AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Psycho-Pass

Notices

View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 15 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 21 42.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 14.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 12.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-06, 02:40   Link #161
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Being a serial killer allows you to bypass the Sibyl reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The system could not catch serial killers because the system doesn't work.
See and this is why your arguments just keep falling apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
you are thinking just like Sybil
Also this. I'm done. Bye.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 03:22   Link #162
Terizent
Nonsense!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I see no evidence of that with Yayoi. None whatsoever. I see little evidence of that with Kagari.
In the 2nd volume of the PP novelization, Yayoi and Kagari start laughing when they see a homeless man twist the necks of pigeons for food.

I really like Kagari, but it's painfully obvious that he is abnormally detached; he literally does not give a single shit when his coworkers fight, grins when he sees dead bodies and thinks it would be a fun idea to run mobs over.

So is Yayoi, that's the reason she's in the background so much. She doesn't really seem to care about anything, in fact, she doesn't even care when Kogami went rogue.

Now, I'm not saying that the two are 100% going to commit serious crimes if they were let out in society, but there's clearly something wrong with them. The incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari isn't exactly justified, but you have to agree that there is a higher than normal chance of them becoming criminals.
__________________
"Haha! But you're a good guy, right?" he chuckled.
Prologue---xiii
Terizent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 05:11   Link #163
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terizent View Post
In the 2nd volume of the PP novelization, Yayoi and Kagari start laughing when they see a homeless man twist the necks of pigeons for food.

I really like Kagari, but it's painfully obvious that he is abnormally detached; he literally does not give a single shit when his coworkers fight, grins when he sees dead bodies and thinks it would be a fun idea to run mobs over.

So is Yayoi, that's the reason she's in the background so much. She doesn't really seem to care about anything, in fact, she doesn't even care when Kogami went rogue.

Now, I'm not saying that the two are 100% going to commit serious crimes if they were let out in society, but there's clearly something wrong with them. The incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari isn't exactly justified, but you have to agree that there is a higher than normal chance of them becoming criminals.
Are you a law-abiding citizen? Go and spend two years in prison for no reason whatsoever. Chances are good you'll start behaving like a criminal when you're done.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 05:21   Link #164
Quadratic
SIBYL salesman
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So basically, you're expecting 100% concrete proof of a negative. You realize that it's practically impossible to prove a negative, right?

Besides, why should the onus of proof be entirely on the Sibyl critics? Why shouldn't any of that onus be on the Sibyl defenders? In fact, if anything, the onus of proof ought to be on Sibyl. After all, Sibyl is what is making claims here. In this case, Sibyl is claiming that Yayoi and Kagari are latent criminals.

Well, through 19 episodes of Psycho-Pass (which is a perfectly good sample size of character moments to work with), is there any reason to think that Yayoi and Kagari are likely to become serious criminals if not kept under the thumb of Sibyl?

I see no evidence of that with Yayoi. None whatsoever. I see little evidence of that with Kagari.

So it's perfectly reasonable to question just how justified is the incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari, especially when we know that Sibyl has a subjective human element to its judgements, and isn't purely mechanical/AI in nature. And it's perfectly reasonable to take the position that, based on the evidence we have to work with so far, Yayoi and Kagari were wrongly incarcerated.


And if Yayoi and Kagari were wrongly incarcerated, then that means that it's perfectly possible for anybody to be wrongly incarcerated (or killed) by Sibyl.
Fair enough, but Yayoi and Kagari lacked a lot of screen time to get any important points about them, so trying to make an argument based on assumptions on them doesn't really hold much weight. Just to note again, there have been some good arguments against Sibyl, I just don't think these ones are that great to make a point get across.

Aside from the interesting bits Terizent raised, we know that there have been hints on them having some disturbing mindsets:
Yayoi isn't disturbed eating while Akane and Shion discussed some disturbing things.
Shion: "She's into more violent and passionate stuff".
...and we know nothing else really on proving or disproving her being a latent criminal.

Kagari had no qualms with running over everyone during the riots.


While I don't really like playing the what-if game, for a purely speculative arguments:
Who knows if Yayoi would have joined Rina and become a terrorist had Sibyl not arrested her and Kogami convinced her on the side of justice (or power...I can't 100% remember what smooth words he used to convince her).
We don't know whether everyone gets a CC reading at aged 5, or whether Kagari did something special to get a reading done in the first place.
But again, these arguments holds as much weight as "and if they don't commit a crime?" due to no clear explanation on what happened to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Nope. What I meant was that Sybil neutered the ability of the police officers to make decisions by forcing everyone to use Sybil to decide gilty or innocence. The fact that the reading was bypassed is NOT the point. The point is that Sybyl knows the reading can be bypassed and yet still use it ANYWAY. They are using a broken means to judge people, because they need to pretend Sybil can't be wrong.
You just discarded the Chief's explanation (ep 13) that the purpose of enforcers over robots are to stop those flaws.
Saying it's broken just because it can't comprehend the one in one million isn't broken. That's like saying Newtonian physics is broken because it can't explain general relativity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Because maintaining faith in Sybil is the only thing keeping the country together. Everyone is living in a lie.
Yes, and that's a better argument.
But saying that, they also said they're the only country with laws, which we don't really know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about. You are transfixed on the Sybil system and nothing else. Which means you are thinking just like Sybil; you are not seeing the forest for the trees.
The system could not catch serial killers because the system doesn't work. Why Sybil want him caught alive and incorporated into the system is irrelevant; what matters is that the laws in the system is papered over.
I have no idea what you're talking about because you're not clarifying your point properly.
The system alone cannot prevent crimes by people who have unique ideologies.
Again, I have no idea if you're just equating all people with unique ideologies = serial killers or all people with unique ideologies = Makishima or what.
The Spookie Boogie impersonator, the hunter, the schoolgirl artist are your "common everyday" serial killer, Makishima is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Sybil need to pretend nothing is wrong, because it refuses to reflect on its own flaws. No, adding new brains won't fix it; it wants to add new brains because it is the only thing it WANTS to do. They want a new brain to join them not because it is the right solution, but because it is the only acceptable solution that was desired for Sybil.
What exactly do you mean by the right solution and the acceptable solution? I don't know what this means.

Let's wait and see what Akane's role will be with Sibyl and whether she'll decide to fix it or not.
Quadratic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 05:44   Link #165
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
What exactly do you mean by the right solution and the acceptable solution? I don't know what this means.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Sybil only wants to do one thing; adds to itself with new brains. It is the only acceptable "answer" to all its problems and flaws.

The real solution is the dumping of the Sybil system and restore checks and balances with a transparent government. But Sybil can't do that; it's priority is not a working system, but a system where it holds absolute power.

The right solution is the dismantling of Sybil. But Sybil will not do so. So someone else would have to do it.

My point is that too many in this thread takes it at face value that "once Sybil got Makishima's brain, everything would be fine". When there is no proof that it would make Sybil any better. All we have is Sybil's claims. And we know Sybil can't be trusted.

Quote:
Yes, and that's a better argument.
But saying that, they also said they're the only country with laws, which we don't really know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
THAT, we know, has to be complete rubbish. There are functional web server hosts overseas, which means other nations have modern working technology. No matter how you might have previously thought about the outside world, we know for sure it isn't Mad Max out there. We are given more and more signs that the boarder is designed not to protect the citizens, but to protect Sybil. That once the citizens know what the outside world is really like, Sybil will no longer have power over the population.

The whole point of oats is the Japan had managed to be self-sufficient in food. This allowed the country to be isolated. If they lose the crop, they would have to trade for food... Which means there IS food in the outside world to trade. Which means the outside world isn't as scary as Sybil likes to imply.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 07:07   Link #166
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
But saying that, they also said they're the only country with laws, which we don't really know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
People REALLY need to consider bias and context for this kinda thing.

A collective of 250 brains that rule with complete power by scanning the mental state of its citizens and determining whether they should be medicated, killed, and what job positions they should have, is so authoritarian that it's going to look at any other kind of government as anarchy.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 07:19   Link #167
Quadratic
SIBYL salesman
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
My point is that too many in this thread takes it at face value that "once Sybil got Makishima's brain, everything would be fine". When there is no proof that it would make Sybil any better. All we have is Sybil's claims. And we know Sybil can't be trusted.
I personally wouldn't argue "everything would be fine". It makes Sibyl itself more knowledgable, but doesn't necessarily imply it would improve society's current state nor does it make it worst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
THAT, we know, has to be complete rubbish. There are functional web server hosts overseas, which means other nations have modern working technology. No matter how you might have previously thought about the outside world, we know for sure it isn't Mad Max out there. We are given more and more signs that the boarder is designed not to protect the citizens, but to protect Sybil. That once the citizens know what the outside world is really like, Sybil will no longer have power over the population.

The whole point of oats is the Japan had managed to be self-sufficient in food. This allowed the country to be isolated. If they lose the crop, they would have to trade for food... Which means there IS food in the outside world to trade. Which means the outside world isn't as scary as Sybil likes to imply.
It's not Mad Max, but it probably has its own set of issues otherwise why bother mentioning of inflow of refugees then since the outside is, what, safer?
You can thank the writers for being bad at providing a full explanation because they haven't exactly shown whether Japan is worst, same or better than the rest of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
People REALLY need to consider bias and context for this kinda thing.

A collective of 250 brains that rule with complete power by scanning the mental state of its citizens and determining whether they should be medicated, killed, and what job positions they should have, is so authoritarian that it's going to look at any other kind of government as anarchy.
Really? Is it implied somewhere in this show that a country with more authoritative power means that no other country is ruled by law because Sibyl is biased?
No, thinking you're a god is biased. Saying "no other nation is ruled by law" is the story saying "no other nation is ruled by law".
Quadratic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 07:46   Link #168
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 34
Quote:
Saying "no other nation is ruled by law" is the story saying "no other nation is ruled by law".
The STORY saying it?

Oh, no... That's not "story" speaking. That's Sybil's words.

One has to able to tell when a source is trustworthy or not.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 09:05   Link #169
Triple_R
Ho Ho Honoka!
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terizent View Post
In the 2nd volume of the PP novelization, Yayoi and Kagari start laughing when they see a homeless man twist the necks of pigeons for food.
We're talking about the Psycho-Pass anime here. Why are you bringing up the novelization?

Psycho-Pass is anime original, so the anime story should be judged on its own. Not everybody who watches Psycho-Pass is also going to read the Psycho-Pass novelization.


Quote:
I really like Kagari, but it's painfully obvious that he is abnormally detached; he literally does not give a single shit when his coworkers fight, grins when he sees dead bodies and thinks it would be a fun idea to run mobs over.
I'm sure being treated like a criminal from the age of five, all on the basis of some mysterious mental scan, would turn most people into folks who "do not give a shit".


Quote:
So is Yayoi,
Actually, no, that's not true. Yayoi went out of her way to comfort that one girl at the end of the Oryo arc.


Quote:
... in fact, she doesn't even care when Kogami went rogue.
Perhaps she's silently rooting for him, but knows that to state so openly would piss off Gino.

But even if that's not the case, one coworker not caring a great deal about another is hardly a sign of latent criminality.


Quote:

Now, I'm not saying that the two are 100% going to commit serious crimes if they were let out in society, but there's clearly something wrong with them. The incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari isn't exactly justified, but you have to agree that there is a higher than normal chance of them becoming criminals.
Kagari has a certain edge to him. I suppose that might make him somewhat more likely than your average person to become a criminal.

Yayoi... No, I don't agree that there is a higher than normal chance of her becoming criminal. Actually, I find it remarkable that she's handled what's happened in her life as well as she has. I'd expect somebody like her to be full of hatred and resentment for the world. Yet she doesn't appear to. At worst, she's perhaps been numbed a bit by it all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Saying "no other nation is ruled by law" is the story saying "no other nation is ruled by law".
No, that's the leader of a country comparing his country favorably to other countries. Shocking, I know.

Based on the Hyper-Oats strategy of bringing down Sybil, there must be nations outside of Sybil that are well-organized enough to import mass quantities of food into Japan. A truly lawless country would simply not have the wherewithal to engage in the degree of international trade necessary to literally save another country from starvation.


Roger Rambo is likely right here - In the eyes of a country that attempts to catch criminals before they can commit crimes, a different country that goes by that old-fashioned method of waiting for crimes to be reported, apprehending the suspect, trying him in court, having a presumption of innocence, etc... likely seems like a "lawless" or even "barabaric" country.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-06 at 09:17.
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 09:36   Link #170
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Yes, and that's a better argument.
But saying that, they also said they're the only country with laws, which we don't really know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
That's actually an outright lie. Japan doesn't operate by the rule of law: witness what happened to Kagari, and how they planned to deal with Makishima. Since the Sibyl System lied about the state of Japan, they could just as easily be lying about the state of the rest of the world as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Let's wait and see what Akane's role will be with Sibyl and whether she'll decide to fix it or not.
Akane is supposed to be the Sibyl System's new pawn. Her story arc from here on should be pretty obvious.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 13:05   Link #171
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Akane is supposed to be the Sibyl System's new pawn. Her story arc from here on should be pretty obvious.
Despite it being "obvious", would you care to enlighten "retarded" little old me?

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-03-06 at 13:31.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 15:17   Link #172
Chiaki_chan
Kubo GO TO HELL
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: with Maki-sama
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terizent View Post
In the 2nd volume of the PP novelization, Yayoi and Kagari start laughing when they see a homeless man twist the necks of pigeons for food.

I really like Kagari, but it's painfully obvious that he is abnormally detached; he literally does not give a single shit when his coworkers fight, grins when he sees dead bodies and thinks it would be a fun idea to run mobs over.

So is Yayoi, that's the reason she's in the background so much. She doesn't really seem to care about anything, in fact, she doesn't even care when Kogami went rogue.

Now, I'm not saying that the two are 100% going to commit serious crimes if they were let out in society, but there's clearly something wrong with them. The incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari isn't exactly justified, but you have to agree that there is a higher than normal chance of them becoming criminals.
novel??? you say manga ? I don't know, there was a novel that is in English?
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic211239_32.gif
Chiaki_chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 16:04   Link #173
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Despite it being "obvious", would you care to enlighten "retarded" little old me?
-Girl is invested into system
-Girl gains authority/power in system
-Girl learns horrible secret/is abused by system
-Girl uses her information/power to fight against system

It's pretty much standard cyberpunk story B.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 16:11   Link #174
RollingPenguin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
-Girl is invested into system
-Girl gains authority/power in system
-Girl learns horrible secret/is abused by system
-Girl uses her information/power to fight against system

It's pretty much standard cyberpunk story B.
Having seen spoilers for next episode,yeah I dont think that is gonna happen.
RollingPenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 16:25   Link #175
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
-Girl is invested into system
-Girl gains authority/power in system
-Girl learns horrible secret/is abused by system
-Girl uses her information/power to fight against system

It's pretty much standard cyberpunk story B.
Having not seen spoilers for next episode, I somehow doubt that's going to happen.

I'm sorry, but I'm not so naive to put everything in little categories. And I'm -especially- not so naive that a story as complex as this would go for a simple conclusion like this. No wonder I couldn't tell what you were thinking.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 16:34   Link #176
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Really? Is it implied somewhere in this show that a country with more authoritative power means that no other country is ruled by law because Sibyl is biased?
No, thinking you're a god is biased. Saying "no other nation is ruled by law" is the story saying "no other nation is ruled by law".
Quadratic...you DO understand that just because a character in a story says something doesn't mean that the story is saying that's correct, right? Just cause the Sybil brain is saying something extreme about the rest of the world (It's ruled by anarchy) doesn't necessarily mean in story universe that's objectively true.

...and going by your first statement, I don't think you remotely understood what I was saying. So I'll try to be more clear.


When Sybil claims that it is the only nation on earth ruled by "law", what exactly does Sybil mean by "law"? Well it probably means something similar to how it runs Japan. Where Sybil personally exercises influence and control over every single one of it's citizens. Sybil exercises a tremendous amount of "law" over its citizens, from determining if they should be medicated, imprisoned, and even what careers they'll pursue. To Sybil, yielding that level of control over a population is "law".


Now think about this. If Sybil thinks that controlling and influencing the minutia of almost every aspect of its citizens lives is the rule of law, what would Sybil think of a country that didn't do those things? If Sybil defines "rule of law" as a clinical pseudo mind reading police state...then wouldn't the absence of the clinical pseudo mind reading police state be inferred to be anarchy, regardless of what kind of government it had?
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 17:51   Link #177
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Maybe you were a bit put-off by the fact that Sibyl turned out to be a bunch of brains with a God-complex, but you forget that the way they run things is based on logical calculations meant to determine the best and efficient method to maintain order. THIS is probably what they meant by "A country ruled by law". One where murderers and rapists actually get locked up rather than roam free.

Also, given the context in which the chief said that phrase, they really have no reason to lie.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 19:29   Link #178
Kismet-chan
The Chaotic Dreamer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a cruel yet beautiful world
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
-Girl is invested into system
-Girl gains authority/power in system
-Girl learns horrible secret/is abused by system
-Girl uses her information/power to fight against system

It's pretty much standard cyberpunk story B.
That's cute, but as others stated, the story is very unlikely to unfold this way. We can all try to have at least a LITTLE more faith in Urobuchi than that.
__________________
Kismet-chan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 19:59   Link #179
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Having not seen spoilers for next episode, I somehow doubt that's going to happen.

I'm sorry, but I'm not so naive to put everything in little categories. And I'm -especially- not so naive that a story as complex as this would go for a simple conclusion like this. No wonder I couldn't tell what you were thinking.
Cyberpunk stories are only made complex by having lots of independent actors or where loyalties are uncertain. This isn't the case in Psycho-Pass, and so the story is quite simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Also, given the context in which the chief said that phrase, they really have no reason to lie.
Except that the Sibyl System did lie, and Japan does not operate under the rule of law. Unless Kagari somehow committed a crime that warranted execution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kismet-chan View Post
That's cute, but as others stated, the story is very unlikely to unfold this way. We can all try to have at least a LITTLE more faith in Urobuchi than that.
What I described as cyberpunk story B is a standard story because it's good and it's effective. Sure the story can devolve into being all about Makishima, but that make for a poorer tale.

Besides, from what I can see, Psycho-Pass has had an extremely conventional story. And this only becomes more true if you compare it to print cyberpunk. Urobuchi Gen is no Alfred Bester.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-06, 20:03   Link #180
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Maybe you were a bit put-off by the fact that Sibyl turned out to be a bunch of brains with a God-complex, but you forget that the way they run things is based on logical calculations meant to determine the best and efficient method to maintain order. THIS is probably what they meant by "A country ruled by law". One where murderers and rapists actually get locked up rather than roam free.

Also, given the context in which the chief said that phrase, they really have no reason to lie.
May you explain in which country do murderers and rapists don't get locked up in general? (Some always gets away of course, but where do they "roam free"?)

And they aren't lying as much as they think no one else's law counts.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.