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Old 2013-03-04, 17:35   Link #10741
Taco Bell
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2nd origin is plot armor. It was heavily implied that 2nd origin made you powerful passively as stated by gray, lucy, natsu about how they feel stronger and wasn't an activated boost. Erza didn't feel any pain because she Ultear said she already had her second origin(aka she was already crazy strong before hand and didn't need to be powered up.) Basically this opened up in the coming battles for every character who got 2nd origin to go super sayain whenever they want.

Anyways back for the tourney. Someone brought up a good point that Sting takes out juvia, gray, laxus, and gajeel with erza all that is left. Before he takes Erza out he sees lector with milliana and Erza takes him out with FT winning by 1 point.
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Old 2013-03-04, 20:52   Link #10742
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...or even if Fairy Tail does win, they are disqualified as a whole for some of their guild members fighting against the Kingdom, which gives SaberTooth the runner-up 'victory'... And a blow to their ego, knowing that they only 'won' on a technicality. Eat that, Minerva.

And as for the entire 2nd Origin...it would be plot armor if only Fairy Tail members had it, but everyone has a 2nd Origin. Whether they use it or not, or if they can or not, that's up to the individual. Yes, Ultear did bring it out of the Fairy Tail gang, but seriously, it's more akin to plot hax than plot armor...
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Old 2013-03-05, 02:18   Link #10743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
(did Elfman and Cana actuaully do anything? well anyway)
Elfman beat Bacchus, remember?


anyway, Elfman and Cana weren't part of FT's merged team so they didn't do anything new
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Old 2013-03-05, 09:22   Link #10744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
As far as I'm concerned Laxus earned his win, Gajeel earned his win (did Elfman and Cana actuaully do anything? well anyway), Erza and the whole bunch of them spend a whoping 1 minute training, if you can call groaning on your hands and knees "training." Erza in particular didn't even go though that.

If that's all you need to justify power ups of this magnitude then I guess we can just call "training" every time a character is down in the mud. "Oh he's not actually crippled and under 5 tons of rubble, it's training!"
So, for you, everytime a character gets an instant powerup, it's plot armor? Methinks you are confusing two different things.

Plot armor is when a character is protected from dying due to random, unforeseen circumstances. Second Origin was clearly laid out in earlier chapters, and it was explained that Erza was part of that. This is what we, in Storytelling 101, like to call "Chekov's Gun."

What does Mashima have to do? Rip the second origin chapter out of the volume and beat you over the head with it? If Erza has plot armor, then every good guy in every series, ever, has plot armor. Just because you know the main characters aren't really going to die. Your attempt to recast the definition, would make the term lose all significance.
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Old 2013-03-05, 10:52   Link #10745
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well this is really tiresome but looks likes some peoples are reading the wrong manga because read just to complain is being some sort of...

about train in FT:

- first FT is not a martial arts, like naruto or DBZ, this means who "traning" is something not really needed or is something off screen right, if you want chapters and chapters of boring traning to see "sweat bodys" and things like that read "MARTIAL ARTS" mangas (specially seinen), FT is like SAO, like Accel World, like Ao no Exorcist where training is something foreshadow.

- makarov already stated who for mages the "training" is doe jobs the best way to a mage become more strong is just keep working, put himself in more risk than just wasting time fighting a dummy

- Real mages rpg "dont train" they "learn" their powers by spending time looking/reading sources of power (like magic books, scrolls) their are more like levi than natsu or laxus

- just because naruto, maybe OP have training this don't means who FT must follow the same pattern

ps: damn i need a break then i gonna finish what i want say late.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:09   Link #10746
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I don't get why people are finding it so hard to accept that Erza's second origin doesn't sit right with some fans/readers/whatever.

I have no problem with Erza owning almost every one of her opponents - I stated my reason earlier. But I can see where people who are complaining that this feels like a hax. I mean, why is her second origin an active skill when it was implied (or I thought it was) that it was a passive power boost.

Erza is, for all purposes, as much a lead character in FT as Natsu, if not more. So, things like this powerup are gonna happen. Doesn't mean that it won't seem lame or not look like an ass-pull to some people.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:40   Link #10747
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now about nakama powers, feelings and bla bla bla, makarov again already explained about this, "FEELINGS" is something very important for mages, is like their motivation, u having only "pure power" is something good but only power is not enought, in FT verse Feelings(love, hate, anger and others like in green lantern) have the role of boost the power like a fuel( imagine who the power is a engineer and feelings a special fuel like nitro who make the car/bike run much more faster and strong, then if you relly on power then u are not using your "real full power", the only way to you use you true ability is driving your power trough the feelings doents matter what feelings if love, anger, hate, avarice, what matter is you convictions in this

then like others peoples said just because natsu or erza "throw some random speechs about friendship, this not "nakama power" the only time nakama power appeared was erza agains azuma while she used the tenrou arc agains azuma this was nakama power, just speak loud random speechs about friends is not a power up but their release their true power throughtthe "anger"(for the enemy) and love(for friend, family and lover interest).

again makaravo in the little anime arc of daphine makarov clear explained who natstu true power come from his "anger" like "hulk" due to him being a "fire(red)dragonslayer"(who in rpg have a chaotic nature) his true powers appear when he become more anger) this means who most of natsu victorys gonna be aways trough his anger a good exemple on the movie the guy owned natsu many times while he not was enough motivated(angered), when finally after natsu see how crazy the guy was by making the peoples on the city goes in fear and suffer, making eclair suffer and specially LUCY suffer(through eclair suffer) then his anger started to boil and increase his power to him be able to overpower the guy.

the heroes aways wins, this a very classic clich in 80 to 90% of shounens and even in western magazines like batman or superman, why no one complain how overpower batman is for a "normal human"

again for FT tags:
comedy(here is missing comedy)/fantasy/adventure/drama/action/shounen

dont have "tragedy or martial or fighting" then this means who you dont gonna see bad things happen, how many times is needed to say who mashima was clear about the ft theme before start to write:
bonds, family, friendship, heros wins, no tragedy, much more light than his previous RM work who received many bad critics about have too much drama and tragedy.

"but this is not logical" who feelings, bonds, friends, family aways are need for you wins"; you're just being a dumbass indeed shounens manga tend to overdo it however it is still partly true, if not for you then fine you dont have true friends or a good family, for me this partly work, i have true friends and good family who aways helped me when i needed and their are very important for me and aways supported me, if for you this is a "crap" then you like to be "forever alone".

second origin is not a "plot armor" was just a funny way to avoid make one or more bore chapters with training, then was more practice make a funny chapter(the celestial world party) then troll the team in the end for the sake of comedy and after this give then a compensation for the joke who is the second origin.

and finally complain for something who is part of the work since from the beginner and was clear stated by the writer is at minimum being "immature"(not to speak idiocy)

Last edited by ellessarr; 2013-03-05 at 11:52.
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Old 2013-03-05, 12:41   Link #10748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
I don't get why people are finding it so hard to accept that Erza's second origin doesn't sit right with some fans/readers/whatever.

I have no problem with Erza owning almost every one of her opponents - I stated my reason earlier. But I can see where people who are complaining that this feels like a hax. I mean, why is her second origin an active skill when it was implied (or I thought it was) that it was a passive power boost.

Erza is, for all purposes, as much a lead character in FT as Natsu, if not more. So, things like this powerup are gonna happen. Doesn't mean that it won't seem lame or not look like an ass-pull to some people.
Because it is not exactly passive. Most people don't have access to it, so you can do magic without it. You can choose to fight with some level of your magic that is not 100% already. Do you think someone is asspulling if they don't fight with all their power? Shonen does this a lot (see: DBZ). The answer is obvious: Erza holds back a lot. It's smart; prevents your opponents from knowing how strong you are, thus leading them to underestimate you. See: Minerva.

What had people upset, is that they thought they knew how something worked, and they weren't entirely correct. So it is a hate of being incorrect. Erza fooled you, me, Minerva, everyone. To fool your enemies, you must first fool your friends. We should have known something was different with Erza when she didn't writhe in pain during the unlocking.

Would I have handled it differently? Yes. But we were given Chekov's gun. I suppose you don't have to like these valid storytelling techniques, but there is nothing inherently wrong with them. So you might try to understand why the rest of us aren't blowing a gasket.
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:34   Link #10749
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What had people upset, is that they thought they knew how something worked, and they weren't entirely correct. So it is a hate of being incorrect. Erza fooled you, me, Minerva, everyone. To fool your enemies, you must first fool your friends. We should have known something was different with Erza when she didn't writhe in pain during the unlocking.
It could have been done better. I don't expect her to lose, I expect her to win in a more "reasonable" way. And you can stop being so defensive I was half jocking when I said "realease plot armor" and never said anything like "omg dropping this series" (or any comment on the series as a whole). I have the right to be critical of things even if they conform to some magical plot math.

We all might as well not have an opinion if it always has to be on only the positive* side of the scale.

* or for some series, the negative side
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:45   Link #10750
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not to mention it was clearly stated that natsu and Gajeel were using second origin against sting and rogue the main complaint about erza is the way they handled kagura in the manga at least that's my complaint
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Old 2013-03-05, 13:49   Link #10751
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Because it is not exactly passive. Most people don't have access to it, so you can do magic without it. You can choose to fight with some level of your magic that is not 100% already. Do you think someone is asspulling if they don't fight with all their power? Shonen does this a lot (see: DBZ). The answer is obvious: Erza holds back a lot. It's smart; prevents your opponents from knowing how strong you are, thus leading them to underestimate you. See: Minerva.
Then it might be that people have seen too much of that stuff and are just tired of it. Keep in mind I'm talking about this particular incident. Some of the fanbase does get bit too defensive on any criticism, which ain't healthy. Just as constant week-in week-out complaining ain't healthy - though I don't see it much on FT threads.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:19   Link #10752
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Because it is not exactly passive. Most people don't have access to it, so you can do magic without it. You can choose to fight with some level of your magic that is not 100% already. Do you think someone is asspulling if they don't fight with all their power? Shonen does this a lot (see: DBZ). The answer is obvious: Erza holds back a lot. It's smart; prevents your opponents from knowing how strong you are, thus leading them to underestimate you. See: Minerva.
.

The thing is though, I GUARANTEE that natsu or anybody else who got second origin is going to use it to use it in the upcoming fights as a power up making them bland. It seemed a lot cooler to use it as a passive boost so there was no asspulls but I guess that is too much to ask from shoen manga.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:51   Link #10753
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The thing is though, I GUARANTEE that natsu or anybody else who got second origin is going to use it to use it in the upcoming fights as a power up making them bland. It seemed a lot cooler to use it as a passive boost so there was no asspulls but I guess that is too much to ask from shoen manga.
Natsu, Gray, Lucy, Wendy, and Juvia all have been using it, and it is a passive boost. It's not going to be a case of "this opened up in the coming battles for every character who got 2nd origin to go super sayain whenever they want." because characters like Gajeel, Laxus, and Mirajane trained for their increase in power. Even assuming they got Second Origin naturally from training, they have no reason to hold back on using it like Natsu, Gray, Lucy, Wendy, and Juvia haven't been holding back. It would be quite ridiculous for Gajeel to be having a tough time with an opponent and finally defeat him, then for Natsu to be having a tough time with an opponent and handily defeat him with second origin. That would mean Natsu was fighting a vastly inferior opponent than Gajeel. Even if it did become the next "super sayajin", that was relevant and the cause of victory for all of 2-3 fights before enemies got stronger and it simply became the default battle form for those that had it. SO would suffer the same fate in short order if the series tried to go that way.

But like I said, that won't be happening. Erza's the only one that's been holding back on using it. Her releasing it doesn't mean it's active thing that needs to be turned on like Lightning-Fire mode. Her releasing it is ultimately no different than the way Laxus turned out to have been holding back against Natsu during the Festival arc. Nor is she likely to have cause to hold back in the future.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:11   Link #10754
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It could have been done better. I don't expect her to lose, I expect her to win in a more "reasonable" way. And you can stop being so defensive I was half jocking when I said "realease plot armor" and never said anything like "omg dropping this series" (or any comment on the series as a whole). I have the right to be critical of things even if they conform to some magical plot math.

We all might as well not have an opinion if it always has to be on only the positive* side of the scale.
Opinions are fine. You don't have to like things. It is only when one tries to pass off an opinionated dislike as valid criticism where it is not warranted, that we run into problems. One can dislike a hero winning over the villain. It is not okay when one claims a hero winning over the villain is stupid in and of itself. I, myself, am highly negatively opinionated on the FT movie, so it is not like I am cutting FT any slack. See my title.

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Then it might be that people have seen too much of that stuff and are just tired of it. Keep in mind I'm talking about this particular incident. Some of the fanbase does get bit too defensive on any criticism, which ain't healthy. Just as constant week-in week-out complaining ain't healthy - though I don't see it much on FT threads.
I have tried to explain before that FT is a shonen manga, and thus retains many of its trappings. I'd actually agree with you that many of the trappings are bad, but this manga, like practically every other shonen manga, is aimed at a much younger audience that eats this stuff up like candy. The genre is shifting, as you can see in FT that incorporates many things like strong female fighters, that a lot of previous shonen series lacked. Just go back and watch old GI JOE or Transformers cartoons, and then watch more modern cartoons, and you'll see things have changed for the better.

As for criticism, see my title. Criticism is good... but only if it is valid. As I said above, I am critical of the FT movie (not so much of the plot itself, but of the execution in several areas), so don't think I simply give FT a pass on everything.

You wanted people to understand why they disliked Erza activating her second origin like that... we do understand. We just didn't find it to be a major issue. At best, it is minor. So now try to understand where we are coming from: There was nothing technically wrong or bad about what happened. We were given sufficient foreshadowing that Erza was different than the others, where second origin was concerned. Erza is more of a "smart" fighter than the others, so it is understandable that she would deliberately hold back, using only enough power to do what she needs to do. Especially when she knows she's dealing with a crafty individual like Menerva.

Also, this also addresses fan complaints over Kagura being able to match Erza. So we silenced criticism on one angle, only to have fans complain the other way: Mashima can't win. But that's understandable because you can't please everyone all of the time.

So I can understand an opinion disliking the way something happened. But disliking it for following valid storytelling rules is not the right way to go about it. Just say you didn't like it, and leave it at that. I didn't like how short the Laxus/Jura fight was, and wished it had been a bit longer, but I suppose they'll add to it in the anime. I get the sense they are pushing Mashima to get to the end of the arc so they can animate it.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:13   Link #10755
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...like I said...

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I think that for Natsu and the others like him (DS, Ice Make, etc), having 2nd Origin on all the time is better since their fight pwr is based off the total sum of magic availabile to them. Erza just kept hers unactivated to use it as a reserve. She's using it in her way - now she's got a literal second wind of power with which to demolish Minerva with. Waiting until she figured out her opponents magic before curbstomping them - she did the same against Midnight. Thinking about it, this is completely within her fighting style to do so.
She rarely pulls out more than 3 of her normal armors before she whips out one that can usually take care of the job in a short amount of time. Heaven's Wheel, Black Wing, and Flight armors are the ones that she uitilizes the most in pinpointing her enemy's weaknesses. It just so happens that she was in the 'All-or-Nothing Hakama' but that isn't going to cut it against Minerva.
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Old 2013-03-05, 23:08   Link #10756
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^The way you put it sounds very cool and entertaining.

However, the way Mashima handles things makes it look horrible even though it is exactly the same thing.

Mashima doesn't seem to know how to properly build things without making them glare at you.

In all honesty a lot of problems I mentioned could've been not problems if Mashima did things differently.

The way you've put it I can see a massive potential with something extremely entertaining. However, what I've actually seen so far was a ruined version of what could be great.

In other words most of the minuses I mentioned could actually be pluses if things were done just a bit differently.

Lately Mashima tends to make everything 10 times worse than it should. That is my biggest complaint.

FT is gradually turning into SAO for me aka lots of lost potential.
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Old 2013-03-06, 08:31   Link #10757
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Quote:
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She rarely pulls out more than 3 of her normal armors before she whips out one that can usually take care of the job in a short amount of time. Heaven's Wheel, Black Wing, and Flight armors are the ones that she uitilizes the most in pinpointing her enemy's weaknesses. It just so happens that she was in the 'All-or-Nothing Hakama' but that isn't going to cut it against Minerva.
You bring up a good point. And there was actually whinging awhile back because some people felt Erza was winning every fight with her pants-and-breast-binding "armor." Now, she pulls out a different armor to win the fight, and people are still whinging about it.

As I said before, you can't please everyone. But you can please most, and judging by this forum, there are only 1 or 2 people who don't like it. The majority are fine with it. So I guess Mashima has proven why FT is so popular, because he is making something that most like. Glad he isn't listening to the incredibly small minority.
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Old 2013-03-06, 10:02   Link #10758
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Ugh, did kitten really compare us in a round-about way to the Twilight-ers...? ... And it's usually not a majority, it's just a very vocal minority that stirs up stuff like Twilight with endless hype. Not even gonna go to the whole 'Bronie' thing either...

Going back to it, Mashima can only do so much within the couple of pages he has to do per week. No all the scenes he wants to put in can fit. That's where the anime comes in, to fill in gaps where needed but we know where that's heading... There are some things that have to be left to the readers to figure out or to just draw their own conclusions. At the very least, he's not as 'fly-by-seat-of-pants' like Kubo is ... thank goodness for small miracles.

It's just a different perspective on something - I can go through and make my own 'improvements' onto Fairy Tail but I know others won't like it, saying stuff like, 'oh that's just shounen logic copout to explaining what really happened,' when all I'm doing is just letting the readers form their own ideas. It's boring and tedious to tell something to a person in exact detail (well to me it is), I'd rather let you form your own ideas, even if they are 'wrong' with what I had initially thought. Sure, Mashima could have done some things better, but that's only from our perspective. There's nothing saying that Mashima thinks that his every chapter is the greatest thing he's ever drawn or story lines were resloved perfectly. It's hard to both write and draw your own story, especially large ones - can get lost very easily. Hell, even when I brainstorm for more than 15 minutes, I get lost...

Spoiler for Just a sample:
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Old 2013-03-06, 11:43   Link #10759
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As far as I'm concerned Laxus earned his win, Gajeel earned his win (did Elfman and Cana actuaully do anything? well anyway), Erza and the whole bunch of them spend a whoping 1 minute training, if you can call groaning on your hands and knees "training." Erza in particular didn't even go though that.
If we're going by training then no niether Laxus nor Gajeel deserved to win they had 3 months training so they got the standard shonen training hax powerup rather random powerup Natsu and company got. And also Gajeel didn't win because of his training he because of a midbattle powerup.
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Old 2013-03-06, 15:32   Link #10760
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Who here is really looking forward to how the story develops? Who here loves this manga, the characters, the action, the humor, and the plot?

Who here thinks Fairy Tail is awesome? Or at least pretty damn awesome?
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