a good argument that people with certain red hues are going to become violent criminals. What seems to have set Yayoi off as being a latent criminal was starting to like the music from a non approved band...and even after her imprisonment, she wasn't willing to join those people in a revolution against the state. Crime coefficient readings are often very accurate, but they're hardly totally reliable in the way you're implying.
As I said, the story didn't really do a good job of explaining what happened to Yayoi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
And...this is all irrelevant. It doesn't matter is Sybil is 100% trustworthy or not. What matters is whether or not people from other countries would trust it.
Hm... I see your point here. I was just set off by the fact that you (or someone else I'm not sure anymore) said people wouldn't go because it was 100% certain that they were going to be asploded, which isn't the case. Kill mode really IS only reserved for the dangerous. At worst they'd be admitted to an institution for the rest of their lives. Whether THAT is enough to deter people from going is a whole different matter, of course.

Spoiler:
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-03, 23:13   Link #177
orion
Waiting for more taiyuki!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Wouldn't it be dangerous to have the Sybil system hooked up to the internet or wi-fi so that it could be accessed outside Japan? From the perspective of hacking and so forth. Then again, Sybil in Japan doesn't seem to get hacked much.
It's all about how secure you make your system. If they've gotten this far, they can prob create a "safe" way of accessing Sybil from another country for scanning purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Spoiler:
Well, if what's being kept out are people who can't produce anything meaningful and are just going to be reliant on Japan for care, then they need to stay on their side of the border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Being safe one day doesn't mean you'll be safe the next.
High risk jobs will have higher salaries. Some people will take risks for the income. Besides, they can minimize the risks by doing the screening beforehand, high level psych training of people going over for business and doing a lot of business meetings via Skype etc. Also, recalling those sent to Japan if counseling for their rating does not improve their rating.
__________________

Last edited by orion; 2013-03-03 at 23:24.
orion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 01:29   Link #178
Archon_Wing
Sisyphean Crusader
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Making people too mad to respond
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Oohh, what a twweest.

I'd expect Kougami to be most likely to go rogue, but the manner in which it was done felt more heartbreaking than anticipated, especially with Akane's earlier save. And the chief is getting more ominous as we go on.

But hey, when the law won't protect people, is it up to us?
__________________
God damn, there's so much bad fanservice out there. Touch me and I'll beat the crap out of you!
You are about to move into areas of the anime industry with wonders you cannot possibly imagine. And terrors to freeze your soul.

Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.