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Old 2013-03-04, 14:17   Link #21
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Basically how genetically different you are typically lines up with what "race or ethnicity" you think you are. (eg. I think I am of Chinese Han descent, Mongoloid, I have a particular tendency to turn red when I imbibe alcohol and I'm more likely to get certain diseases and cancers and less likely to get others.. and ho! It's relatively accurate!)
There's nothing wrong with said analysis. Except some will use that to "prove" that being of a certain race makes one more likely to commit crime when an individual is typically more complex to this.

Quote:
Here's another thought -- when we think of "Race" in human terms and "Breeds" for dogs, what's the difference? Well here's an amusing comment from a science forum I sometimes follow:
Because breeds were us designing desirable outcomes for our domesticated animals and plants.

But yes, the whole thing is arbitrary. In order to separate ourselves from everything else, that is what humanity must do-- make exceptions for itself.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:42   Link #22
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achillobator View Post
To clarify, I don't mean to accuse anyone in this community of racism or any other kind of malice, and I understand that many, probably most, anime fans get into the genre for purely inoffensive reasons. It's just that my paranoid mind, badly scarred by a personal history of debating with white supremacists and other racists elsewhere on the Internet, can't help but make connections to larger racial issues.
To point out this is not a Caucasian website. We have people from every ethnicity on this board and we have people from around the world.

And also since you brought up the "hotness of Asian women" I also want to point out that we have men and women here.

I realize racism exists but I don't think you are going to find that on your typical anime board. I would not be heavily involved in a fandom that I felt was racist against anyone.

Are there some anime fans unreasonably obsessed with Japan who think Japan is some type of paradise, well yes. But sometimes it is hard to understand the grass always seems greener on the other side. I don't think this is a reflection of anime fandom as a whole though.

As for not liking anime well that is your prerogative. Perhaps you just have not seen any titles that appeal to you or perhaps it just isn't your thing. As long as you are not rude about it I don't think you have to justify your feelings.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:47   Link #23
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No one denies that people from different parts of the world look different or have different genetic affinities. The way I see it, the real fundamental problem with the traditional concept of race has nothing to do with whether differences exist and everything to do with how we demarcate and categorize these races. In simpler language, where does one race end and the other begin, and who belongs to which race? Also, how many races exist, and what constitutes a race to begin with?

Take African people for example. We colloquially sort them into one racial group, but as mentioned earlier they are not homogeneous. Let me demonstrate a few examples of Africa's various phenotypes:


Southern African


Central African


Central African again


West African


West African again


Northeast African

Now are all these women the same race, or should we sort them into different races based on variations in facial features and skin tones? You see the problem now?
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:49   Link #24
willx
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Originally Posted by Achillobator View Post
Now are all these women the same race, or should we sort them into different races based on variations in facial features and skin tones? You see the problem now?
More categories!

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Old 2013-03-04, 14:57   Link #25
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
More categories!

Believe me, I've seen people on other message boards create whole lists of "sub-races" for Africans alone (e.g. Congoid, Capoid, Nilotid, Paleo-Negrid, Sudanid, etc.), although they tend to have worse taste when selecting representative specimes for each sub-race.
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Old 2013-03-04, 14:59   Link #26
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I'm Eurasian (half Chinese/half European American), but since all my peers were white I got the constant idea that I was more Asian than otherwise. But when I studied abroad, I realized that I was ultimately far more "American" than I had imagined, and now that I interact with far more Chinese and assorted East Asians, not only do I feel distinctly Western, but that is what I will be seen as by the Asians even after they know my background. There have been people I know who have shitty English but still insist on speaking it to me even after I've made it clear that I can understand them perfectly in Mandarin. It's because to them an American has to be spoken to in English, and I am an American in their eyes. I've gotten used to it by now but it's still a bother.

The thing that's weird though is that some Chinese I've met seem to treat me totally differently than before once they figure out I can understand their language. It's like "oh you can speak Chinese awesome I can talk to you normally now". Also, I get the feeling that some or a lot of the Chinese feelings of cultural superiority only make "sense" if it's done in the Chinese language.

Anyhow, yeah I do get the impression that the average white person at least in America (and in Europe too) has more respect for East Asian race and culture than for the browner, southern peoples. Mostly it's because of which representatives of the culture they meet or hear about. When you are raeding articles about Japanese companies developing robots or earthquake-proof buildings, or how China's urban population is skyrocketing, it's easy to have more respect for them than the guys in Afghanistan who are shooting at our troops or the HIV-stricken nations of central and southern Africa. Domestically we see Asians do exceptionally well in school and they are overrepresented in higher education, whereas blacks seem to live in the poorer parts of town and the Mexicans are the guys who do all the work that nobody else is willing to do. So it's totally feasible for those who are less concerned with issues of race or correctness to get a higher opinion of Asians.
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Old 2013-03-04, 16:03   Link #27
mican
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I enjoy some aspects of Japanese culture, such as their respect for the elderly, extensive use of trains and railways, and appreciation for cute things. And of course, I enjoy lots of anime and Japanese games, although they don't reflect Japanese culture that well.

At the same time, I find many parts of Japanese culture absolutely disgusting. Their work culture is horrible and oppressive. Many salarymen never get to spend quality time with their family because they work several hours overtime and are obligated to attend after-work drinking parties with coworkers. The education system is inefficient and the teachers discourage discussion and student-to-teacher interaction as they rant on and on in their one-sided lectures. And I'm generally ticked off by the whole stupid humble and self-depreciating "polite" facade Japanese people like to put up in order to be accepted by others: for instance they always try to "decline" a gift from someone that they actually want, hoping for the other person to insist they accept it, instead of just accepting it and saying "thank you." In fact, I tend to avoid Japanese people I see in real life, because their general behavior tends to make me irrationally angry.
hahaha, this perfectly depicts my own impressions and self of how I view Japan. True true.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
No one denies that people from different parts of the world look different or have different genetic affinities. The way I see it, the real fundamental problem with the traditional concept of race has nothing to do with whether differences exist and everything to do with how we demarcate and categorize these races. In simpler language, where does one race end and the other begin, and who belongs to which race? Also, how many races exist, and what constitutes a race to begin with?

Take African people for example. We colloquially sort them into one racial group, but as mentioned earlier they are not homogeneous. Let me demonstrate a few examples of Africa's various phenotypes:
Correct.The way I see it is that it stems from the innate social tendencies of societies as a whole ( aka Humans. ). Lets first analyze some behavioral patterns of a normal person that interfere with the ability of one to properly analyze/act upon a notion without bias.

1. Compliance : According/Yielding oneself to rules or standards relative to the individuals impressions. EX: A boy feels he will get his ass spanked if he disobeys his mother who is demanding him to take out the trash .

2. Conformity: Tendency of an individual to shape/mold their standards,ideas, and beliefs according to how they view the world and how that perspective corresponds to their nature.
EX: A timid child who is weak in spirit wants to fit in with other people. He feels that in order to do so, he needs to change or at least act like others do.

3. Actor-Observer Bias: Attribution of our own actions to external factors, while attributing the actions of others to internal factors. EX: http://psychology.about.com/od/ainde...r-observer.htm

4. Dunning-Kruger Effect : The cognitive inability of an unskilled individual to recognize their own mistake. Generally mistaking their incompetence as competence higher than others. Simpler meaning : They suffer from illusory superiority.

5. Collective impression: The tendency of a person to feel greater "credibility" towards a certain idea from experience to somehow seem "correct" or right. EX: A person is unsure about a statistical fact in class. The teacher does a poll about what is the correct answer. More people answer yes about a certain answer. So the person feels that the most popular answer is correct. The meaning of "collective impression" extends to greater aspects, but that's left to the reader to decide.

How do these meanings apply to racial division? Well people within our society have given themselves to instinct rather than logic. I honestly feel as if these same people who have manifested themselves through cultural/social groups are judging and condemning others through a prejudicial bias. They act on "impressions" rather than the truth of matters. When you look at all different kinds of ethnic or social groups throughout the world, you can see that these people look at others with a clear selective standards. Inclining themselves towards their native groups of "comfort". It's not simply race that the masses adhere to judge. In all aspects of life, you see people who act upon their impressions to satisfy themselves. Whether its gossip to sate their vanity, giving an obligated charity, or forced ideals ( aka middle east and their religious prosecution ).
If humans took the first step to humble themselves just enough to listen properly to what other people feel, we would be a great leap closer to cooperative peace. I'm not religious but this bible quote is applicable to the masses. Proverbs 12:15, which states: "The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice. I haven't bothered to go in depth about human nature as a lecture is boring however...

Well this is only an opinion from me. Take it as you will.

-----------------------------------------------

A personal story of me. I don't state this with arrogance in mind, but I'm handsome. But... my inner personality at a younger age was timid. To the extend it could possibly referred to as a social phobia. I was a VERY shy person. Now imagine a mystery guy who rarely talks, has a positively impressionable build, has a deep voice, and seems serious all of the time (wearing glasses also ).An Ikemen in American society. Basically rumors started spreading based on the impressions of the masses. That I was some badass ninja, extremely intelligent, and a master martial artist. Because of this, I never truly got anyone to understand me, leaving me severely depressed. Soon when i opened up as I grew up, people began to say "oh, your a normal person" and left me alone. Now that I think about it, aren't people naturally inclined towards the "different" or "abnormal" when it piques their interest? Especially when they themselves refuse to act how they truly feel because of their yearn to act within the clutches of conformity.

A quote from Self-Reliance by Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"A man should learn to detect and watch that gleam of light which flashes across his mind from within, more than the lustre of the firmament of bards and sages. Yet he dismisses without notice his thought, because it is his. In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts: they come back to us with a certain alienated majesty. Great works of art have no more affecting lesson for us than this. They teach us to abide by our spontaneous impression with good-humored inflexibility then most when the whole cry of voices is on the other side. Else, to-morrow a stranger will say with masterly good sense precisely what we have thought and felt all the time, and we shall be forced to take with shame our own opinion from another. "
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Old 2013-03-04, 16:04   Link #28
DorkingtonPugsly
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As a half Japanese half Irish, who moved to the U.S. as a child and have been living here for a while, I don't see the supremacy favor towards Asians (japanese or whomever). I see them being criticized and not really cared about (at least in the 3 schools I've attended thus far). I think like every other culture, people find things they like about it or find interesting, like the food and some of the entertainment. And like others have said before, most of the anime enthusiasm here seems to be with young people and their flare for shounen stuff. So I don't think I see much (or any) favor towards the Japanese, or any regards to them as the most intelligent/best race outside the west.

I think it's only because over there, the media/products and what not are plausible and satisfying to people of the 21st century living in an upscale 1st world country. Media that can be enjoyed and digested through our computers, tvs, and smartphones.

I have to say though, as a huge fan of music, and the (idm-hate the godawful term) subgenre of electronic music, with all the crazy beats and rhythms, I do have a pretty big interest in African music, rhythm, and culture in that area. You find a ton of awesome rhythms, instruments, composition techniques, etc in african music/dance. I also think African art's cool too so you know...

And yeah, just don't get caught up in arguments with immature wacks over the internet. They're not worth your time.
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Old 2013-03-04, 16:31   Link #29
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achillobator View Post
Hello AnimeSuki,


Unfortunately I have a pretty ambivalent (at best) sentiment towards anime. I haven't sampled a large and representative sample of it, but what I have seen so far doesn't impress me very much. The animation seems choppy, the characters seem to switch between drawing styles the moment they experience certain emotions, and the plots weird me out. The only Japanese animation that I can recall liking was Princess Mononoke, because of its tribal-people-and-animals vibe, but even then I found myself liking it less the second time I viewed it. I know on an intellectual level that I can't write off an entire tradition of animation based on a small sample size, but my first impressions have definitely not been favorable.

That said, what bothers me even more about the whole anime/manga subculture in Western youth culture is that I see it as symptomatic of a larger Western, or at least American, tendency to single out Northeast Asians as the "model minority". If American kids ever show any interest in cultures outside of Europe, the vast majority of them pick the Asians, especially the Japanese. We idealize Asians as this wise, studious, and beautiful race of people who are culturally superior to other non-whites, most of all Africans. Even hardcore white nationalists and "race realists" (i.e. the likes of J. Phillipe Rushton and Arthur Jensen) may put Asians near the top of their racial hierarchies just below Europeans, although of course Africans lie at the very bottom.

Mind you, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone individually showing special interest in any Asian cultures, finding Asian women especially attractive, or whatever. I myself feel a certain fascination with African cultures and a physical attraction towards African women (I am Anglo-American if you must know). Actually, that has something to do with my distaste for the American idealization of Asians. Picking Asians as the exotic culture to study has gone hand in hand with the devaluation of Africans. We wouldn't call Asians a "model minority" if we couldn't favorably compare their economic progress to that of African and Afro-Diaspora people. The implicit message is that if people of color like Asians can prosper in today's world, African people have nothing holding them back but their own "inferior" culture or genetics. Our current Asiaphilia phase is on the other side of the same coin as Afrophobia.

I realize a lot of the above rant doesn't touch on anime specifically, but the topics I raise do lurk in the back of my mind whenever I think about anything to do with modern Japanese culture in general, and I needed to vent the whole subject out somewhere.
As a Chinese, I can say we endure A LOT more pain compare to African Americans in this country. Yes, there is anime that interest Americans, but that is a lot rarer compare to people who interest in Rap/Cool Culture.

Asian girl/boy bands are no where near as mainstream compare to the coolness of gangster rap.

Seriously, think of the LAST TIME you saw a U.S Movie with Black people in it, now think the last time you saw a movie with a ASIAN MALE lead(not female as-white-guy's girlfriend).

I am absolutely astounded to think White folks idealize Asians. Sure, there are some who are anime fans, but overall I get is fear (for "taking our job), lack of interest (I cannot be attracted to asians), or education (If you don't have all As, you are not Asian)

Being black in this country has better culture, better support by the government (an Black person can have score 350 less to the average asian male on the SAT to get into a school), better EVERYTHING.

Thanks.

Edit: also, Anime is a sub-culture, and not a very large one at that. Compare that to say...Hollywood. And in Hollywood's eyes, an Asian male is non-existent. A black person bring big bucks. And why do they do? Because being African is a lot more mainstream than being asian.

Last edited by ArchmageXin; 2013-03-04 at 16:45.
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Old 2013-03-04, 16:54   Link #30
Fran
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i'm not sure if this thread is about anime or races stuffs anymore...lol.

from my experience from the U.S. Army, everyone in my unit was making fun of
my accent, calling me name because i'm like the only Vietnamese (asian) around.
i often receive the nickname "TINY" because i'm not big and strong as them. i know
they're just messing around, but it does hurts my feeling a bit.

everyone else that wasn't asian wherever didnt get that dumb treatment like i did.
but anyways, black people are getting a lot of attention in the U.S. and i have no
problem with that at all. if anything, i have lots of respect and look at them as role
model because most of them in sport are VERY powerful people. making me go
"wish i have that kind of strength."
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Old 2013-03-04, 17:27   Link #31
Haiprbim
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Princess Mononoke is an Animated Film/Movie created by Studio Ghibli (watched all of Ghibli myself).
Although the animations are around the same, the main point of watching an Anime is usually a totally different experience than watching an Anime Film/Movie.

First off, I would need to know what kind of genres you like, to give you examples of Animes for you to decide whether to watch them or not.
Possibilities: Romance, comedy, action, drama, mecha, harem, supernatural, sci-fi, slice of life, and so on.

I hope I can help out as much as I can.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of Anime, but it depends on person and his/her interests.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:38   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xefi View Post
i'm not sure if this thread is about anime or races stuffs anymore...lol.
It's about both, although the main theme is actually racism. There is probably some long-dormant thread about that topic buried somewhere in the General Chat sub-forum, but I think this thread can potentially stand on its own.

The title can possibly be reworded to bring greater clarity and focus to the discussion. For example: "Have Asians and their cultures been over-idealised in anime (and manga)?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I personally don't even like to think in terms of race. I find the entire notion antiquated. Genetically speaking, Africa has the most diversity on the planet. All humans are descended from Africans. Africa is home to a huge swath of different cultures that have little in common. Were it not for the Bantu migrations about 1000 years ago, the languages would be even more diverse. Race is a convenient term for simplifying things and has been important historically, but I think we need to start shifting our focus more towards ethnicity if we want to discuss groups of people.
I don't think you'll ever be able to get rid of the individual need to identify with a larger group. It is a human tendency, and humans are supposed to be social animals who naturally seek bonds with others of their kind.

The key lies in drawing a line between pride in one's heritage and ethnic/cultural chauvinism, which, if left unchecked, leads to outright bigotry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
What I find is that the more threatened and isolated an identity group feels, the more strident their claims to uniqueness or "supremacy" becomes. It's a pattern that repeats itself across the world.
I read this... and immediately think of today's version of US Republicans.
It certainly appears that the Republicans have made themselves effectively unelectable by pandering to the shrinking white Christian vote. And it's fairly clear, to me at least, that the insecurity arising from the massive demographic changes in the United States is a major contributor to this trend. There is probably a fear that traditional American "identity" has been undermined, hence the backlash against what used to be tiny minority groups.

The same pressures are being felt in my own country right now. Over here, we are also seeing an increasing backlash against recent immigrants who are seen to be "stealing" our jobs, our homes or even our husbands and wives! Many Singaporeans who feel this way deny that they are xenophobic. They say they are only concerned about preserving the Singapore identity. But what they don't realise is that by thinking this way, they have already begun the slippery slide towards bigotry and xenophobia.

People don't become "bigots" overnight, after all.

If we insist on seeing things as a case of "Us" versus "Them", then what chance is there of new immigrants ever feeling welcome enough to want to integrate into their new home?
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:55   Link #33
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I don't think you'll ever be able to get rid of the individual need to identify with a larger group. It is a human tendency, and humans are supposed to be social animals who naturally seek bonds with others of their kind.

The key lies in drawing a line between pride in one's heritage and ethnic/cultural chauvinism, which, if left unchecked, leads to outright bigotry.
That's fine and I wouldn't like a world where we don't celebrate the differences between human groups. It's one of the things that fascinates me the most about our species and I spend a lot of time thinking about it. I just think you learn a lot more about a person by their ethnic background than by their 'race.' By 'race' I'm just white, ethnically I'm Irish. You learn a lot more about my ancestry and the history of my bloodline from my ethnic background than from my race.

Of course, there is a shared 'European' heritage that is reflected in the western tradition relating to Cro-Magnons, Indo-European migrations, the Roman empire, Christianity, etc... and I don't mean to downplay that. I still think those connections exist, but I far prefer thinking of people in terms of ethnicity rather than watering down the very unique identity of different ethnic groups by putting my focus more on race.

Tangentially, I do think there is a more scientific approach to race relating to shared genetic characteristics, but I think the "color" based approach to race is patently fictional, unprovable, and stupid. By this viewpoint, the peoples of Africa, Papua New Guinea, the Andaman Islands, and Australian Aborigines are all members of the same race... which is an absolutely indefensible position.

Also, from my perspective, I do have lots of fascination with my heritage... but I am also fascinated with pretty much every group out there. The differences between ethnicities, their different cultures and histories, intrigues me to no end. I don't think there needs to be any 'superiority' element to it (though I'll admit I indulge in thinking about powerful Gaelic warriors on horseback when I'm trying to motivate myself to lift heavy in the gym... history nerd for life ).
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Old 2013-03-04, 20:08   Link #34
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I apologize in advance for this but I call BS on this thread, you have almost zero interest in anime, your whole purpose in creating this thread is a "why do you like Asian culture more than African culture" wine.
If you want to create a thread about African culture that's fine but be honest about it.
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Old 2013-03-04, 21:35   Link #35
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by jdennis007 View Post
I apologize in advance for this but I call BS on this thread, you have almost zero interest in anime, your whole purpose in creating this thread is a "why do you like Asian culture more than African culture" wine.
If you want to create a thread about African culture that's fine but be honest about it.
I think I am going to follow you on that. I didn't realize it at first, but his ideas does seem to centralize on the idea of liking Asian culture = disliking African culture.

Is kind of foolish, really. We can all like both, but coming to an anime forum saying "I don't like anime, but why don't you guys like African tribal art" is kind of silly, or down right trollish.
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Old 2013-03-04, 21:50   Link #36
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^ yeah, i guess anime just isnt his cup of tea. i really wish he listed the name of these shows that
he thought were choppy. maybe he was watching some REALLY bad series...who knows.
Quote:
Unfortunately I have a pretty ambivalent (at best) sentiment towards anime. I haven't sampled a large and representative sample of it, but what I have seen so far doesn't impress me very much. The animation seems choppy, the characters seem to switch between drawing styles the moment they experience certain emotions, and the plots weird me out.
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Old 2013-03-04, 21:56   Link #37
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Since this thread started I thought "The OP do not likes anime/manga/japanese culture (nor is interested in suggestions that might change his mind) and has a specific fetish with african women". I mean, come on, I can understand the part about having a fetish (all the posters that know mine are still trying to forget :3 but why go to a forum where you have no interest in whatsoever? It is a waste of time and energy if you do not enjoy the topic covered at large in the message board.

He will be gone before the bubbles of my inexistant beer disappear.
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Old 2013-03-04, 22:16   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achillobator View Post

Central African again


West African
I like them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achillobator View Post
Now are all these women the same race, or should we sort them into different races based on variations in facial features and skin tones? You see the problem now?
Quite glass clear.
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Old 2013-03-04, 23:03   Link #39
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Since this thread started I thought "The OP do not likes anime/manga/japanese culture (nor is interested in suggestions that might change his mind) and has a specific fetish with african women". I mean, come on, I can understand the part about having a fetish (all the posters that know mine are still trying to forget :3 but why go to a forum where you have no interest in whatsoever? It is a waste of time and energy if you do not enjoy the topic covered at large in the message board.

He will be gone before the bubbles of my inexistant beer disappear.
Sometimes people, who may not have an interest in something, are curious about those who do. I'd be lying if I said I don't see the obvious tones in his opening post, but he is far from the trolls I've had to put down over the years who get their jollies by pissing everyone off.

That said, Asian culture, like many others, is an import/export thing. Unfortunately this has not been true of Africa, but that's due to a huge myriad of reasons that aren't all the result of racism. Especially from an American standpoint, there are big differences in black american culture versus black world cultures. Ditto for blacks in England, which, while I have never been there, are often portrayed in their media quite differently than American blacks. How realistic that portrayal is, I don't know, but then again, I've seen some pretty hilarious and incredibly offensive portrayals of blacks in Japanese culture. Sometimes I wonder how much of it is meant to be offensive though. Or funny.

But you can make this argument for a lot of cultures. The lack of knowledge and the overabundance of stereotypes regarding American understanding of Spanish/Hispanic cultures is staggering. And just from my years of being on many sites with international communities, it's become very easy to spot those who don't really understand American culture at all, beyond our media.

But at least most people are willing to learn. I suppose that's a small hope for humanity.
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Old 2013-03-04, 23:11   Link #40
Kudryavka
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@Achillo

I won't deny that there are some people who think Africans are inferior and what poppycock. But I hesitate to agree with you that Asians are seen as a superior race.

Yes some American youth likes anime, but just think about how many more people like African American culture? I understand your points but I think you should look at this from a different angle to understand why your opinion cherry picks examples.
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