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Old 2013-03-06, 11:57   Link #3081
cedec0
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Quote:
the mood of saki should gave a hint on who won in achiga's side. If she is still determine to win and see her neechan then shiraitodai probably won.
The Saki main manga timeskips from Nadoka watching the Achiga-hen semi-final to the second semi-finals. No reactions are shown, and no hint of the winner is given.


----------------------

Quote:
@cedec0 Sorry, but do you happened to mix up Shindouji with Shiraitodai?
Yes, I did. I fixed it.

To tell the truth, 3rd and 4th place finish is what I am least confident about. I wouldn't be surprised to see either Shindouji or Shiraitodai in last place.
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Old 2013-03-06, 12:33   Link #3082
teja208
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
the mood of saki should gave a hint on who won in achiga's side. If she is still determine to win and see her neechan then shiraitodai probably won.
Likewise, the mood of Nodoka should gave us hint whether Achiga made it or not. Of course we are speculating here, but if anything I hope Shizu's performance next chapter would inspire something in Saki other than fear. Something positive you know or else...
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Old 2013-03-06, 12:49   Link #3083
Sumeragi
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Crack theory: Shizuno is the reason for the "break" we see in the preview back after the end of the first season.
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Old 2013-03-06, 14:20   Link #3084
Sol Falling
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People are seriously out of their minds trying to say Shiraitodai won't make the finals...
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Old 2013-03-06, 15:06   Link #3085
cedec0
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People are seriously out of their minds trying to say Shiraitodai won't make the finals...
Can someone help me out? I don't get this attitude that "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals", especially because i have yet to hear a single solid argument that supports this belief. While there is a lot of the evidence pointing to a Shiraitodai loss, I haven't seen any evidence suggesting the opposite.

So can someone explain to me why everyone thinks "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals" (Yes, Shiraitodai is a strong school... but all the teams in the semi-final are strong!)

Is the entire idea that "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals" based on a five second preview (showing Yuuki vs Teru) at the end of season 1 from way back in 2009? Is there anything else?
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Old 2013-03-06, 16:05   Link #3086
night_sentinel
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You are serious? You really don't get why its almost a sure thing that Shiraitodai is going to the finals?

As for Shiraitodai going to the finals which argument do you want? Story-telling perspective? Strength? Or current flow of the last match?

Let's see. Storytelling perspective.
Shiraitodai is undoubtedly the last boss of the tournament. They are the favorite to win. Heck, they won it for the last two years. I don't know about you, but I can't see Achiga, Senriyama or Shindouji replacing their spot. Even if they fell short of their hype, Shiraitodai as a whole is still the strongest team in Side-A.

There is also in term of potentiality. Senriyama, Shindouji and yes even Achiga barring any strategy that Akado can come up with has already shown all their cards. This still hasn't happened with Shiraitodai. Teru, Sumire and Takami can still get scarier.

Beside that, Saki entire motivation is talking to Teru through mahjong. And I'm beginning to believe that this 'talking' can be done indirectly. Consider this, Saki and Teru refuse to watch each other match. The only match that they will be forced to actually watch each other is when their team face each other. Perhaps there is something they want the other sibling to see/understand about their current playstyle?

As for the current match. I, myself, has been burned by the Awai hype. But, really. Awai is doing good all things considered. Just look at the point difference. She's raking a lot of points. The only plausible scenario for Shiraitodai to lose this current battle is if Awai was hitted directly by the incoming dealer yakuman. And even then, some calculations show that they will be able to retain second or even first simply to the high value hands that Awai was making.
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Old 2013-03-06, 16:50   Link #3087
orangejuicetang
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You know, thinking about it, on one hand Awai didn't really feel like she lived up to the hype, but on the other hand, that's partially because Senriyama and Shindouji are both running freaking ridiculous mahjong hax abilities at the table. Or as I like to call them, 'auto-win' abilities. And unlike alot of other hax mahjong auto-win abilities like pursuit riichi or even Saki's Rinshan Kaihou, which require a certain 'condition' to activate, these abilities activate at the very start of the match. Starting from Shindouji, it seems to be literally impossible to win in a match where they have a combo 'key' for, this being based off both speculation from other characters and what's been observed so far, to the point that I don't really think even Teru could break their combo play. Furthermore, this ability seems to have a higher priority than all other abilities seen thus far (in that if there are two auto-win abilities, this one comes out on top). Next there's Senriyama's newfound toki hax which is possibly even more hax than normal toki by herself. Solo Toki can see some turns into the future, but now with their combo play it's not even that, it's similar to Shindouji in that it's over at the start of the match. Toki reveals exactly what the best winning hand will be, and the steps needed to be taken to reach there. Has a lower priority than Shindouji but higher than Awai's supernova. Now onto Awai, her ability lets her basically get a pretty high scoring win as long as those two other auto-win hax abilities aren't activated. This may make it seem worse, but on the other hand, it's not nearly as limited as the other two. Shindouji can only use their combo play on certain hands where they manage to get a key for, and Senriyama only has a limited number of 'charges'. On the other hand, Awai can spam her ability infinitely, without any sort of possibly limits. And then, somewhat similar to Takami, it gets ridiculous when Awai's the dealer. Although Takami's true terror would come if she's dealer in the last hand, think about the situation where Senriyama is out of charges and Shindouji doesn't have any keys, and it's Awai's dealer. They'd literally have no possible way to break through, considering Awai's also passive ability of making everyone else start with terrible hands. In other words, if nobody else at the table has at least a hax mahjong ability on the level of 'automatic win the game', Awai will dealer repeat Hanemans until everybody's dead.

Of course, this isn't including Imagine Breaker Mountain Climber Shizu, who I'm hoping breaks all three of their hax abilities in the same game.
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Old 2013-03-06, 17:12   Link #3088
cedec0
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Quote:
Let's see. Storytelling perspective.
Shiraitodai is undoubtedly the last boss of the tournament. They are the favorite to win. Heck, they won it for the last two years. I don't know about you, but I can't see Achiga, Senriyama or Shindouji replacing their spot. Even if they fell short of their hype, Shiraitodai as a whole is still the strongest team in Side-A.
From the storytelling perspective, for a school to be known as the "strongest" doesn't provide any plot armor towards getting into the finals. Rather the opposite.

Tell me which of the following sounds more impressive:

1) Shiraitodai (the champion for the last two years) + some other school
2) The two schools "even stronger than Shiraitodai"

It happens all the time in fiction that someone is introduced as the "last boss" only to be defeated by someone even more powerful before the showdown with the heros ever happens. For example, Take Androids 17 and 18 who get taken out by Cell in Dragon Ball Z.

If all you want is the strongest possible opponents for the final, then two schools "even stronger than Shiraitodai" is the best you can get.

Quote:
There is also in term of potentiality. Senriyama, Shindouji and yes even Achiga barring any strategy that Akado can come up with has already shown all their cards. This still hasn't happened with Shiraitodai. Teru, Sumire and Takami can still get scarier.
Teru can still get scarier, of course, but you can't say that about the other two. There is just as much chance that Sumire and Takami would get even weaker. All the other teams could figure out Sumire's tell, and, if there are less dealer repeats in her round and she isn't dealer at the end, Takami would also become even less impressive.

Teru (and Shizuno for now) are the only characters in the semi-finals who haven't "shown all their cards".

Quote:
Beside that, Saki entire motivation is talking to Teru through mahjong. And I'm beginning to believe that this 'talking' can be done indirectly.
How exactly? Yuuki is going to communicate with Teru on Saki's behalf? ...

Besides, if Saki and Teru do manage to communicate, what happens to the epic Saki VS Teru showdown that will happen in the individuals? It becomes much less relevent and exciting.


Quote:
Consider this, Saki and Teru refuse to watch each other match. The only match that they will be forced to actually watch each other is when their team face each other.
Actually, given Saki's and Teru's personality, they probably wouldn't watch each others matches even in the finals.
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Old 2013-03-06, 17:44   Link #3089
Von Himmel
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Can someone help me out? I don't get this attitude that "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals", especially because i have yet to hear a single solid argument that supports this belief. While there is a lot of the evidence pointing to a Shiraitodai loss, I haven't seen any evidence suggesting the opposite.
Did you watch the anime preview final in season 1?
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Old 2013-03-06, 18:07   Link #3090
night_sentinel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
From the storytelling perspective, for a school to be known as the "strongest" doesn't provide any plot armor towards getting into the finals. Rather the opposite.

Tell me which of the following sounds more impressive:

1) Shiraitodai (the champion for the last two years) + some other school
2) The two schools "even stronger than Shiraitodai"

It happens all the time in fiction that someone is introduced as the "last boss" only to be defeated by someone even more powerful before the showdown with the heros ever happens. For example, Take Androids 17 and 18 who get taken out by Cell in Dragon Ball Z.

If all you want is the strongest possible opponents for the final, then two schools "even stronger than Shiraitodai" is the best you can get.
There is one teensy eensy problem with this statement. There may be a hype about two school stronger than Shiraitodai in the media. But, we the reader are actually exposed to the actual powerlevel and have witnessed the match. And we know that the other teams isn't actually stronger than Shiraitodai. Heck, you can argue that they are possibly weaker. If the scenario you proposed happened off-screen ... sure, it can possibly work. But, not here.

What we will get if that happens is negative hype with the expectation that Side-B will stomp your candidate from Side-A.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post

Teru can still get scarier, of course, but you can't say that about the other two. There is just as much chance that Sumire and Takami would get even weaker. All the other teams could figure out Sumire's tell, and, if there are less dealer repeats in her round and she isn't dealer at the end, Takami would also become even less impressive.

Teru (and Shizuno for now) are the only characters in the semi-finals who haven't "shown all their cards".
Let's see, if you want to compare Achiga and Shiraitodai...

Let's see on Yuu vs. Sumire..
I have a confession to make. I absolutely loathe the idea of Sumire's tell. I think that it would be better if it didn't exist because it single-handedly made the plot armor of Achiga sing I'm here! I'm here! that I even took notice. Most of the time, I'm trying to avoid thinking that it happened because I really like Yuu and I don't want that single action to color my judgement. Kapeesh?

On Takami vs Ako
Even if Takami never got her stupid yakuman just the possibility of it happening is limiting to Ako. Ako's playstyle is fast hands and it really should be covered by dealer repeats to make most of it. This round by nature won't really gain much points. Or if Takami get her last dealer... a slaughter against Ako.


And your last point of comparison is err... Shizu vs. Teru and the possibility of their hidden ace...
Err... do I have to make a comparison of this? I don't think Monkey deserve a total curbstomp.

How about Awai vs. Shizu? A bit doable...
1 on 1. I think that Awai will win against Shizu. This is because Shizu has shown no way of stopping passive abilities like 6-shanten. Besides, I have a feeling that Shizu's ability is conditional meaning it isn't active or consciously controlled. Its more likely that it will only be active if certain rolls of the dice are made.
On the other hand as a previous poster has pointed out, Awai's ability is active all the time. A big plus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post

How exactly? Yuuki is going to communicate with Teru on Saki's behalf? ...

Besides, if Saki and Teru do manage to communicate, what happens to the epic Saki VS Teru showdown that will happen in the individuals? It becomes much less relevent and exciting.

Actually, given Saki's and Teru's personality, they probably wouldn't watch each others matches even in the finals.
Are you saying that Saki and Teru will take a break or something when the captain and vanguard match rolled around? That would be incredibly out of character or at the very least showing quite a bad support for their teammates.

And no. Yuuki isn't going to communicate on Saki's behalf. Its just like Hisa vs. Bundou... Bundou or Hisa never communicated anything to each other but there is still something received from the battle on the watcher (Mihoko).

And a Shiraitodai vs. Kiyosumi won't devalue whatever fight Saki vs. Teru will have in the individuals. It is more likely that whatever the result, Saki vs. Teru will get even more intense because whoever might be the winner in this clash - it would result in the siblings being forced to confront each other than the outright avoidance they are currently doing right now.
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Old 2013-03-06, 19:04   Link #3091
cedec0
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I have a confession to make. I absolutely loathe the idea of Sumire's tell. I think that it would be better if it didn't exist because it single-handedly made the plot armor of Achiga sing I'm here! I'm here! that I even took notice. Most of the time, I'm trying to avoid thinking that it happened because I really like Yuu and I don't want that single action to color my judgement. Kapeesh?
I didn't really like the tell thing (or things like "power up from removing sock"), but whatever. However, tell or no tell, Sumire perfomance was still weak: If you add up the score of all the games where she didn't use her special ability, she still lost 5300 points.

Sumire used her sniping in four games:

+8000
+2600
-12000
-2100
Total impact of sniping -3500 points

Sumire lost 8800 points during the Sergeant battle, and the majority of that (5300 points) came from games where she didn't try to snipe.

Quote:
But, we the reader are actually exposed to the actual powerlevel and have witnessed the match. And we know that the other teams isn't actually stronger than Shiraitodai. Heck, you can argue that they are possibly weaker. If the scenario you proposed happened off-screen ... sure, it can possibly work. But, not here.
This is team event, and it is the team strenght that matters. Yes, Teru is unstoppable, but the strenght of the players who followed was lacking compared to the other schools. If Shiraitodai comes in 3rd or 4th, it is because the overall strenght of the winning schools was higher than Shiraitodai. These winning schools would be "even stronger than Shiraitodai".

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-03-16 at 21:19. Reason: Do not link to that site here!
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Old 2013-03-06, 20:10   Link #3092
night_sentinel
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
I didn't really like the tell thing (or things like "power up from removing sock"), but whatever. However, tell or no tell, Sumire perfomance was still weak: If you add up the score of all the games where she didn't use her special ability, she still lost 5300 points.

Sumire used her sniping in four games:

+8000
+2600
-12000
-2100
Total impact of sniping -3500 points

Sumire lost 8800 points during the Sergeant battle, and the majority of that (5300 points) came from games where she didn't try to snipe.
The reason why I don't like Sumire's tell is because it was illogical in the narrative sense. Heck, on Side-A, I managed to tolerate Shizu's power that they really should have hinted before and Ryuuka's sudden talking to Toki because if you give some sort of caveat you could make it sense a bit. Sumire's tell sort of fall apart when you analyze it though.

Anyway, Sumire only used her sniping in four games precisely because of the tell. If there was no tell, Sumire should be sniping till the end of the match garnering her more points.

The points:

+8000
+2600
-12000
-2100

The bolded -12,000 happened exactly due to the tell. If you take this off, Sumire will be getting positive points and Yuu would be losing 12,000 on the final score. It should even more than that because Sumire's attack would be successful. Besides, the fact that Sumire still managed to do that without her ability is actually to be commended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
This is team event, and it is the team strenght that matters. Yes, Teru is unstoppable, but the strenght of the players who followed was lacking compared to the other schools. If Shiraitodai comes in 3rd or 4th, it is because the overall strenght of the winning schools was higher than Shiraitodai. These winning schools would be "even stronger than Shiraitodai".
I really don't think that you can convince me that Achiga is stronger than Shiraitodai. The only Achiga which I can say that is stronger than her Shiraitodai counterpart is Arata.

If Shiraitodai placed lower than Achiga on this match, it doesn't necessarily meant that Achiga is stronger. Using your dragonball analogy, for example the fight with Raditz. It was Picolo who dealt the killing blow and Goku and Raditz died. Picolo is the lone survivor but you don't say in that fight that Picolo was the strongest of them, do you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post

Didn't both Saki and Nadoka SLEEP through the Sergeant round of the prefectural tournament final? See: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/saki/c019/26.html

Hmmm... that was because Hisa told them too. And they really can't help in the ensuing matches. On the other hand, the coming matches is someone Saki and Teru should be familiar with. And their teammates should be desperate for any advice against their counterpart.

Still, I give you that there is a slight possibility that Saki and Teru will not watch the vanguard and captain match. It will be really cold of them if they chose to do so, though.
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Old 2013-03-06, 20:19   Link #3093
Bladezer
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
While we wait, why doesn't everyone post their predicted order in which the four schools in semi-final will finish (first place, second place, etc...). Also a short (or long in my case) explanation why.

I will go first:

1st place = Achiga
2cd place = Senriyama
3rd place = Shindouji
4th place = Shiraitodai


Reasoning:

1) Achiga will reach the finals. There are tons of reasons for this: they are the main characters of the side story, the way the last chapter ended with Shizu about to kick some ass, etc... (read my previous posts for more reasons).

;--------------------------------

2) Shindouji can't be allowed (for plot reasons) to reach the finals because:

A) It would undermine the epic Saki VS Teru showdown that will happen in the individuals.

Consider what happened in the vanguard round of the semi-finals. All three players worked together to stop Teru, and two of them went so far as doing "heroic sacrifices" (Toki overusing her powers until she ended up in the hospital and Kuro discarding a dora). Despite all this, Teru still managed to rack up over 90,000 points, and she did this without showing all of her abilities.

So the stage for the Saki VS Teru showdown has now been perfectly set in the semi-finals, and having Teru participate in the finals would undermine this. First, Teru would undoubtedly go all-out in the finals, revealing all of her yet-unseen abilities, removing the aura of mystery surounding her right now. Second, (unless she send TWO opponents to the hospital) there is no way that Teru can top her performance in the semi-finals, and so her performance would be weaker in the finals (by comparison) making her seem like less of a monster. For these two reasons having Teru reach the finals would undermine the epic fight Saki VS Teru showdown, which is why it is unlikely to happen.

B) Shindouji reaching the finals would mean Kuro (and Yuuki) losing horribly in the vanguard round, which would be problematic.

Both Kuro and yuuki are weaker than Saki and would be crushed by Teru in the finals. This is problematic becuase Kuro has now sufferred two horrible loses in a row (in the quarter finals and semi-finals), and having it happan three times in a row would be too much (it would be boring and pathetic). Meanwhile, Yuuki lost in the quarter-finals, and (with the way things are going ) she is also going to reach the finals with two straight loses. Since the stage for the Saki VS Teru showdown has already been set by the semi-finals, Teru's massacre of Kuro and Yuuki in finals would be painful, repetitive, and serve no purpose.

C) Saki meanting Teru in the finals would akward (and be bad writing).

Saki has made a big deal of avoiding meeting Teru because she wants talk to her sister "through mahjong". If Shindouji reaches the finals, Saki/Teru meeting would be unavoidable, and this would mean a huge distract from the finals with no possible resolution (Teru and Saki wouldn't be playing Mahjong against each other).
But you see for the Saki/Teru showdown we have the possibility to finally reveal what happened to the 3rd mysterious girl. And by revealing everything about Saki and Teru's abilities and play styles leaves there to be more focused on the game

You are forgetting that Yuuki's skill is being recognized by not only Rinkai's coach and Satoha (who's only in 3rd because Teru, and Kei is seen as dangerous monster. As well that Yuuki is holding her ground against Satoha, meaning she will be able to fight Teru on even footing. There's also Harue now training Kuri in basically being able to play without her dora, as well that Kuro will get a much needed upgrade to her ability. Also I see all of Achiga about to receive a massive power up. Effectively they made it to the finals, meaning that its time for them to show Harue that you can get by without ridiculous hack abilities and just have decent skill or average abilities. I also the possibility of Kuro' starting hand having all 8 dora in it at the start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
D) The performance of Shindouji's players

With the exception of Teru, shindouji's players have had disapointing results in the semi-finals (they lost the 90,000 points that Teru gained). If Senriyama was going to make the finals, the performance of ALL of shindouji's players would have been more impressive (to keep anticipation up). For comparison, look at Senriyama performance in the quarter-finals: that is how a team that is going to next round looks like.

In a series that is as well-writen as Saki/Achiga-hen, I can't believe that a team that was as poorly showcased as Senriyama would make it to the finals. It would be extremely poor writing.
I don't find any of Shiraitodai's player's to be disappointing. Takami's style is to go for quick wins, allowing for her to get to her dealership quicker, so she can set up for harvest time, while also basically screwing over everybody who plays with big/slow hands, it also allows for to possibly do a direct yakuman hit get herself out of last.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
3) About Senriyama second place finish.

Senriyama is the second ranked school. They were showcased as a powerful opponent in the quarter-finals (where they crushed Achiga). Also, Ryuuka has the ability least likely to be cancelled by Shizuno (it is a brand new ability and it is impossible to know when she is going to use it). In my opinion, they are the most likely to be the second team to make it to the finals. (for more reasons why Senriyama is morely than Shiraitodai to make the finals, read my previous posts).
If Senriyama go to the finals, there going to be curb-stomped by all the 3 other schools. Yuuki will basically rank it in the finals if Suzu is the one who goes with her, or Satoha will destroy all 3 players, remember no Teru or Kei means she can unleash hell, why? Because Satoha can stand up to Teru and Toki's foresight did jack against Teru, while Yuuki will only have the east round to dominate. Izumi will just be crushed because she is not good at defense, and will make stupid mistakes like underestimating Mako, something that shouldn't be done. Sera will have to not only deal with Ako, who would be able to use her dealer repeats without worry, effectively meaning if Ako was given the chance, she could play quickly and logically bust someone, as well as having to deal with Hiroe's traps or Hisa psychological tricks of winning with hell waits, which as I said before I see Sera playing into since she goes for logical big hands. Hiroko would not be able to find weak points on Nodoka or Arata, since both their styles are flexible, while Kinue is a defensive player who's good at it. While Ryuuka would have to deal with Saki, Shizu who could basically negate her ability, while Kyouko who fought 3 monsters and was able to basically go, 'screw your damn abilities, I'll show you my raw skills can deal with you 3 freaks'. And when we take into Ryuuka's foresight having a limited number, Saki who would probably override it, and Shizu's who can negate it, Senriyama would be stuck in 4th place for the entire game. where as Shindoji and Shiraitodai would not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
4) Why I put Shiraitodai in last place

If Shiraitodaiis going to lose (not make it to the finals) then they are probably going to lose spectacularly. That is my feeling
I want you to take note of this, Awai is still winning despite Ryuuka (who had to get a ability to stand on the same ground as Awai) and Himeko's abilities basically being hacks. Also I saw Awai as being perfectly willing to bust Himeko, when Shizu stopped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
1st Achiga
2nd Senriyama
3rd Shiraitodai
4th Shindouji

Achiga is off course for plot reason, and similar to cedec0 I think her ability can tramp everyone on the table in the end. Koromo warned Saki about her. If she doesn't get first place, she will not be worth the warning. Saki will not see her as a threat.

As for why Shiraitodai shouldn't make it? Unlike cedec0 I don't think they are weak except for Seiko who loose huge chunk of points. I see them as powerful team as a whole, but when it comes to their abilities and characterization I don't think they have much left to show us in the finals.

In terms of abilities, we already seen them and we already expect the same thing in the finals except circumstances will not go against them much this time. If say for example Sumire overcome her tell, she will be able to target Achiga, but so what? It wouldn't make much of a difference from what happened to Izumi in the semi. Now comparing to other team like Senriyama and Shindouji, most of the player are badass normals with only one or two member with ability. In some ways it makes both teams inferior to Shiraitodai, but also make them more flexible and unpredictable. Throughout the Semi of Side A, notice that most of these badass normals are the ones coming up with counter measures against ability users. Akado vision is perhaps one of Achiga main secret weapon. Senriyama we have FunaQ targeting Seiko's discards, and Shindouji’s Yoshiko also seem to be able to adapt her playstyle to counter Sumire arrow shots. Who know what they will do next. So in a sense, having a team of badass normals might not be entirely a bad thing, I also think this a reason is why Himematsu was picked to advance along with Kiyosumi.
As stated Sumire was holding back, also Sumire can ditch her ability without any repercussions, also she getd over her tell, Sumire now has all 3 targets ready for again. Also what if it turns out that Sumire's piercing arrow, was able to get direct hits players as soon as they reach tenpai, meaning that Sumire will become very dangerous in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
In terms of characterization, if you didn't count Teru and Awai, I don't think the rest of Shiraitodai have much to offer in order to make us root for them. When it comes to characterization Senriyama is the best out of the four teams here. TokixRyuuka consider by some as the top pairing in Sakiverse which says a lot. We also got Sera, a kickass tomboy who seems to taken liking of Ako, and sadistic mad scientist Funa Q who I think would want a rematch with Arata. Izumi appears to be Senriyama's Yuuki, she might be weak, but she has room for improvement. Shindouji is also marginally better than Shiraitodai when it come to memorable characters, we have "Subara", "It's all the government's fault!" and "Reservation" + *moaning* I think you get my point.
I think in the finals we'll be seeing more of Shiraitodai's interactions as a team. Senriyama may have the best characterization, but they are effectively the weakest on team at the table, as when you compare abilities and play styles, Senriyama's have to many flaws, Toki can't always change something from happening at people who the tiles favor naturally screw with her ability, Izumi's defensive as been shown to be atrocious and again she overestimates herself way to much while stupidly underestimating her opponents, Sera's style has the flaw of taking to long to form without the benefits of setting traps like Hiroe's or Hisa hell waits ability, while Hiroko's style of analyzing abilities/play styles doesn't work very well most vice-captains styles are flexible or their abilities haven't got exploitable flaws, while Ryuuka does have her foresight and normal, skill but when most captains are either monsters, monster slayers or have abilities that effectively skewer draws in their favor they don't fare well against other schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
I should also mention that I felt Himematsu characterization isn't bad as well especially coming from Hiroe and Kyouko although Miyamori is good too but not much from Eisui. Eisui were pretty much there to offer us superpowers and additional fancservices. It would seem that team without much superpower are compensate with deeper characterization.

Overall, Senriyama has a very well-balanced team of both badass normal and superpower players with best characterization which is why I think they deserve to advance along with Achiga to the finals.
Eisui will hopefully get some more characterization in the individuals. Also Himematsu are school of legit badass normals, Suzu is the only inconstant one, while we have Yuuko who was the only one to get a win over Mako, Hiroe and traps are really annoying, Kinue who was able to defend when she had to deal with Nodoka, Hatsumi and Sae, while yes Sae focused mainly on Hatsumi, Kinue didn't discard any wind tiles, while also being able to avoid Nodoka, and Kyoukp stood on even footing with basically a fortune user, a goddesses and Miyanaga, which is very impressive for someone with nothing of any real specialty


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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
That preview at the end of season 1 was made in 2009, before the creation of Achiga-hen. I don't think it is still valid.

I bet you anything that, while Shiraitodai was originally supposed to make it to the finals, they later decided to make Shiraitodai into the "final boss" of the Achiga-hen side story.

If Shiraitodai was really going to make finals, then the semi-finals would have been used to showcase the school's awsome mahjong power. This didn't happen. Right now Shiraitodai has one "awsome" player (Teru) and four, point-losing disappointments. (Does anyone think Seiko stands a chance against Nadoka? Is that an anticipated matchup?)
Its very simple, reveal everything about the school's abilities and play styles so that we can focus on the game, and workout all the mechanics and subtle things that Ritz puts in, like with Kiyosumi's quarter-finals, or how if you pay attention you see Yuuki's progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Can someone help me out? I don't get this attitude that "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals", especially because i have yet to hear a single solid argument that supports this belief. While there is a lot of the evidence pointing to a Shiraitodai loss, I haven't seen any evidence suggesting the opposite.

So can someone explain to me why everyone thinks "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals" (Yes, Shiraitodai is a strong school... but all the teams in the semi-final are strong!)

Is the entire idea that "Shiraitodai is guaranteed to make the finals" based on a five second preview (showing Yuuki vs Teru) at the end of season 1 from way back in 2009? Is there anything else?
Shiraitodai are guaranteed a place because of their strength, the only 1 out of the 5 members who did bad was Seiko and that was just because her ability limits her, and Hiroko's style is the type that people with limiting styles and abilities are weak against. Also Awai is still dominating despite Himeko and Ryuuka's abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
You are serious? You really don't get why its almost a sure thing that Shiraitodai is going to the finals?

As for Shiraitodai going to the finals which argument do you want? Story-telling perspective? Strength? Or current flow of the last match?

Let's see. Storytelling perspective.
Shiraitodai is undoubtedly the last boss of the tournament. They are the favorite to win. Heck, they won it for the last two years. I don't know about you, but I can't see Achiga, Senriyama or Shindouji replacing their spot. Even if they fell short of their hype, Shiraitodai as a whole is still the strongest team in Side-A.

There is also in term of potentiality. Senriyama, Shindouji and yes even Achiga barring any strategy that Akado can come up with has already shown all their cards. This still hasn't happened with Shiraitodai. Teru, Sumire and Takami can still get scarier.
Yep I see Shiraitodai is the final boss and I see them basically backing every member of Kiyosumi into a corner. Meaning Yuuki having to try and really keep the points she got as dealer from the east round in the south round, while Mako will possibly have to Sumire, who changes her hand as the match goes to attack other players, remember one of Mako's strategies is to make calls to slow down other players hands, which is basically what she did and screwed over Asilinn's abilities, and you dot not restrict yourhand against Sumire, which is what calls do, Takami style also incorporates speed, meaning she'd be screwing Hisa out of hell waits, which take time, while Saki has to deal with someone who can take away her winning tiles. Nodoka is the only one who won't have trouble, but maybe Seiko is hiding something. I really do hope Seiko is hiding something, like maybe she doesn't actually need to make calls to get toitoi, which would really put a throne in Nodoka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
As for the current match. I, myself, has been burned by the Awai hype. But, really. Awai is doing good all things considered. Just look at the point difference. She's raking a lot of points. The only plausible scenario for Shiraitodai to lose this current battle is if Awai was hitted directly by the incoming dealer yakuman. And even then, some calculations show that they will be able to retain second or even first simply to the high value hands that Awai was making.
I'm not burned by it. I basically see it as showing that Awai is still freaking scary when you have 2 people who're basically hacking, and the one who stopped the start of her rampage was Shizu, who was basically forced into revealing her hidden ability of negating occult players wins.


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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
From the storytelling perspective, for a school to be known as the "strongest" doesn't provide any plot armor towards getting into the finals. Rather the opposite.

Tell me which of the following sounds more impressive:

1) Shiraitodai (the champion for the last two years) + some other school
2) The two schools "even stronger than Shiraitodai"

It happens all the time in fiction that someone is introduced as the "last boss" only to be defeated by someone even more powerful before the showdown with the heros ever happens. For example, Take Androids 17 and 18 who get taken out by Cell in Dragon Ball Z.

If all you want is the strongest possible opponents for the final, then two schools "even stronger than Shiraitodai" is the best you can get.
Saki isn't dragonball. And Shiratodai is the strongest team in the side a semi-finals, Seiko was the only one who got a huge point loss, where as the other 3 schools had to fight just to keep up with them. Also something that show Senriyma is weaker then Achhiga, Achiga where th1st ines to make it back to 1000 points, while Izumi basically caused Senriyama to become the school to bust.

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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Teru can still get scarier, of course, but you can't say that about the other two. There is just as much chance that Sumire and Takami would get even weaker. All the other teams could figure out Sumire's tell, and, if there are less dealer repeats in her round and she isn't dealer at the end, Takami would also become even less impressive.

Teru (and Shizuno for now) are the only characters in the semi-finals who haven't "shown all their cards".
Teru knows about Sumire's tell, so that means Teru is probably going to have her use her piercing arrow in a quick match and watch for it, and will tell Sumire about it, and find a work around. Takami still has the fact she can plays with fast hands, also what Takami was to get a direct hit on someone, lets say for example, she deliberately aimed her harvest time at Hitomi, Hitomi would've effectively gone bust and if Shindouji had points left, Seiko would possibly finish them off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Actually, given Saki's and Teru's personality, they probably wouldn't watch each others matches even in the finals.
Saki is going to watch the finals, seriously she's a close friend to Yuuki and her teammate, I'd feel like crap if they didn't come cheer for me. Again Teru will watch Saki's match, probably out of curiosity about Shizu's ability, as well as to cheer Awai on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
There is one teensy eensy problem with this statement. There may be a hype about two school stronger than Shiraitodai in the media. But, we the reader are actually exposed to the actual powerlevel and have witnessed the match. And we know that the other teams isn't actually stronger than Shiraitodai. Heck, you can argue that they are possibly weaker. If the scenario you proposed happened off-screen ... sure, it can possibly work. But, not here.

What we will get if that happens is negative hype with the expectation that Side-B will stomp your candidate from Side-A.
I agree here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Let's see, if you want to compare Achiga and Shiraitodai...

Let's see on Yuu vs. Sumire..
I have a confession to make. I absolutely loathe the idea of Sumire's tell. I think that it would be better if it didn't exist because it single-handedly made the plot armor of Achiga sing I'm here! I'm here! that I even took notice. Most of the time, I'm trying to avoid thinking that it happened because I really like Yuu and I don't want that single action to color my judgement. Kapeesh?
I don't like it either, because it undermines both Sumire's skill and ability, as well as Yuu's badass moments. What's weirder is there is normal counter to it, so the tell is not needed. Also seeing as Harue managed to figure out Takami's harvest time, why couldn't it have just been she noticed that when someone plays defensively Sumire has a tendency to force her hand, meaning Yuu ronning Sumire would've mean more awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
On Takami vs Ako
Even if Takami never got her stupid yakuman just the possibility of it happening is limiting to Ako. Ako's playstyle is fast hands and it really should be covered by dealer repeats to make most of it. This round by nature won't really gain much points. Or if Takami get her last dealer... a slaughter against Ako.
Actually when you think about Takami has the perfect counter for Ako's style. The point of fast/speedy hands is to quickly get to your dealership then get dealer repeats and proceed to bust someone. With Takami since Ako would be winning with cheap hands, all Takami is one good hit on Ako in the last round and Ako would lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
How about Awai vs. Shizu? A bit doable...
1 on 1. I think that Awai will win against Shizu. This is because Shizu has shown no way of stopping passive abilities like 6-shanten. Besides, I have a feeling that Shizu's ability is conditional meaning it isn't active or consciously controlled. Its more likely that it will only be active if certain rolls of the dice are made.
On the other hand as a previous poster has pointed out, Awai's ability is active all the time. A big plus.
I agree here, but like with Koromo I'd say Shizu would be able to give Awai a good match, basically Awai wouldn't win through busting her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
I didn't really like the tell thing (or things like "power up from removing sock"), but whatever. However, tell or no tell, Sumire perfomance was still weak: If you add up the score of all the games where she didn't use her special ability, she still lost 5300 points.

Sumire used her sniping in four games:

+8000
+2600
-12000
-2100
Total impact of sniping -3500 points


Sumire lost 8800 points during the Sergeant battle, and the majority of that (5300 points) came from games where she didn't try to snipe.
Sumire ran into the same problem that Hitomi ran into. Yoshiko was using fast hands as counter. Sumire's ability requires time to get the right set up attack. Basically how Hitomi had to deal with Ako's fast/cheap hands play style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
This is team event, and it is the team strenght that matters. Yes, Teru is unstoppable, but the strenght of the players who followed was lacking compared to the other schools. If Shiraitodai comes in 3rd or 4th, it is because the overall strenght of the winning schools was higher than Shiraitodai. These winning schools would be "even stronger than Shiraitodai".
Please do take note that Shiraitodai are still in the lead, despite everything that's happened. And remember they seem to be hiding their actual power levels. Which is basically what Kiyosumi did in the side a preliminaries and quarter-finals. And look at what Yuuki is having to do to hold onto her dealership. While Shiraitodai is in the semi-finals and are still holding back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Didn't both Saki and Nadoka SLEEP through the Sergeant round of the prefectural tournament final? See: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/saki/c019/26.html
They were specifically told by Hisa to go sleep, so they wouldn't fall asleep in the middle of their matches. And they still watched Yuuki's match.

Also something to note is Senriyama maybe ranked 2nd in the country, they are not the 2nd strongest. They placed 4th in the last nationals. Which implies Sera got destoryed by Jindai, then Teru completely destoryed Ryuuka.
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Old 2013-03-06, 20:53   Link #3094
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Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post

Also something to note is Senriyama maybe ranked 2nd in the country, they are not the 2nd strongest. They placed 4th in the last nationals. Which implies Sera got destoryed by Jindai, then Teru completely destoryed Ryuuka.
Also Senriyama is the fourth seeded school so that should say that they aren't the second strongest school. Even without the seeding i couldn't see how they would be stronger than Rinkai or Eisui.
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Old 2013-03-06, 22:05   Link #3095
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Originally Posted by Bladezer View Post


Sumire ran into the same problem that Hitomi ran into. Yoshiko was using fast hands as counter. Sumire's ability requires time to get the right set up attack. Basically how Hitomi had to deal with Ako's fast/cheap hands play style.

I agree but I think it was more Yoshiko noticing she got hit when she get to tempai for big hand. She then change her style in when she get tempai she traw it away and get a lesser one.

Developing a natural conter to Sumire's style by having learn from experience.
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Old 2013-03-06, 23:02   Link #3096
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SPOILERS ARE HERE!!!


Spoiler for Cover of Episode 20:



Here let me start with some...
Spoiler for Assorted Image dumps:



Spoiler for More image:
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Old 2013-03-06, 23:19   Link #3097
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Spoiler for 'first image':
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Old 2013-03-06, 23:26   Link #3098
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w00t

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edit: m04r

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Old 2013-03-06, 23:33   Link #3099
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Spoiler for 'first image':


Spoiler for ....:

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Yes. Lol.


Spoiler for More images for everyone... Here are our favorite demon lords talking....:
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Old 2013-03-06, 23:56   Link #3100
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Is this the final chapter?
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