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Old 2013-03-03, 17:26   Link #2561
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Those guys remain so secluded and separated from the events that go on, that I can't see Kirinji being an effective replacement for Unohana (unless he decides to go back to the Gotei 13).
gotta disagree here. gotei 13 aside, the zero squad will obviously be partaking in this war against the quincies and his healing skills will certainly replace unohana's in that regard. i assume his character is what gave kubo the ability to kill unohana in the first place. it's a direct replacement of the best healer we knew of, for a new, even more badass healer who trained her who we are just now meeting

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Originally Posted by GDiddy View Post
Why the hell is Chad even still around? Or even Ishida....notice how this is supposedly his arc but yet Kubo pretty much pulled the same shit that he pulled during what was supposedly Chad's arc? And I'm a big Ishida fan...
chad is beyond useless at this point, but i think ishida will have some time to shine and probably very soon. he most likely will help with ichigo's quincy training. of course, he will never be interesting because kubo lacks the writing talent to do it, but if ishida was going to be interesting, he needs to turn bad and join the shitritters

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It's so obvious that Kubo has no more use for them and even Orihime for that matter....but Hime's got big tits so Kubo will keep her arse around.
haha yes, they are her saving grace. i'm not exactly sure how rukia managed to stick around for so long without them
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Old 2013-03-03, 17:27   Link #2562
GDiddy
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
heh sorry. it's a mixture of truth and humor since SS really has made a lot of stupid decisions. more than i want to list. but this in particular is surely one of them. they use inoue only when kubo needs it for whatever story he has in mind. their actions are not dictated by intelligence or logic, merely whatever the future plot holds.

yes. since aizen mind raped them, they have been getting progressively dumber

doubtful. her and chad had their chance in the fullbring arc, but it was more of the same nothingness
Why the hell is Chad even still around? Or even Ishida....notice how this is supposedly his arc but yet Kubo pretty much pulled the same shit that he pulled during what was supposedly Chad's arc? And I'm a big Ishida fan...

It's so obvious that Kubo has no more use for them and even Orihime for that matter....but Hime's got big tits so Kubo will keep her arse around.
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Old 2013-03-03, 17:41   Link #2563
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I disagree. At the very least, one can easily argue that she's a lot more valuable than most of the other captains in the Gotei 13. Besides, if healing were her only forte, she would've never been a kenpachi in the first place, nor would she have lived to serve as a Captain for as long she did. She's the best Kido user among the entire Gotei 13 as far as we know. So if there was anyone who didn't have to rely on a zanpakuto to fight the Quincies, it would probably be her. Combine that with the fact that she's got better swordskills and more experience than most other captains, and I'd say she had plenty more to bring to the table than just healing.
I wasn't clear, but that's not what I meant. My point was, the loss in comparison wasn't as though she had a long list of things which made bringing out Kenpachi's real power not worth it. She has healing abilities, and kidou abilities. She is a great captain, yes, but it's not as though there was someone else capable of getting Kenpachi to where he is now.

She was the only person capable of removing the limit he placed on himself, and Kenpachi is vital to Seireitei's forces currently, he was the 1 guy who was able to kill the Sternritters in the invasion, despite some captains not contending (Unohana).

To me, it was a good move, because it had to be done. I'm not confident Unohana can beat Juha Bach, and thats likely where Shunsui's eye is currently, he wants Kenpachi to do it. That's what I believe at least

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
He barely killed her...after he technically already lost countless times against her during their duel. In the end, we know that his full potential surpasses Unohana's. I'm not arguing that. But we're never told by how much. Whats more is that, the power he did achieve didn't appear to be so vastly superior to Unohana's to the point where it felt like it was worth killing her over.

I mean look at this way--they both admired each other because they could both push each other to their limits. Zaraki just happened to be the one who proved his ceiling for growth was always a little higher in the end. But its not like he ever seemed as if he was in a league of his own next to Unohana. I mean I could see if the battle ended with him growing so strong, that he was catching her sword with his bare hand or tanking all her strikes with his reiatsu alone, but it didn't happen. He barely won by the time Unohana acknowledged that he regained the strength he used to have.

So I really hope he learns some new OP tricks with shikai. And it better not just be a yellow version of Getsuga Tenshou with a different name.
She was getting him because he still had the limit placed. After looking at the chapters where he won, it seemed pretty clear to me that Kenpachi outmached her, maybe it's just perspective though.

Even if I'm wrong, and he was just a cut above her, the shikai alone -should- have powered him up so much that well, he's on a new level, lol.

Losing Unohana -is- a loss, but it was a necessary one for the benefits gained. I suppose we'll have to wait and see just how far Kenpachi goes with his new powers. Like you say though, I really hope it's interesting.
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Old 2013-03-03, 17:55   Link #2564
sayde
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Originally Posted by Kitsueki View Post
To me, it was a good move, because it had to be done. I'm not confident Unohana can beat Juha Bach, and thats likely where Shunsui's eye is currently, he wants Kenpachi to do it. That's what I believe at least
But if Kenpachi is to take on the big bad, who's going to be left to take on all those other tough guys that had the edge over most of the Captains? It sure would've been nice for the Gotei 13 to still have their own sub-boss still alive to fall back on. Because right now, I'm not convinced anyone among them (minus Kenpachi) is worthy enough to match up against the strongest the sternritters have to offer.

Anyways, I really don't have much else to say on the matter that hasn't been stated already. So I'm not going to respond to the rest of your points. I acknowledge them. And even though I understand the purpose behind Shunsui's decision, I'll never support the decision for as long as Kubo fails to provide an adequate explanation as to why Orihime wasn't viable option this time.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
gotta disagree here. gotei 13 aside, the zero squad will obviously be partaking in this war against the quincies and his healing skills will certainly replace unohana's in that regard. i assume his character is what gave kubo the ability to kill unohana in the first place. it's a direct replacement of the best healer we knew of, for a new, even more badass healer who trained her who we are just now meeting
Yes, but as you yourself noted, that's just THIS war. What about the others that could happen in the future the next time an Aizen level threat appears? There would've been dead captains coming out of the previous war had it not been for Unohana. And that was a war the Zero Squad didn't deem necessary to join in on (since the Gotei 13 still barely won). Those guys only seem to show up after the Gotei 13 has been defeated and the seireitei ends up in ruins. In fact, we don't know if Byuakuya would've even lived long enough to make it to Kirinji's place without Unohana's expertise to keep him alive. So you can't count on Kirinji's healing abilities every time a captain or two ends up being critically injured during a major crisis. Maybe he'll show up, or maybe he won't. Or maybe he'll arrive too late for it to matter (since you no longer have someone as talented as Unohana present to buy some time).
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Old 2013-03-03, 18:06   Link #2565
GDiddy
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Kirinji don't give a shit; he's too busy chillaxing in his hot springs city....same with the other RGs.

And anyone that goes against Bach....or even Blondie....is dead. Doesn't matter if you're RG, or just a regular shinigami...Bach is Ichigo's. Kenny might be able to handle Blondie or other VRs...and maybe Renji can handle some lower levels, depending on the outcome of his training...but anyone else?

They're dead pretty much. Or will be at least in Byakuya's situation.
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Old 2013-03-03, 18:36   Link #2566
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Yes, but as you yourself noted, that's just THIS war. What about the others that could happen in the future the next time an Aizen level threat appears?
unohana wasnt exactly helpful in fending off aizen. and she was only able to heal the injured because aizen didnt kill them for some unknown stupid reason. also, i think kubo only cares about this war since this is the end of the series. it sucks not being able to talk about the story logically, but kubo has made it impossible. who will be the go-to healer this arc? kirinji. who will be the goto healer in the future beyond bleach? some 4th squad member who randomly got to be as good as is needed at healing i guess

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There would've been dead captains coming out of the previous war had it not been for Unohana. And that was a war the Zero Squad didn't deem necessary to join in on (since the Gotei 13 still barely won).
zero squad must have known that kubo had no intention of killing anyone good in the arrancar arc. i know it sounds silly of me to say it like that, but it's true. aizen was so far above the captains that he could have easily killed them. he was beating them 4 at a time for pity's sake. the only reason he didnt kill them was because he didnt want to for no reason. and the overall reason was because kubo didnt want him to. it's illogical and stupid but true

i know making an argument like this makes it impossible to debate the issue, but when it comes to logic in bleach, i just dont see it. fight outcomes are all at kubo's whim regardless of whether or not the exact same thing happened prior with different results
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Old 2013-03-03, 20:04   Link #2567
sayde
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
unohana wasnt exactly helpful in fending off aizen.
That's not really a fair thing to say coming from someone who clearly acknowledges how illogical Kubo's made the plot play out at times. I mean its not like she was a given fair opportunity to at least try to be helpful in that regard. She was the designated healer from the start of the war till the end of the war.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and she was only able to heal the injured because aizen didnt kill them for some unknown stupid reason.
Yes. Aizen did leave them barely alive. But she still deserves credit for keeping critical injuries from turning into fatal ones.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
zero squad must have known that kubo had no intention of killing anyone good in the arrancar arc.
I'm not sure that's the case. Just the fact that these guys showed up AFTER the battle had been lost and the CC died says a lot IMO. They don't move unless the spirit king gives the order. And the spirit king doesn't appear to give the order for as long as a viable force currently remains to challenge the opposing threat. In the previous arc, I'm guessing he was somehow able to see that Ichigo grew to become the answer to the only enemy remaining--Aizen. However in this particular situation, there was literally no one left to turn to that could contend with the big bads--except for the Zero Squad.

On a final note, you don't have to discuss Bleach logically with me anymore if you don't want to. (I know I certainly understand your reasons for not wanting to do so.) However, there will be times when I will occasionally look at the series from a logical point of view for the sake of calling out Kubo on what I think are legitimate gripes when I feel the need to vent (like now). So feel free to ignore these moments of mine.
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Old 2013-03-03, 20:12   Link #2568
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I just vent because this was the first series I ever seriously loved..like wrote fanfic for. And at one point, Rukia, Yoruichi and Yachiru were among my favorite female characters.

To see Kubo destroy it on a weekly basis makes me rage...but at least with Isshin's backstory coming up, the one thing I've wanted to see FOR YEARS is finally here.
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Old 2013-03-03, 22:28   Link #2569
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I mean its not like she was a given fair opportunity to at least try to be helpful in that regard. She was the designated healer from the start of the war till the end of the war.
vs an opponent that isshin, yoruichi and urahara couldn't beat together? i'm sorry, but she had no chance vs aizen

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I'm not sure that's the case. Just the fact that these guys showed up AFTER the battle had been lost and the CC died says a lot IMO. They don't move unless the spirit king gives the order.
it seems to me that the SK gives the order to dispatch the RG if and when the CC dies. While the CC lives, SS should be able to defend itself.

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And the spirit king doesn't appear to give the order for as long as a viable force currently remains to challenge the opposing threat.
i prefer death of the CC since it's simple, but it could be this viable force reason too.

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In the previous arc, I'm guessing he was somehow able to see that Ichigo grew to become the answer to the only enemy remaining--Aizen.
i see it more as yamai-jii, then when he got beat it was gin, then when gin got beat ichigo had trained enough to be a viable force again with FGT

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So feel free to ignore these moments of mine.
heh no worries, it's fun
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Old 2013-03-03, 22:37   Link #2570
amaterasu4
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
of course there is a compelling reason. SS is run by idiots. it always has been and always will be. i dont think there is 1 instance yet where SS has made a logical decision about anything. i dont think kubo did this intentionally, but at least he is keeping it real and not making SS smart all of a sudden
I'm starting to think that Aizen never needed to make illusions to begin with if he wanted to manipulate them

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Originally Posted by GDiddy View Post
Maybe it's me....but damn does the SS seem even more idiotic so far this arc.
It already felt dumb to wait for Ginjo to betray Ichigo to give him powers even though they were assigned to kill him but...
four words: Do not use bankai!

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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Yes. Aizen did leave them barely alive. But she still deserves credit for keeping critical injuries from turning into fatal ones.
That could explain why Hinamori, Sarugaki and Hitsugaya managed to survive.
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Old 2013-03-03, 23:07   Link #2571
sayde
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
vs an opponent that isshin, yoruichi and urahara couldn't beat together? i'm sorry, but she had no chance vs aizen
Depends on when they could've fought. There's more than enough evidence to suggest that both Isshin and Urahara could stand up to Aizen on 1-on-1 terms just fine before he started transforming. With that said, I believe Unohana vs Aizen's base form could've been a fair and even match-up--especially since she came the closest to seeing through his illusions, even before his ability was made public knowledge. These recent chapters have even helped support the old suspicion of Aizen fleeing from Unohana in C46 because of her strength. It's only after the transformations began that Aizen became god-tier to everyone minus Ichigo.
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heh no worries, it's fun
Glad we can continue to keep things civil then.
I've got nothing to say against your other points either because I agreed or because I find no fault with our difference of perspectives on certain issues.
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Old 2013-03-03, 23:32   Link #2572
Langus
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Maybe I'm forgetting something but why can't he have just been a captain?
Someone would have mentioned it if he'd been a Captain any time in the last few centuries. If he was zero squad it would explain a lot more, like his insane power level for one.
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Old 2013-03-04, 00:33   Link #2573
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Depends on when they could've fought. ... I believe Unohana vs Aizen's base form could've been a fair and even match-up--especially since she came the closest to seeing through his illusions, even before his ability was made public knowledge. These recent chapters have even helped support the old suspicion of Aizen fleeing from Unohana in C46 because of her strength. It's only after the transformations began that Aizen became god-tier to everyone minus Ichigo.
yea, that falls under SS being idiots and kubo doing whatever he wants in the face of logic. 2 basic axioms of bleach. unohana didnt attack aizen when he was mortal for the same reason gin didn't. because they have SS's illogical tendencies and kubo didnt want aizen stopped at that time.

but we are talking about the arrancar arc here in which aizen had already integrated the hyougoku and was immortal and no matter how many times you killed him, he kept coming back in a more evolved state. so at that time, unohana had nothing on him
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:08   Link #2574
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Originally Posted by Langus View Post
Someone would have mentioned it if he'd been a Captain any time in the last few centuries. If he was zero squad it would explain a lot more, like his insane power level for one.
Unless they're in on it (like Urahara or Ryuuken), or haven't seen him. I'm not sure who even caught a glimpse of him during the Aizen fight.
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:23   Link #2575
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
And if Kubo's got any sense, he'll reveal Inoue to be nearby with a good excuse as to why Shunsui didn't want to let either Ken or Unohana know her role in their training session--which wouldn't be that difficult to explain.
This would actually make sense given Shunsui's personality. He pits Unohana and Zaraki against each other, giving them both the idea that it's a fight to the death, so they go all out, then has Orihime secretly bring her back afterwards so he can bring her out of hiding at a later point as a trump card. Yama-jii was nothing if not direct. Shunsui...not so much.

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Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
Suprised no one has yet mentioned the confirmation that the Kurosaki name did indeed come from Masaki, which explains Ichigo's non recognition in Soul Society.
Kinda begs the question as to what Isshin's family name was beforehand...

...Not. It was obviously Shiba. Kubo's given far too many hints toward that end already.
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Old 2013-03-04, 01:40   Link #2576
SoloPanda
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This would actually make sense given Shunsui's personality. He pits Unohana and Zaraki against each other, giving them both the idea that it's a fight to the death, so they go all out, then has Orihime secretly bring her back afterwards so he can bring her out of hiding at a later point as a trump card. Yama-jii was nothing if not direct. Shunsui...not so much.


Kinda begs the question as to what Isshin's family name was beforehand...

...Not. It was obviously Shiba. Kubo's given far too many hints toward that end already.
hmph it was kenpachi obviously! well on that note it would be strange for him to not be a shiba. everything points in that direction atleast.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:04   Link #2577
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by dragonmeister View Post
Perhaps it helps him restore the balance to his soul, or something? As the chapter's "Everything but the rain" (although that was also the name of chapter 512, which seems kinda lazy), it could be a way of stopping the rain in his soul and allowing him to come to terms with himself, so that he can fix himself and his bankai? That sounds like the sort of crap Kubo would come up with, tbh
Yep. Supposedly Ichigo already "stopped the rain" in his soul at the end of Soul Society arc, but he still has parent issues. Also, he still doesn't know he's part Quincy. That's a whole different set of powers to tap into. Cue training with Ryuuken.

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And if Kubo's got any sense, he'll reveal Inoue to be nearby with a good excuse as to why Shunsui didn't want to let either Ken or Unohana know her role in their training session--which wouldn't be that difficult to explain.
I see little to no chance of that happening. This wasn't Unohana sacrificing herself out of a sense of duty to Social Society, this is how she wanted to die. The only way she wanted to die, I imagine.

But I theorize that Unohana dying--and staying dead--is important to Kenpachi's development. Sounds weird, but I think Unohana was like a pacifier to him or a security blanket. He admired her and the thought of an opponent who would always be there to offer him the fight of his life comforted him. When faced with the fact that he could lose that, he limited his power rather than admit he was above her.

In order to realize you don't need your blanky and patsy anymore you need them taken away. If Unohana continued to live, Kenpachi might end up convincing himself he didn't really win, and could easily slip back to the habit of limiting his powers again.

Shunsui and Unohana know this, which is why it was useless to have a healer on hand. Unohana could heal Kenpachi as much as needed, but once Kenpachi unlocked his power again, Unohana had to stay dead for him to maintain it.
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Old 2013-03-04, 18:33   Link #2578
sayde
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I see little to no chance of that happening. This wasn't Unohana sacrificing herself out of a sense of duty to Social Society, this is how she wanted to die.
...And she got what she wanted. Should she be revived, I'd be very disappointed in her character if she expressed disappointment over not staying dead. The purpose was achieved. She was killed and has officially and properly passed on her title as Kenpachi to its rightful owner. So if she were to be revived, I'd like to think she'd see it as a rebirth of sorts and a chance to finally move on with her life through leaving her past behind.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
But I theorize that Unohana dying--and staying dead--is important to Kenpachi's development. Sounds weird, but I think Unohana was like a pacifier to him or a security blanket. He admired her and the thought of an opponent who would always be there to offer him the fight of his life comforted him. When faced with the fact that he could lose that, he limited his power rather than admit he was above her.

In order to realize you don't need your blanky and patsy anymore you need them taken away. If Unohana continued to live, Kenpachi might end up convincing himself he didn't really win, and could easily slip back to the habit of limiting his powers again.

Shunsui and Unohana know this, which is why it was useless to have a healer on hand. Unohana could heal Kenpachi as much as needed, but once Kenpachi unlocked his power again, Unohana had to stay dead for him to maintain it.
That's not something I'm willing to buy into. I mean if an infant has truly learned to go without the object he/she needs to feel at peace with, then reintroducing that thing to him/her shouldn't result in a reliance on it once more. That's to say, the infant should instead have learned to continue on without it (even if it is a constant presence). If we want, we could even compare this to a former smoker or drinker who's sworn off cigarettes or alcohol for good. If they've truly learned to move past their dependency on such things, then they shouldn't succumb to any potential temptations as they arise.

So for as long as Zaraki's convinced she's dead and has truly learned and come to grips with the fact that he doesn't need her anymore, then there should be no reason for him to revert back to his old self-inhibiting behavior should he unexpectedly get Unohana back at a later time. Otherwise that would mean he hasn't really learned a thing and his recent character development would be revealed to have never truly happened in the first place. Come to think of it, Unohana's revival could actually be one of the best ways to confirm his character's development on the issue once and for all.

Last edited by sayde; 2013-03-04 at 19:13.
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Old 2013-03-04, 21:26   Link #2579
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
...And she got what she wanted. Should she be revived, I'd be very disappointed in her character if she expressed disappointment over not staying dead.
Yeah but she's done... it's like finishing a race. There's no point to keep running after the finish line. When it's through it's time to rest (don't mention "what about the next race?", it's retirement. )

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That's not something I'm willing to buy into. I mean if an infant has truly learned to go without the object he/she needs to feel at peace with, then reintroducing that thing to him/her shouldn't result in a reliance on it once more. That's to say, the infant should instead have learned to continue on without it (even if it is a constant presence). If we want, we could even compare this to a former smoker or drinker who's sworn off cigarettes or alcohol for good. If they've truly learned to move past their dependency on such things, then they shouldn't succumb to any potential temptations as they arise.
True, but it takes time. You don't congratulate a recovering alcoholic by handing him a cold brew, even if he has taken the steps to truly be free of it.

Zaraki surpassing his idol was only truly confirmed to him by her death. Because he never has the prospect of facing her again, he won't limit his power in anticipation of fighting her again. Until he faces these new threats, the finality of her death needs to remain. After that, well yeah, he shouldn't be dependent on her anymore. But by then it's kinda pointless to bring Unohana back just 'cause...
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Old 2013-03-04, 23:50   Link #2580
sayde
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Yeah but she's done... it's like finishing a race. There's no point to keep running after the finish line. When it's through it's time to rest (don't mention "what about the next race?", it's retirement. )
ehh...I guess. Its hard for me to see this in a comparable manner to a race. Ever since her big secret has been revealed, she came off to me as someone living two lives--the one life that ended unresolved and in shame and the other life as the #1 medic and supporting pillar of strength among the Gotei 13. Now that her obligations to her former life have been fulfilled and have come to a fitting conclusion, I see nothing wrong with her being able to continue to live out her second life fulfilling her other obligations at a time when the Gotei 13 can use all the strength they can get.

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True, but it takes time. You don't congratulate a recovering alcoholic by handing him a cold brew, even if he has taken the steps to truly be free of it.

Zaraki surpassing his idol was only truly confirmed to him by her death. Because he never has the prospect of facing her again, he won't limit his power in anticipation of fighting her again. Until he faces these new threats, the finality of her death needs to remain.
Point taken. It's why I've expressed that I'd be okay with the prospect of Shunsui keeping a supposed revival by Inoue a secret until such a time proves tactically wise. Because perhaps he does need a bit to fully accept his loss and to overcome it. And perhaps he does need to wait until he's matched up against new worthy opponents before that happens. But there's no good reason for her to have to stay dead once all those conditions have been met.
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
After that, well yeah, he shouldn't be dependent on her anymore. But by then it's kinda pointless to bring Unohana back just 'cause...
We might never see eye-to-eye here. Having her return at a later time could still prove extremely beneficial for the Gotei 13 so long as it happens at an opportune moment (as oppose to the story's conclusion when it would no longer matter). Because as far as I can see, these Quincies already appear to have plenty of tough guys that seem like they hold a sizable advantage over the remaining captains. And to make matters worse, Kubo's confirmed that they'll only grow in numbers. So I'd hardly consider Unohana's hypothetical return to the plot to be pointless. Nor would it have to be done in a way that makes it seem like she came back "just 'cause..." since she still has plenty to contribute. But to see her go out like this...it's just so...stupid. I'd have an easier time accepting her (permanent) demise if she died against an enemy as oppose to getting degraded to nothing more than a stepping stone for a mere supporting character's benefit.

Jeez...not even Ichigo has needed to kill off one of the good guys indefinitely just for a powerup.

Also, I just had a random thought. We keep going on and on about how Unohana's immediate revival could potentially prove detrimental for Kenpachi's growth. But couldn't it actually turn out to have the complete opposite effect? I mean if his underlying fear this entire time was the thought of not having a worthy rival anymore upon her death, then one could think that he'd have nothing to worry about anymore if he knew someone could just revive her as much as was necessary. That's to say, he could feel free to go all out against her with absolute impunity since he wouldn't have to fear the prospect of never being able to fight her again just because he didn't hold back.

Last edited by sayde; 2013-03-05 at 00:09.
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