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Old 2013-03-02, 12:42   Link #81
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post
I for one think Ero-Sennin makes a good point, many times i have thought there was a lack of sex education for young ninja.Some families seem to be fine but the orphans are never giving "the talk".Naruto didn't recognize a pregnant woman, Sasuke's lack of interest in a girl friend,these are signs of ignorance about sex. Jiraiya wasn't that much of a pervert, just a frustrated man that needed to make babies.
This lack of sexual pursuit for greater fighting power is a problem,funny as it may sound. Not to hard to believe though. Radical Muslims in this world suffer from strict celibacy, making them violently lash out against over sexed westerners.This of course is probably not a topic meant to be part of Kishimotos story,however make love not war is a solution that has been presented before in other cases.
I was just joking about these things, obviously Kishimoto is avoiding this stuff for different reasons, this manga is some light entertainment so there's no need to have realism. Although the manga has also deeper themes, like friendship, world peace, recently Sasuke's questions about what is a village and a clan, etc., so we are often tempted to take it more seriously than we should

The society of Konoha is very similar to the modern japanese/western one in many matters, probably because the author wants the readers to have some feeling of connection. For example not having both parents because they died in ninja missions, in our world because of divorce. But there are also some serious differences. Most notably all the wars in which parents and children die.

In the very beginning of the manga we see Naruto's sexy jutsu, which he perfects by looking into adult magazines So i wouldn't worry about his sexual education It's very similar to the modern way of getting to know how these things work

As for being asexual, there are studies about modern japanese societies becoming asexual, where many young people simply don't care about these things. You might discuss how much of the japanese society is reflected in the behavior of teenagers in manga stories.
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Old 2013-03-02, 12:43   Link #82
itachi-san314
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Just because Hashirama was stronger than Madara it doesn't mean that his clan is better. The 2 clans were nearly equal, and they were the 2 best clans, that's all we know.
right. i was kind of excluding the uchiha in that statement since i was already talking about them. i meant that we saw a bunch of other clans mentioned around that time period but never the senju who were better than all the rest. they are also arguably better than the uchiha and i would say they are better. their trump card ninja was better than the uchiha's. and the uchiha clearly were subjugated by them. the senju took control, became hokages and madara believed that the senju would eventually wipe them out. that doesn't sound even to me

edit: just reread my original post. i was talking about post-uchiha massacre. so without the uchiha, they are certainly the best clan. if they existed at that time, which i dont think would make sense

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BTW i'm really interested why did Hashirama make a deal with a guy who had his clan's members kill each other to gain more power. Sure those were sick times according to this chapter, Hashirama's father saying that sending children into a war to die as ninjas is a sign of love. When you have that sort of love in a clan it's no wonder the clan will soon be extinct
but once hashirama was the older generation he "spoiled" the kids, namely tsunade. so that sounds more like a thriving environment. there needs to be another explanation. once konoha was created i doubt the senju kept sending their kids to war
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Old 2013-03-02, 13:02   Link #83
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
they are also arguably better than the uchiha and i would say they are better.
If they were better they would have done what Hashirama's father said: kill everybody. They simply failed to beat the Uchiha, and they had many years to do it, furthermore they couldn't beat the Uchiha even after Hashirama became their leader. We'll see in the next chapter if Hashirama spared his enemies when he became the strongest in the world.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and the uchiha clearly were subjugated by them. the senju took control, became hokages and madara believed that the senju would eventually wipe them out. that doesn't sound even to me
No, they had a treaty to create the ninja village, they shook hands in the manga, they were equal partners in creating the village. Of course if Tobito's and other flashbacks tell the truth, we'll see about that in the next chapters. The problem was that while there were 2 almost equally powerful leaders who made the village but the military organization needed one leader. You can't disregard Kishimoto's hints in these 2 chapters where he shows us how competitive Madara is, he tries to be equal even in rock throwing to Hashirama, it's a clear hint that he would not accept being number 2 in the village. Madara feared that the Senju would wipe them out because the Uchiha chose to follow a senju leadership of the village over him. All that was about politics and selfish desires for power and not actual clan strengths.
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Old 2013-03-02, 13:32   Link #84
itachi-san314
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If they were better they would have done what Hashirama's father said: kill everybody.
you're disregarding your own statements. you just recently said hashirama was better than madara, which he was. but he chose not to kill similar to naruto. just because naruto was slightly better than gaara when they fought didnt mean gaara had to die. based on recent events, it seems hashirama didn't have to make a truce at all. tobirama didnt want it

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The problem was that while there were 2 almost equally powerful leaders who made the village but the military organization needed one leader.
easy problem to fix. make an uchiha the second hokage over tobirama. or the third hokage... or the fourth... nope all senju and senju disciples. no matter how you want to frame it, it isn't fair to the uchiha who as you just said were "equal partners". not only that, but they should have had uchiha elders and made an uchiha equal in leadership to danzo over the root division
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Old 2013-03-02, 14:03   Link #85
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you're disregarding your own statements. you just recently said hashirama was better than madara, which he was. but he chose not to kill similar to naruto. just because naruto was slightly better than gaara when they fought didnt mean gaara had to die. based on recent events, it seems hashirama didn't have to make a truce at all. tobirama didnt want it
You should read more carefully, this is not about Hashirama and Madara, it's about 2 clans. We see how both of them were children while their clans were already fighting each other. They were not the leaders and they were not the strongest clan members for a long time. Even after they became leaders it's not clear if they were so much above the others, people develop their powers over time, they are not born hokage level.

Let me give an example: Naruto and Gaara fight and Naruto wins and then tries to kill Gaara but then Kankuro defends Gaara by attacking the weakened Naruto with a poison puppet and kills him. But if Naruto decides to spare Gaara and then Kankuro and Temari take him back to sand village then does that mean Naruto could have destroyed the enemy just because he was slightly better than the enemy's leader? What i mean that even if Hashirama was stronger than Madara that doesn't mean that all the other MS/EMS users of the Uchiha clan couldn't have balanced out the clan wars. You simply assume that Hashirama could destroy the Uchiha clan by himself, but we don't know if that's true, and most likely that is not the truth that Kishimoto wants to tell us.

I understand that power level differences are too extreme in this manga, and that often makes team efforts and the existence of large organizations unrealistic. I mean even Deidara could have destroyed the whole sand village by dropping first a large invisible bomb with his micro-bombs that can't be detected and then finish them off with a large super-bomb that Gaara stopped with his sand. Akatsuki could have destroyed each village one by one by ganging up on them. So it's pointless to base our discussions on rational deduction based on the assumption that these guys would use their super-powers in the smartest possible way, instead it's better to base the discussion on what the author wants us to think. If the author says that an organization (Uchiha or Senju clan) is strong and matters more than one individual then i rather go with that instead of discussing how Hashirama could have destroyed all the existing clans one by one.


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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
easy problem to fix. make an uchiha the second hokage over tobirama. or the third hokage... or the fourth... nope all senju and senju disciples. no matter how you want to frame it, it isn't fair to the uchiha who as you just said were "equal partners". not only that, but they should have had uchiha elders and made an uchiha equal in leadership to danzo over the root division
That doesn't fix the problem, there's one hokage and that's it. As for what happened after Hashirama died we will probably see that in some future flashback chapters. Sure things didn't go as he wanted to, which in the end caused Sasuke's revenge story.
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Old 2013-03-02, 21:50   Link #86
Artimus_Prime
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^i totally don't get what you guys are saying... are you saying that the senju were around during the uchiha massacre? and possibly just as large a clan as the uchiha? ...and of course just never mentioned... you know... the clan that is the most elite of all ninja...

even if that pans out to be true, it doesn't make it less ridiculous
i just wanted to make that Boondocks reference it was a funny episode...

but more on topic, ill just let kishi tell the story and see how this flashback unfolds...too preoccupied with storm 3 coming
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Old 2013-03-02, 23:31   Link #87
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
You should read more carefully, this is not about Hashirama and Madara, it's about 2 clans.
you should read my posts more carefully if you are going to blindly disagree with them. my point was just that 1 of the examples that put the senju slightly above the uchiha is that their trump card (hashirama) beats the uchiha trump card of madara

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You simply assume that Hashirama could destroy the Uchiha clan by himself, but we don't know if that's true, and most likely that is not the truth that Kishimoto wants to tell us.
no, you simply put words in my mouth which is happening way too frequently with people i debate lately... i challenge you to find a quote of mine in which i say hashirama can beat the entire uchiha clan...

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If the author says that an organization (Uchiha or Senju clan) is strong and matters more than one individual then i rather go with that instead of discussing how Hashirama could have destroyed all the existing clans one by one.
but you are disregarding the authors intentions in this preposterous assumption... that you are putting on me I guess? anyway, it's all null and void right off the bat because hashirama isn't a merciless killer. if he was then yes, he could have laid waste to a lot of ninja in his heyday

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That doesn't fix the problem, there's one hokage and that's it.
no, there have been 5 hokage and danzo. 4 relevant ones before the uchiha had enough and planned a coup d'etat.

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As for what happened after Hashirama died we will probably see that in some future flashback chapters. Sure things didn't go as he wanted to, which in the end caused Sasuke's revenge story.
i'm looking forward to the flashback of tobirama seizing power over the uchiha who deserved to have the seat of second hokage
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Old 2013-03-03, 07:23   Link #88
Ero-Senn1n
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you should read my posts more carefully if you are going to blindly disagree with them. my point was just that 1 of the examples that put the senju slightly above the uchiha is that their trump card (hashirama) beats the uchiha trump card of madara
Let me quote your earlier post:
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
we saw a bunch of other clans mentioned around that time period but never the senju who were better than all the rest. they are also arguably better than the uchiha and i would say they are better. their trump card ninja was better than the uchiha's.
You put the Senju above the Uchiha, and tell that it was because their best man - namely Hashirama - was stronger. My point was that even if Hashirama is stronger that doesn't necessarily mean that Senju are stronger. The fact is that you are assuming that Hashirama spared the Uchiha, but there's no evidence to that. Maybe there will be in the next chapter, but not now. As far as we know they had multiple battles and none of the two prevailed so they decided to stop this mindless killing and form an alliance which then became the village. Notice that at the forming of the alliance they shook hands as equal partners. Do you think Madara would do that if he was defeated? If Hashirama defeated him continuosly but spared his life would this competitive guy just stand there like an equal partner? I don't think so, but maybe you are right, we don't know that yet, we'll see in the next chapter.

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but you are disregarding the authors intentions in this preposterous assumption... that you are putting on me I guess? anyway, it's all null and void right off the bat because hashirama isn't a merciless killer. if he was then yes, he could have laid waste to a lot of ninja in his heyday
What i tried to tell is that while Kishimoto makes individual too strong by letting them have godlike jutsu and abilities he emphasizes that what matters are organizations and clans. You just assume that because Hashirama is stronger that makes Senju stronger automatically. And that makes sense seeing how Hashirama had godlike powers, but what i say is that it's not what Kishimoto wants us to think. For example in the anime Hokuto no ken the powerful individuals rule over everything simply because they are so strong, no army or organization can stand in their way. Here Hashirama dies for an unknown reason at a young age, Tobirama is killed by some random enemy ninja in a war, all the Edo Tensei ninjas who were previously hyped up (Deidara, etc.) are beaten by a team effort of the alliance. The feudal lords are allowed to rule, ninja organizations take orders from civilians and do not want to sieze power. That just doesn't make sense if you use common logic, this manga has it's own logic, so thinking by that logic makes more sense.

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no, there have been 5 hokage and danzo.
There's only one hokage at a time, future promises in a world like that are pointless.

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i'm looking forward to the flashback of tobirama seizing power over the uchiha who deserved to have the seat of second hokage
They didn't deserve it, neither should the Senju, the village was not about Senju and Uchiha only. You just disregard other clans that joined the village. From the 3rd hokage on to the future it was the most talented ninja that got the title. If you want to debate that then i think that only the 2nd hokage is in question. If Madara didn't attack and leave the village than he would have been the 2nd. He was the one who failed his clan because of his personal ambitions. Once he betrayed the village his clan was politically weakened.
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:36   Link #89
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i'm looking forward to the flashback of tobirama seizing power over the uchiha who deserved to have the seat of second hokage
me too...
the hashirama/madara story is very akin to the original sons of the sage…one philosophy for peace chosen over the other…perhaps the uchiha way should have been chosen. they have discovered that emotion leads to pain and hate and thus sought to seal them away. no winners or losers. but doings so only leaves hate and a lust for more power. perhaps they should have just led together from the beginning...
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:37   Link #90
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Shino could defeat hashirama with termites.
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Old 2013-03-03, 13:03   Link #91
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Let me quote your earlier post:
and let me quote my entire earlier post because you seem to not be able to see it. hashirama > madara was just 1 reason, not the be all end all of my point.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
...and the uchiha clearly were subjugated by them. the senju took control, became hokages and madara believed that the senju would eventually wipe them out. that doesn't sound even to me

edit: just reread my original post. i was talking about post-uchiha massacre. so without the uchiha, they are certainly the best clan. if they existed at that time, which i dont think would make sense
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You just assume that because Hashirama is stronger that makes Senju stronger automatically.
it would be nice if you stopped saying this... it's not true. i never said it...

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There's only one hokage at a time, future promises in a world like that are pointless.
sarutobi himself said that itachi was hokage-like. making him the 4th over minato would have most likely averted the coup scheme. also, having an uchiha be the second hokage would have probably done the same. there must have been an uchiha below madara who was on or near tobirama's power at that time.

edit: also just pointing out here that the konoha alliance is a 'future promise' in and of itself that these clans would all work together for the better of the village. an addendum that said the uchiha would have equal representation would be just as serious / frivolous as the entire agreement

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They didn't deserve it, neither should the Senju, the village was not about Senju and Uchiha only.
never said it was. but if the uchiha and senju were the strongest clans (which they were) then it stands to reason that they must have had some strong ninja aside from hashirama and madara.

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You just disregard other clans that joined the village.
nope... i'm just assuming that the uchiha had at least 1 strong ninja among them who could have been 2nd hokage. do you disagree?

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If Madara didn't attack and leave the village than he would have been the 2nd. He was the one who failed his clan because of his personal ambitions. Once he betrayed the village his clan was politically weakened.
this makes sense. but if there was an agreement that madara would have been 2nd hokage, he probably wouldn't have felt the way he did. in his own words he feared the senju would wipe the uchiha out. if he felt he had a significant leadership role, which he did deserve, then it wouldn't have happened. but yea, we have yet to see these specifics

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2013-03-03 at 13:16.
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Old 2013-03-03, 14:01   Link #92
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They didn't deserve it [...]
I think its a little naive to believe that Konoha during that time, chose its hokages purely based on a meritocracy system free from corruption. Despite the Senju and Uchiha being allies, I think its rather evident that there were still some feelings of animosity and distrust among them that seem to have impacted the choosing of hokages.
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Old 2013-03-03, 15:06   Link #93
Ero-Senn1n
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sarutobi himself said that itachi was hokage-like. making him the 4th over minato would have most likely averted the coup scheme.
Minato was made hokage before Itachi's birth or around that time, when he died Itachi was about 5-6 years old. So the 3rd should have made him the 5th hokage, i wrote about this a few chapters ago when the 3rd had his flashback on this matter. So i think we agree that Itachi should have been the 5th to avoid what happened after. But at that time the relation of the village and the clan was already very bad.

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also, having an uchiha be the second hokage would have probably done the same. there must have been an uchiha below madara who was on or near tobirama's power at that time.
Yeah, it would be Madara's brother if Madara had allowed him to live
It is questionable if the 2nd was the best choice for hokage, but i don't think that we should question the choice of the 3rd and 4th hokages.

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nope... i'm just assuming that the uchiha had at least 1 strong ninja among them who could have been 2nd hokage. do you disagree?
That can be the case, we'll have to wait if there's some revelation about why exactly didn't they trust the Uchiha. Maybe they suspected that they were behind the 1st's death. Or maybe another MS/EMS user rebelled and killed a lot of Senju before being killed, that would explain the lack of senju. Maybe Madara killed a lot of senju before his fight with the 1st. The 2nd hokage explained how strong emotions they had, maybe he had a reason to fear that because there was some serious incident after the 1st died where some Uchiha killed a lot of people.

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in his own words he feared the senju would wipe the uchiha out.
He reminds me of Danzou, they say that whatever they did was for the clan/village, but the reality is that they are just selfish and want to become leaders so bad that they are villing to sacrifice their own people. Danzou made the root anbu children kill each other after they were raised as brothers, Madara made best friends and brothers kill each other. They just wanted a strong army that makes the leader even stronger and use them in wars. But when you see Danzou's flashback about how the 2nd hokage died it's quite clear that the 2nd was worthy of becoming a hokage regardless of the question if there was any Uchiha who could be the 2nd instead of him. Also he didn't hate Uchiha, he just didn't trust them, otherwise he would have ordered that Kagami guy who was in his team to sacrifice himself to get rid of a strong Uchiha.
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Old 2013-03-03, 15:30   Link #94
itachi-san314
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Minato was made hokage before Itachi's birth or around that time, when he died Itachi was about 5-6 years old. So the 3rd should have made him the 5th hokage, i wrote about this a few chapters ago when the 3rd had his flashback on this matter. So i think we agree that Itachi should have been the 5th to avoid what happened after. But at that time the relation of the village and the clan was already very bad.
yea you're right. i had the timeline goofed up. itachi should have been the 5th after minato's death and prior to the massacre. probably when negotiations broke down between kohona and the uchiha. konoha should have given an inch and made itachi hokage, but as usual senju, senju, senju disciple, senju disciple, ...senju

for the record i don't question hiruzen or minato being hokages at all. also, i dont question tobirama's ability to be hokage. i question the poor judgment of excluding the uchiha (1 of the 2 founding and best clans) from being a leader of the village ever, particularly for the seat of second hokage. no matter what the 2nd hokage would be strong enough being from senju or uchiha and divvying the power up between clans would have been the politically savvy decision

~on a side note i dont think i ever wrote a sentence with 2 words containing double v's...
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Old 2013-03-03, 20:09   Link #95
Ero-Senn1n
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konoha should have given an inch and made itachi hokage,
I would like to see the elders if Sasuke becomes hokage
If Naruto can make hokage of the last Uchiha then he surely has reached the level of the Sage of 6 paths. By now Naruto said so many times that he wants to be the hokage that it would be plain boring if the story ends with that

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but as usual senju, senju, senju disciple, senju disciple, ...senju
Well according to you there shouldn't be any senju around at that time
Except Tsunade but she was the last choice for hokage, Orochimaru was evil and Jiraiya refused. And Minato was not a senju's disciple, i don't think that Jiraiya has anything to do with them.
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Old 2013-03-04, 17:19   Link #96
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yea you're right. i had the timeline goofed up. itachi should have been the 5th after minato's death and prior to the massacre. probably when negotiations broke down between kohona and the uchiha. konoha should have given an inch and made itachi hokage, but as usual senju, senju, senju disciple, senju disciple, ...senju
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Well according to you there shouldn't be any senju around at that time
Except Tsunade but she was the last choice for hokage, Orochimaru was evil and Jiraiya refused. And Minato was not a senju's disciple, i don't think that Jiraiya has anything to do with them.
Hmmm. Makes me think. There has been a sensei-pupil relationship between previous Hokage and their successors (if not direct, then still part of the same teacher-student line like Hiruzen -> Minato) is it possible that if things hadn't turned out like they did, Obito could've been named Hokage by Minato?

In the flashbacks we see that Kakashi was obviously the star pupil. But once his friends were put in serious danger and his Sharingan awakened Obito fought very well, possibly on Kakashi's level. And he would only improve from there once he got his 3rd tomoe . Imagine if Obito wasn't crushed and that whole crazy Rin dying thing didn't happen. Obito had a Naruto-like dedication to becoming Hokage and Kakashi seems to have more of a "meh" attitude towards it (plus he wouldn't have gotten his Sharingan). Obito would continue to be guided by Minato, who would see his potential and enthusiasm. Could Obito have been set to become an Uchiha Hokage?
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:12   Link #97
Ero-Senn1n
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is it possible that if things hadn't turned out like they did, Obito could've been named Hokage by Minato?
It seems that the "elders" had always a strong role, and they would not let that happen. In the end it comes down to first the 2nd hokage and then the elders. I wonder if that Kagami guy will have some negative role or maybe Danzou will plot against the Uchiha in the flashback.

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and that whole crazy Rin dying thing didn't happen.
If that didn't happen then Obito wouldn't be as strong, it was explained that very strong emotions are needed to evolve the eye to MS. Rin's death was probably a huge powerup for Obito. Itachi's reason to torment Sasuke is to make him stronger, so that he would be strong enough to survive all the shit that comes against him when Itachi can't defend him any more, namely Danzou and his minions and later Madara. Sure if there was another way to make Sasuke stronger and thus give him a chance to survive then Itachi's behavior towards Sasuke would not make any sense.
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Old 2013-03-04, 20:38   Link #98
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If that didn't happen then Obito wouldn't be as strong, it was explained that very strong emotions are needed to evolve the eye to MS. Rin's death was probably a huge powerup for Obito. Itachi's reason to torment Sasuke is to make him stronger, so that he would be strong enough to survive all the shit that comes against him when Itachi can't defend him any more, namely Danzou and his minions and later Madara. Sure if there was another way to make Sasuke stronger and thus give him a chance to survive then Itachi's behavior towards Sasuke would not make any sense.
yeah the uchiha figured out that there is power in hate...knowing this, yeah, itachis actions and subsequently sasukes dive into the darkness makes a bit more sense. but i imagine there is another way, itachi just didnt trust that it would work. ultimately, as tobirama dreamed, the uchiha powers will be harnessed for the good of the village and the world...sasukes role will be to fulfill this

as an aside, i wonder if the color of susanoo is based on the emotion driving it...itachi wasnt driven by hate and his is a lighter color
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Old 2013-03-04, 20:49   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It seems that the "elders" had always a strong role, and they would not let that happen. In the end it comes down to first the 2nd hokage and then the elders. I wonder if that Kagami guy will have some negative role or maybe Danzou will plot against the Uchiha in the flashback.
I don't think the elders' influence is that strong. Tsunade regularly shrugged off their insisting that Naruto be kept under wraps in the village and let Naruto go on missions as he pleased and they really didn't do more than give her a stern look and told her that if anything bad happened it would be her responsibility. I think really their political power is really quite limited compared to the Hokage.

They were (along with Danzou) the masterminds behind the Uchiha massacre but I think they were able to move that plan because the situation was critical and there seemed to be few other options.

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If that didn't happen then Obito wouldn't be as strong, it was explained that very strong emotions are needed to evolve the eye to MS. Rin's death was probably a huge powerup for Obito.
He would be different than he is now...that doesn't mean he couldn't become very strong. Remember that strong emotions also stem from protecting others. Shisui developed his Sharingan in a special way and became highly revered for his strength. As far as we know, he didn't go through the traumatic experience needed to gain MS. Obito would also have the opportunity to be personally groomed by Minato. I'm not talking about him necessarily being as ridiculously powerful as he is now, but instead meeting the requirements to become a Hokage.

Anyways, food for thought...
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:04   Link #100
ranchan13
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I can't help but be curious about the 4th's reaction when he learns that it was Obito, his student, who lead to the death of himself and his wife as their child was born.
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