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Old 2013-03-05, 04:45   Link #2641
Keroko
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... Einhart also has tons of mana. Your point?
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:01   Link #2642
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How weak both are in the end. Look at that battle at the Alpine’s household. Nanoha handle Einhart really easy. I know they actually try to put it as if Einhart was really something but early they said Nanoha and Fate were using their limiters and this is clearly a practice so really I don’t buy seeing this incredible when I know Nanoha is not even trying. And we try to deal with the fact their battles are “amazing”. Besides is really just nitpick so is not important but stands out as another thing I see ViVid doing wrong. Besides we really never see the magic rank of anyone in ViVid.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:27   Link #2643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... Einhart also has tons of mana. Your point?
He never really has one other than to say "I don't like it".

Which is to everything in the series, honestly.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:46   Link #2644
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How weak both are in the end. Look at that battle at the Alpine’s household. Nanoha handle Einhart really easy. I know they actually try to put it as if Einhart was really something but early they said Nanoha and Fate were using their limiters and this is clearly a practice so really I don’t buy seeing this incredible when I know Nanoha is not even trying. And we try to deal with the fact their battles are “amazing”. Besides is really just nitpick so is not important but stands out as another thing I see ViVid doing wrong. Besides we really never see the magic rank of anyone in ViVid.
You're ignoring the fact that despite the limiter, Nanoha was also using the Blaster System in that match against Einhart--her power very likely dwarfed Einhart's. Combine that with the years of experience she has under her belt, then yeah--she's gonna bloody manhandle Einhart.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:58   Link #2645
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Power ups in Nanoha are weird. They made an already confuse power scale even worse when a single character has several modes that doesn't seem to add much but they change their power level, and yet we see limiters that prevent them from reah full potential but not from using their power ups.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:59   Link #2646
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You're ignoring the fact that despite the limiter, Nanoha was also using the Blaster System in that match against Einhart--her power very likely dwarfed Einhart's. Combine that with the years of experience she has under her belt, then yeah--she's gonna bloody manhandle Einhart.
Lesse, from what I recall, everyone was at the same level of output (overall) in those matches...

and Einhart's what? 12?

Nanoha has like 14 years of experience under her belt...

Yeaaaaah... I'm pretty sure that there's no way that Einhart could come close to touching Nanoha even if they were at the same level of power.
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Old 2013-03-05, 15:43   Link #2647
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Power ups in Nanoha are weird. They made an already confuse power scale even worse when a single character has several modes that doesn't seem to add much but they change their power level, and yet we see limiters that prevent them from reah full potential but not from using their power ups.
And if Einhart trashed Nanoha, we would have seen an endless stream of complaints about how it's impossible for some fresh new character to beat Nanoha.

Honestly, using "she got beaten by Nanoha" as a powerscale is kind of flimsy. Remind me, how many characters actually won against Nanoha?
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Old 2013-03-05, 15:48   Link #2648
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Honestly, using "she got beaten by Nanoha" as a powerscale is kind of flimsy. Remind me, how many characters actually won against Nanoha?
Hmm... Fate, Vita, Reinforce, Touma (then again, he dropped everyone with Divide Zero Eclipse)...
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:03   Link #2649
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He also technically would have beaten Nanoha in their fight, even if they cut it short for various reasons that ideally wouldn't have been taken seriously.

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Power ups in Nanoha are weird. They made an already confuse power scale even worse when a single character has several modes that doesn't seem to add much but they change their power level, and yet we see limiters that prevent them from reah full potential but not from using their power ups.
Do you mean Nanoha's Blaster Mode? Because that has a ton of tangible benefits, it's not like a Dragon Ball Z power-up where there's no benchmark at all (or the benefit is immediately outclassed by other villains, like a certain series you have for your avatar).
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:05   Link #2650
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Hmm... Fate, Vita, Reinforce, Touma (then again, he dropped everyone with Divide Zero Eclipse)...
Forgot Sank Kaiser Vivio.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:06   Link #2651
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All of them fighting a still inexperienced Nanoha. And got summarily stomped in round two every time Nanoha got some more experience. Except for Thoma, who in return never really "won" per se.

Hmm, I think I might seeing a pattern here. Inexperienced mage goes up against more experienced enemies she can't beat, loses, gets stronger, beats enemies.

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Forgot Sank Kaiser Vivio.
Nah, Vivio lost. She was driving Nanoha into a corner during the first half, sure, but then Nanoha made a comeback and knocked her out.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:07   Link #2652
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Do you mean Nanoha's Blaster Mode? Because that has a ton of tangible benefits, it's not like a Dragon Ball Z power-up where there's no benchmark at all (or the benefit is immediately outclassed by other villains, like a certain series you have for your avatar).
He could have meant Excellion mode which allowed the AAA rank Nanoha to fight against Reinforce (prolly around S/SS rank) evenly long enough for Hayate to overcome the programming.

I mean, it's not like the Blaster Mode let Nanoha over-whelm Dieci's S rank cannon shot with ease...

Or Blaster 3 shooting through a freaking battle ship that was producing an AMF and holding down Saint Kaiser Vivio...
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:13   Link #2653
Keroko
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Not to mention it was the only attack powerful enough to obliterate Vivio's Kaiser Armor and destroy the Relic, freeing Vivio from the ship's connection.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:26   Link #2654
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At no moment did I say Ein should be able to fight Nanoha and beat her if she was at her best form but as a way of establishing what Einhart can do in relation to the rest seeing her holding her ground with Nanoha in her finest is really showing she has skill. At least better than seeing Einhart barely keeping up with a really holding back Nanoha who is not even trying. Einhart was able to beat Nove in their first encounter and then she lost because of retarded knockout. But proof Einhart mean business (Of course that was later ruin). Is normal and cliché to introduce characters that way, they beat up an already establish character. I just say is odd to see Einhart barely keeping up with Nanoha if the idea is to show how good she is.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:31   Link #2655
Keroko
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Actually, so far the entire point of her fights seems to be to show that while Einhart is good, there's still better fighters out there.

Einhart is consistently shown to have tons of talent (such as when she figured out the unchain knuckle technique on her own after only having been shown the basic exercise) and raw strength, but lacking a lot of basic knowledge, training and experience to put that talent to good use.

Which makes sense. All her combat knowledge is based on the snips she sees in her dreams. She's basically the equivalent of someone who learned martial arts by watching Jackie Chan.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:48   Link #2656
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Plus what she learns from the dreams she practices in street fights until she came across Nove. So what she does know likely needs a lot of polish, as she had no mentor or trainer to tell her how to improve or what she was doing wrong.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:53   Link #2657
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I am not against those ideas but the way the executed things here is actually what makes it so bad. We already have story base of Vivio who will be the one with natural talent and potential and Einhart the one who actually train to best that potential in a more serious manner. But then we shift again to both learning from others who appear right out of the blue who did just that. So Einhart who was the one Vivio was looking up to is now reduce to the same level as Vivio and they both look up to fighters like Sieg and the rest who are still inferior to Nanoha and the rest.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:50   Link #2658
Keroko
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Nanoha and the rest are end-game level and are noted by everyone to be absurdly strong, even by Nanohaverse standards. They really shouldn't be used to call the Vivid cast weak. At all.

Also, the story isn't about "Vivio who will be the one with natural talent and potential" but "Vivio who will climb to the top despite her lack of potential."

Einhart, meanwhile, is the one with tons of potential, but is clueless how to use it right.
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Old 2013-03-05, 18:04   Link #2659
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Well I do call the cast on ViVid weak because of the others. Really, how they are any add to the cast when they can’t hold their own without the old cast? Besides for that matter why Vivio has to lack potential with all her story and considering who her mother is? This was about her first adventures and yet so far she does so little and is overall pointless to the story. Aside from starting this she proof we can take her out or any of the other girls and barely affect what is going on.

So really there is no reason for Vivio to lack potential and Einhart is the only one who actually had a clear goal at the beginning of the story. Just that for no reason we decide to forget that and go with this… thing that doesn’t seems to remember where is going. I normally like that but here it doesn’t come out of a sensation that this is a good story and really more like this is just going at random with no rhyme or reason. Also carrying along a ton of people that just stand there in the background to fill the page I guess.
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Old 2013-03-05, 18:14   Link #2660
Keroko
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Well I do call the cast on ViVid weak because of the others. Really, how they are any add to the cast when they can’t hold their own without the old cast?
Because this story isn't about the old cast? I mean, that's like saying you can't have batman stories because superman is much more powerful.

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Besides for that matter why Vivio has to lack potential with all her story and considering who her mother is? This was about her first adventures and yet so far she does so little and is overall pointless to the story. Aside from starting this she proof we can take her out or any of the other girls and barely affect what is going on.
Yes, the lack of Vivio focus is one of the main flaws of Vivid. It's the same problem Nanoha had, really. Titular characters in the Nanoha franchise seem to have a problem with assuming lead character roles.

Though once again, you use the words "we can take them out and barely affect what is going on" too quickly.
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