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Old 2013-03-05, 18:35   Link #2661
Sansker
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Because is truth. Even when Batman lacks Superman’s powers he shows that he also has skills that allow him to keep being a key member in groups like the Justice League where some of their members can reduce cities in to rubbles with their bare hands. So I am saying that the new cast needs to show its own great potential and not be shadow like that by the old cast who should not appear at all if this isn’t about them or just assume supporting roles. And still Nanoha’s name is in the title, so I do expect to see her in this thing.

Also that phrase I use it a lot because it really applies here. Take out Vivio, Chantez, Victoria, the Sword girl, Miura, Rio, Corona, Lutecia, the Witch Girl and tell me: that will affect in any way how Einhart and Sieg connected to each other and decide to talk about it? Or do the same with all the interactions and eliminate the rest of the cast of the equation. Really affects nothing because none of these events are connected, link or are going toward something else. So yes, I say: “we can take them out and barely affect what is going on" because that is what we get.
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Old 2013-03-05, 18:57   Link #2662
Keroko
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You pretty proved my point with the Superman/Batman thing. Batman isn't as powerful as Superman, yet he has his own place in the DC universe.

Same thing for the Vivid cast. They don't need to be as powerful as the old cast, they just need to carve out their own little niche in the Nanohaverse.

Also, given how without Vivio, Lio, Corona and Lutecia, Einhart wouldn't have participated in the tournament in the first place... yes, yes I would safely say that taking them out would affect Sieg and Einhart's encounter.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:07   Link #2663
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Yes but what I was saying is that the cast in ViVid doesn’t seem to gain any spot. They are just there, being themselves, without story, arc or any kind of objective and we are suppose to be impress about what they do but then Nanoha comes in and she can bested all in two seconds and I realize I just lost my time seeing a bunch of girls with nothing special about them. Try to give them something is what I mean.

Also no, none at all. Sieg and Ein didn’t even had to meet in the tournament. Einhart could happen to just find her while attacking people at random or target her because she is such a good well know fighter and then had their scene together. In no moment the tournament is needed to them to actually find each other. And even if the tournament is Einhart could be told about it by Nove, or read about it in the papers or something. I mean this is like a really huge event so is no excuse for Einhart to not hear about it somehow without the other mention it. And even if she needs the others mention this thing I already say how that is their only contribution to this thing so really is nothing at all. You see is not Vivio having anything to do with this because this thing is about Einhart and her own ancestors memories and pain, so really Vivio has nothing to say or do in this situation and the same goes by the rest. Saying they are need for this even in any way is like saying we need the referring who declares the winner of the match, because without him there will be no winner. And I mean that specific referring, not any other. He is just filling a role that anything can take, so really Vivio’s role in Ein and Sieg’s moment is like that: nothing really important.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:10   Link #2664
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Again I feel it's ironic you're making these kinds of complaints while also being a fan of Bleach.

Considering the actual plot seems to be starting now, I'd say the tournament was merely a convenient way of making sure the characters met each-other: some never would have without it, and there's no way of telling what any of them will do in the story at this stage.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:22   Link #2665
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So we spend 48 chapters of introduction over 3 years and just now are we getting the plot? This is just a simple manga about magical girls not The Lord of the Rings. Either I need to assume this was bad writing or that they just waste my time with a ton of sequences that are pointless to the overall conclusion of the story. I am not calling this manga good one way or the other.

Also I could defend Bleach but we have another forum for that. I just say that overall Bleach is not so boring as ViVid and while it might have a cast just as large Bleach is now 10 years old and has more than 500 chapters and even in the same number if chapters ViVid has, Bleach did it in six months and was way ahead on story and introduction of characters. But lets not compare this further. We will lost focus.

Besides even if I take your word and say is right, just because Bleach has other problems means that the ones in ViVid will just go away.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:35   Link #2666
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Yes but what I was saying is that the cast in ViVid doesn’t seem to gain any spot. They are just there, being themselves, without story, arc or any kind of objective and we are suppose to be impress about what they do but then Nanoha comes in and she can bested all in two seconds and I realize I just lost my time seeing a bunch of girls with nothing special about them. Try to give them something is what I mean.
... Yes? That's kind of what it means to be light hearted. No serious world saving plot. It's a story about a bunch of girls and their passion for martial arts with a bit of Ancient Belka voodoo mixed in. You may not like such a story, but that doesn't make it bad.

And yes, Nanoha could just swoop in and own the entire stadium, but again, just because superman could clean the entirety of Gotham on his weekend off doesn't mean all batman comics are terrible.

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Also no, none at all. Sieg and Ein didn’t even had to meet in the tournament. Einhart could happen to just find her while attacking people at random or target her because she is such a good well know fighter and then had their scene together.
Oh look, things changed.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:55   Link #2667
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... Yes? That's kind of what it means to be light hearted. No serious world saving plot. It's a story about a bunch of girls and their passion for martial arts with a bit of Ancient Belka voodoo mixed in. You may not like such a story, but that doesn't make it bad.
I do like such stories. I dislike bad written and poorly done attempts like ViVid feels like. I do not care it doesn't have a serious plot. I like several animes that were not about fighting or wars among evil and good empires. Epic is great but I like simplest stuff which is not what ViVid is doing. I will like to see that passion but the problem is again execution. You talk about passion for fighting and yet we never really construct such passion. We are told they are passion and they act excited about it but you never really know why. They are just happy about this crap and they never really have any motive.

We didnít construct this simple story to be with just a passion over a sport. Showing us the characters training, overcoming problems and really just keep it going despite the hardships that they might endure. So when the freaking tournament comes around we already see and perceive the hard work they put in to this and that passion that doesnít fall as a heartless made up happy looking attitude they actually give us here. So when they lose we do realize that this means a lot for them. Instead we get a bunch of boring ass moments when they are just smiling and talking happy aboyt how awesome everything is and how exited they are without a single moment when they just stop and share why they care or if this means more than just a freaking way to lost time.

You light hearted doesnít translated as ďheartless storiesĒ and really is the lack of emotion that everything here is fill with that actually turns it down. At is best the manga was in the first moment when characters react like people to the impulses they faced. Now they take this light, friendly, consequence free, boring and long tournament and try to pretend there is some kind of emotion involve when all over this lacks any kind of ground.

Is the bad execution was make a good idea boring and bad. So no, is not me not liking this type of stories is me not liking this particular one because is just done with so little merits that doesnít even know where is going.


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And yes, Nanoha could just swoop in and own the entire stadium, but again, just because superman could clean the entirety of Gotham on his weekend off doesn't mean all batman comics are terrible.
No, but again, Batman holds his own ground. None of the ViVid characters holds anything. They are just there and are so weak they are ignore in the next incarnation of the franchise.


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Oh look, things changed.

Not they didn't. The irrelevant details change but the important parts remains the same. In the end what matters is that Ein and Sieg connect because of their past and memories and ancestors. Where and when really comes out as details that are irrelevant to this important elements. So no, nothing changes at the core. Is like saying the story will be different if Nanoha was right handed instead of left handed, or if her final attack was call "Stars Breaker" and was green for some reasons instead of being "Star Light Breaker" and be pink. Or that the story will be different if instead of fighting over the city Nanoha and Fate fight in the forest. Those are details that doesn't add anything and work in background. So no, nothing changes.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:05   Link #2668
Justin_Brett
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I just say that overall Bleach is not so boring as ViVid
I hope you're just talking about the first arc when you say that, sir.

Shit, call me when the villain of ViVid dregs up a bunch of named mooks just so all the good characters can have a fight to themselves.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:06   Link #2669
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Also I could defend Bleach but we have another forum for that. I just say that overall Bleach is not so boring as ViVid and while it might have a cast just as large Bleach is now 10 years old and has more than 500 chapters and even in the same number if chapters ViVid has, Bleach did it in six months and was way ahead on story and introduction of characters.
About 50 chapters of intro, I believe. And they'd only introduced... six major characters or so? Out of the... 20? 30? I lost count. Chapter51 was when the Soul society arc got started, which lasted... about 128 chapters?

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I do like such stories. I dislike bad written and poorly done attempts like ViVid feels like. I do not care it doesn't have a serious plot. I like several animes that were not about fighting or wars among evil and good empires. Epic is great but I like simplest stuff which is not what ViVid is doing. I will like to see that passion but the problem is again execution. You talk about passion for fighting and yet we never really construct such passion. We are told they are passion and they act excited about it but you never really know why. They are just happy about this crap and they never really have any motive.
.... Then you clearly haven't been reading the manga, because motivation for the various characters has been explained.

Vivio: Wants to grow strong and make her mother proud.
Corona: She's lagging behind the others in the physical department, which drives her competitive spirit because she wants to walk by their side, not behind.
Einhart: The entire dark past shtick, now combined with a strange fascination at finding out fighting can be fun.
Miura: Living a life of constant failure, she finally found something she is talented in.
Hell, even Shante got a reason: She's grateful to Shach's help and wants to gain attention for the church and spread the Kaiser faith.

The only real exception is Lio. We don't know that much about her motivations yet. I hope we'll find out during her fight.

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No, but again, Batman holds his own ground. None of the ViVid characters holds anything. They are just there and are so weak they are ignore in the next incarnation of the franchise.
Yes, because the next story is a Superman story, not a batman story. This isn't hard logic, sansk. Power =/= good story, yet you insist it must be.

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Not they didn't. The irrelevant details change but the important parts remains the same. In the end what matters is that Ein and Sieg connect because of their past and memories and ancestors. Where and when really comes out as details that are irrelevant to this important elements. So no, nothing changes at the core. Is like saying the story will be different if Nanoha was right handed instead of left handed, or if her final attack was call "Stars Breaker" and was green for some reasons instead of being "Star Light Breaker" and be pink. Or that the story will be different if instead of fighting over the city Nanoha and Fate fight in the forest. Those are details that doesn't add anything and work in background. So no, nothing changes.
Bullshit. You completely rewrote Ein and Sieg's first encounter. You changed things, Sansk. End of line.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:32   Link #2670
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About 50 chapters of intro, I believe. And they'd only introduced... six major characters or so? Out of the... 20? 30? I lost count. Chapter51 was when the Soul society arc got started, which lasted... about 128 chapters?



.... Then you clearly haven't been reading the manga, because motivation for the various characters has been explained.


Vivio: Wants to grow strong and make her mother proud.
Corona: She's lagging behind the others in the physical department, which drives her competitive spirit because she wants to walk by their side, not behind.
Einhart: The entire dark past shtick, now combined with a strange fascination at finding out fighting can be fun.
Miura: Living a life of constant failure, she finally found something she is talented in.
Hell, even Shante got a reason: She's grateful to Shach's help and wants to gain attention for the church and spread the Kaiser faith.

The only real exception is Lio. We don't know that much about her motivations yet. I hope we'll find out during her fight.
All that is nice and good but you forget something. The stories are not about them at all. Their actions are not helping such goals and some of them are not even hinted slightly. We could make this about Vivio trying to make her mom proud, and by the way she says she wants power to protect those she loves. She mentions this in her second fight with Einhart. But we never focus any of this objectives and how this tournament is helping them develop. You see, we canít just learn a character motivation two pages before we see the emotional outcome of such struggle.

We didnít have any build up to any of those character motivations. We just read about them after or right before we see them hit so with that in mind the impact is really diminish. Worse by the fact there is not a clear goal they can be walking towards gaining to help you care. Like they need to win to have the money of the price and fix everything back home. So even when they give you a weak explanation they fail to make it matter because I just learn right now about it and nothing really hinted. This is bad writing at is finest when you donít care to build up emotion. I have seen episodes of the Simpson do this simple task better than ViVid. And is really nothing that hard to do.

You see all of those motivations are in no way accomplished by having them fighting in the tournament at all. Vivio really wants to protect people so she should not care about the tournament, Einhart wanted to kill Vivio and Ixpellia but later just forget about it and lost any kind of goal, Corona was like Teana: we never work her inferior complex until they bring that up for no reason when they already show more than capable of keeping up with their companions and friends without problems, and do I even need to mention Shantez? We donít know what the hell the Kaiser faith is so way to see a character working out to do something that is not explain or even hinted. The Church already has a large power an reach, if Shante wanted more people she could go to read the ďKaiser BibleĒ to the people in the stadium rather than just get her ass handle to her in the arena. And MiuraÖ again, make up in the last second without any reason of why she care or why she is so invested. You say because she leave a constant failure life but we just see her being bad at training not at everything and we are never told why she will like to fight more, she is just good and she goes along for the ride.

Bleach is another thing. They didn't take 3 years to just get started.

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Yes, because the next story is a Superman story, not a batman story. This isn't hard logic, sansk. Power =/= good story, yet you insist it must be.
This is bad because is bad done not because they lack power. If they donít have anything special in their stories, characters and power then is bad. But the first two will make the last one pointless. But this is about fighting so yes, they are not as good as the rest.


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Bullshit. You completely rewrote Ein and Sieg's first encounter. You changed things, Sansk. End of line.
No I didnít. They encounter, fight and connect because of their past. All happens as it happen in the manga. It didnít happen in the same place, they might lost the crowd andÖ how that affects the encounter in any significant way? You are missing the point by looking at details that doesnít really hold any value and take them as key essential moments of the plot.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:36   Link #2671
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If you look at things in that shallow a way, no change to a story is significant.

If Einhart had met Sieglinde before she met Vivio, the two probably would have just pummeled each-other.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:39   Link #2672
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No I didnít. They encounter, fight and connect because of their past. All happens as it happen in the manga. It didnít happen in the same place, they might lost the crowd andÖ how that affects the encounter in any significant way? You are missing the point by looking at details that doesnít really hold any value and take them as key essential moments of the plot.
Yeah you did. You went and put Sieglinde into a situation that normally wouldn't have happened. Einhart never knew that Sieglinde was a Belkan King ancestor like herself, and from what we know of her, she's not the type to take part in street brawls, given her condition.

Let's say we take Vivio and company out of the equation and leave Einhart in, like you were suggesting. What happens is that Einhart never meets Sieglinde in the tournament and thus never learns of her connection to Olivie and the past. Einhart went after Nove to find Vivio because Vivio is publicly known as the Sankt Kaiser. Sieglinde is not publicly known as the descendant of Jeremiah.

Without Nove and Vivio, Einhart never enters the DSAA Inter-Middle. Without Nove and Vivio, Einhart never even finds out about the DSAA Inter-Middle, because she's too busy training herself and beating the snot out of people in the streets. That much we know.

By putting Sieglinde into a situation where Einhart would meet her in public, you've changed the story. Simple as that.
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:53   Link #2673
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No, in bad stories like this one, changes on the elements doesnít affect the story because the elements donít complement each other. They are just together for no real reasons other than the guy who writes this likes that. Now some things can be add to the mix in many stories but when I can remove characters with that much freedom to the point it doesnít matter I call them unnecessary or expendable. Things that are there but you can live without them.

And again I change nothing on Ein and Siegís moment. Einhart could hear about the freaking tournament because she hear it from a guy she beat up and find a poster or come across a TV with information. The reason why she is told by the others is because the author didnít think about it until later. Is obvious this thing is a large, really well know event that you will be need to live in a cave in some non-administrated world in order to ignore about this. So why I am not allow to assume things but I should accept you assuming thing about how Einhart reacts when she is alone?

You see all of those things are you own way to see how things will change without realizing that the characters can still encounter and have their moment without this elements and will have the same impact it has here. When they construct a better story with elements that really interconnect this changes will be bad because I am taking from the elements of a larger story or changing a character story arc. But if you look at Einhart her arc starts with the fight with Sieg so how she reach that place is not as important and the fight itself. Because there is when this things happen. So I say the way there is irrelevant and the other characters have little to do with this that they might not be involve at all.

You are missing the point here. What I mean is that if the thing that matters is the fight, then how this happens doesnít really matter because we wait to be in the fight to create the story. Is not like we see Einhart realizing SIeg is Jeremiah before their battle and start to have flashbacks and be confuse about things, the has this in the fight itself. So they didnít bother to construct the arc and just went to told everything in a few pages and panels. So why it should matter how Sieg and Ein fights when what matters is that they fight?
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:56   Link #2674
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Keep moving those goalposts, buddy. Eventually they'll have to get tired, right?
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:59   Link #2675
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Keep moving those goalposts, buddy. Eventually they'll have to get tired, right?
Well, if you can't do an argument right, you need to keep changing your tune until no one can refute you (usually by giving up).
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Old 2013-03-05, 20:59   Link #2676
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Only when you get actual answers to my arguments instead of trying to deny the whole thing by saying I move the goalposts.

I notice how you don't and just use now this to deny my points which still hold up to what I say first: I can take elements in and out and change little to nothing all things consider.
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Old 2013-03-05, 21:01   Link #2677
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There's no way to refute 'It doesn't matter if changing how two characters meet would change the story, because I say it's bad'.

Especially since that's not even the point.
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Old 2013-03-05, 21:06   Link #2678
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No what I say was that I can change the background, including characters, and no affect the encounter or the little story going in such encounter. Pointing out how the elements in the story are not link together as a proper story and are really exchangeable with little effect on what is going on each fight. And because we lack any overall plot I can really not see a point of anything that is happening because the story doesn’t have a narrative line to follow or a goal to hit.

I say its bad, yes, but I am saying why.
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Old 2013-03-05, 21:08   Link #2679
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But, wouldn't changing how two characters meet in this franchise change a lot of things?

I mean, if Fate and Nanoha met under friendlier circumstances...

Or what if Chrono decided to blast both Nanoha and Fate instead of blocking them?

What if Nanoha had met Hayate and the Wolkenritter between S1 and A's?

What if Subaru had gotten rescued by someone else?

What if Vivio had never met Nanoha and Co before Jail got her?
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Old 2013-03-05, 21:08   Link #2680
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Only when you get actual answers to my arguments instead of trying to deny the whole thing by saying I move the goalposts.
Except every time we DO give you actual answers, you just say "No you're wrong because I don't like it" and then move the damn goalposts to cover the fact we proved you wrong.

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I notice how you don't and just use now this to deny my points which still hold up to what I say first: I can take elements in and out and change little to nothing all things consider.
Except if you remove or add elements you change the story. In fact if you add or remove the right element, you'll change the whole thing drastically, like you did with the Einhart/Sieglinde thing. Your "example" drastically changes Sieglinde's entire characterization and completely negates all the development Einhart's made thus far.
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