AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-01-23, 21:08   Link #1521
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And statistics are that countries with heavy regulations and bans, have a tremendously lower homicide rate, and lower death rate by firearm. There is such a huge difference it is staggering. When you consider that every country has the same % of stupid people, then we realize the US is no different. But we must stick to the firm belief that nothing that is ever tried in any other country, could possibly work here! That is why we stick with private health care, which costs us over twice as much for less care, compared to other countries. Socialized medicine wouldn't work here, obviously!

And hey, listening to statistics and data is silly. :P
And I quote Ascaloth : McNamara's fallacy.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is online now  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:12   Link #1522
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
That only works, if what can't be measured, is ignored. But if it can't be measured, how does one know? Experiment and see!

But isn't it a bit worse to undervalue that which *can* be measured?
Kaijo is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:16   Link #1523
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
No sane person would want to live in a world with so much death and violence if there was a realistic way to stop it. But there isn't. We don't live in a perfect world.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:26   Link #1524
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
No sane person would want to live in a world with so much death and violence if there was a realistic way to stop it. But there isn't. We don't live in a perfect world.
Well, there are certainly ways of reducing it, as practiced by many other countries in the world.

The issue is what are the potential sacrifices.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:41   Link #1525
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Well, there are certainly ways of reducing it, as practiced by many other countries in the world.

The issue is what are the potential sacrifices.
Yes, and those methods might make people safer.

Make rich people safer, that is.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:48   Link #1526
Archon_Wing
Throw it on the ground
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mists
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Yes, and those methods might make people safer.

Make rich people safer, that is.
It is somewhat true. I mean is Obama gonna make sure he won't be protected by armed guards? So you only get protection if you're an important person and not a peasant? He'll do things if it'll save one life. Like his.

Still, gun control measures have affected the proletariat outside other countries haven't they? And some death and violence has been mitigated.

Just because it's the way it is, doesn't mean inaction is the proper action.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:59   Link #1527
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Here's a thought, how well are guns going to do against the government if they send drones after you?

Or how about a swarm of these (imagine with a small firearm attached).
DonQuigleone is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 21:59   Link #1528
Lost Cause
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Virginia
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And statistics are that countries with heavy regulations and bans, have a tremendously lower homicide rate, and lower death rate by firearm. There is such a huge difference it is staggering. When you consider that every country has the same % of stupid people, then we realize the US is no different. But we must stick to the firm belief that nothing that is ever tried in any other country, could possibly work here! That is why we stick with private health care, which costs us over twice as much for less care, compared to other countries. Socialized medicine wouldn't work here, obviously!

And hey, listening to statistics and data is silly. :P
Yes, we saw how well bans and heavy regulations worked in Chicago last summer now didn't we?

I'd like to ask Kyuu, Kaijo, and Sugetso to put themselves in syn's position, for a week. No "Star Trek" weapons, no guns, no nothing except your wits and survival instinct to get you thru your daily routine. What do you do if confronted by a robber or thief? Remember your equipment if your life's work, losing it means you don't eat or can't make the rent! What do you do, how do you act?
For me; I have four years of Aikido under my belt, a collapsible baton, attaché case. But then I've had training. Now what about you?
__________________

Ride, Boldly Ride!
Lost Cause is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 22:00   Link #1529
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Well, considering the US is also one of the worst when it comes to income inequality, it would seem that making poor people richer via socialism, like many other countries do, tends to make countries safer as well. Huh... reduce income inequality and heavily regulate guns?

Not seeing a down side here....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Yes, we saw how well bans and heavy regulations worked in Chicago last summer now didn't we?
You aren't bothering to read. It's been said many times now, that a city or even state-wide ban won't work. It needs a country-wide solution. See: California Can't Go It Alone for reasons why.

Quote:
I'd like to ask Kyuu, Kaijo, and Sugetso to put themselves in syn's position, for a week. No "Star Trek" weapons, no guns, no nothing except your wits and survival instinct to get you thru your daily routine. What do you do if confronted by a robber or thief? Remember your equipment if your life's work, losing it means you don't eat or can't make the rent! What do you do, how do you act?
For me; I have four years of Aikido under my belt, a collapsible baton, attaché case. But then I've had training. Now what about you?
This is what we are reduced to? Comparing penis sizes? "Um... well... I know nothing about you, but I'm SURE you've NEVER had any bad things in your life! It's never been as rough as everyone else's!"

Sorry, that reasoning doesn't hold water. Everyone has hardships. Everyone has faced things you probably wouldn't imagine. But if you really want to know, I'm not a rich-boy, if that's what you're trying to get at. True, I had middle-class parents, but they aren't rolling in dough. Dad was a blue-collar worker, and could barely afford to provide. I got a college loan, went to school part time and worked full time to support myself and pay my education. Moved back home for a couple of years after to save up money, then moved out into a cheap $500 a month place of my own. Lost my job in the recession, spent almost a year on unemployment, and almost two years on food stamps(which means I wiped out all my savings and had to borrow money to keep myself funded), before finally landing some temp jobs, and then back into a real one. Still only make $11 an hour, but I support myself and am paying off my debts.

Oh yeah, did I mention the time I worked for Safeway(a grocery store) while working for college, and on a late night shift, we were held up by a pair of gunman? It was a bit humorous in retrospect, but it didn't exactly make me shit my pants and decide I needed a gun. Had to wait until my depression kicked up years later for that, and went into a gun shop in Arizona where, after a 30 min wait for a background check, I walked out with a gun. Had there been a month or even a week's waiting time, I wouldn't have been able to go through with it. Not that I"m blaming the gun... well, maybe a little. 80% my fault, 20% gun's fault. I got myself into my mess, but I also dragged myself out of it.

I know what it's like to scrimp on food and to go hungry at times (skipped meals while in college to be able to pay for my apartment and books, and had to skip meals while in unemployment to keep my third-rate condo). I hear police sirens occasionally at night(my cheap place isn't in the best side of town, but I'll admit, not the worst, either). And I know people have been attacked out there. I was bullied in high school, and kept to myself in college. But through all this, I never felt like I needed any weapon to defend myself. I know a little akido, and I have a bow and arrows that I take out occasionally for fun, but that's about it.

I had my depression, but outside of that, I've never let fear get to me. Perhaps it is not an easy thing for people to come to, but I've always been more logical and less emotional than most, so I can compartmentalize the threats and risks, and recognize how precious little control I have in this life. Anything could kill me. I could step out on the sidewalk and a have a speeding car strike me down. I could eat some poisoned food. I could be shot at, knifed, held up, or any number of things. I've come to understand how fragile life is, and as cold as I may be about people, I do recognize one timeless bit of logic as a nerd: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few... or the one." As cold as I can be sometimes, I decided to never put my security above the needs of everyone else. I'm not so important, that I deserve special treatment at the expense of anyone else. And considering the extra potential for harm that a gun brings, I have decided to respect everyone else's security, by not supporting Big Gun and owning a firearm that can later be stolen and used to hurt people. Despite the dangers out there, despite having a gun waved in my face and told to get down on the ground, face down, I decided long ago not to let fear get to me.

But that's just me.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2013-01-23 at 22:21.
Kaijo is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 22:02   Link #1530
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Well, considering the US is also one of the worst when it comes to income inequality, it would seem that making poor people richer via socialism, like many other countries do, tends to make countries safer as well. Huh... reduce income inequality and heavily regulate guns?

Not seeing a down side here....
It's also not a realistic solution because it's not going to happen soon. Maybe not in either of our lifetimes.

I don't think we should give up on trying to make everything better, but this is the world I have to live in now. I'd like to keep living in it, so I can contribute to making the world better for future generations.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 22:08   Link #1531
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
I have to say, at this point this thread is starting to become less about meaningful discussion and more about being a soapbox to toss hyperbole and ridiculous scenarios around, half the time by people who understands little of what they're actually saying.
kyp275 is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 22:26   Link #1532
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's also not a realistic solution because it's not going to happen soon. Maybe not in either of our lifetimes.

I don't think we should give up on trying to make everything better, but this is the world I have to live in now. I'd like to keep living in it, so I can contribute to making the world better for future generations.
So we should just all give up? Toss in the towel? If so, you might as well stand out on the street all night and wait for someone to kill you. Some of us want to keep fighting. It doesn't matter if it is SOPA, wars, warrantless wiretapping, or the guns flooding our streets. The moment we give up, is the moment we stop living. I know you said you don't think we should give, but you may as well have.

Sometimes we can accomplish some things. But that only happens when we change our mindset, get involved, and spread the words. When enough people feel strongly enough about a change in direction, it happens. It happened in the UK and in Australia, when enough of the populace said, "Enough is enough! We don't need these guns!"

And just like that, they got rid of the vast majority. They weren't the only groups of humans that did so. But thinking we, as Americans, are somehow mentally challenged enough that we can't get out of bed in the morning without a diaper and a gun... well, I don't want to let people continue to be brainwashed. If I can fight the RIAA and MPAA and their lies, I can fight the gun industry and it's lies.
Kaijo is offline  
Old 2013-01-23, 22:36   Link #1533
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Well, that got interesting quickly. Step away for a day and.....

I think we've reached an impasse. Apologies for those in the middle of making a response, or who want to get a last word in, but for now emotions are flaring and the topic has run its course. Before things get worse, let's just call it good for now, take a breather, and reconvene at a later date. Maybe by then we'll all have some fresh perspectives and calmer minds.

Not that I'm holding my breath on that one. But hey, hope is hope.
__________________
Solace is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 18:48   Link #1534
Kyuu
=^^=
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 35
Quote:
Some of the gun lobby’s strongest allies are breaking with the National Rifle Association to support proposals that would expand background checks for private firearm sales.

In behind-the-scenes talks with congressional staff members and others, gunmakers, dealers and other Second Amendment advocates have offered support for more instant criminal background checks, buoying the hopes of gun-control supporters, including President Obama, who has put a top priority on extending criminal checks to private sales.

The trade group for the nation’s leading firearm manufacturers said it will not actively oppose the expansion of background checks, which are designed to prevent guns from reaching criminals or the seriously mentally ill.

“That’s more the NRA’s issue,” Steve Sanetti, president of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), said in an interview. “From the commercial side, we’re already there, and we’ve been there, and we were the ones that have been the strongest proponents of an effective, complete background check.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...394_story.html

The priority of the NRA has long been directed towards gun sales. This is apparent after its dialogue after Sandy Hook. Therefore, it is wise for many gun people to disassociate from the NRA and actually get some sound solutions put forward. For the NRA to speak against increased background checks has been astounding; and thankfully, many sound gun people disagree with that.

This is a small step forward, but it is a step.

Eventually, the NRA should be dethroned as the dictatorship of all gun owners. I have reason to believe -- many gun owners actually do not support the NRA's views. This article may show just that.

Quote:
Gun store owners and retail dealers, for the most part, have been more vocal in supporting an expansion of background checks after the shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., in December. Because commercial establishments are already required to perform them, an expanded background check requirement probably would increase traffic and business for licensed dealers.
So, time to increase the requirements. At the same time, clamp down harder on gun trafficking. Problem partially solved.

People can have their guns. The rest of us can worry less about being randomly shot.

Win-Win thinking.
Kyuu is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 20:15   Link #1535
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
The priority of the NRA has long been directed towards gun sales. This is apparent after its dialogue after Sandy Hook. Therefore, it is wise for many gun people to disassociate from the NRA and actually get some sound solutions put forward. For the NRA to speak against increased background checks has been astounding; and thankfully, many sound gun people disagree with that.
You're probably right, but I perceived their stances a bit differently. I suspect their fear is along the lines of "give them an inch and they'll take a mile." Yield in any form on gun control, and it won't be long before the controls are tightened a bit more, then a bit more than that, and so on.

They have good reason to feel that way, too. Beyond the crazy rhetoric about how dictatorships started by banning guns lies the fact that there aren't many (any?) first-world nations with the access to and lax laws surrounding guns. Less than half of all Americans own guns - the numbers vary somewhere beween the low 30's and low 40's percentage-wise, meaning that gun owners aren't in the majority, either. So we see that many countries similar to us have already placed extremely heavily restrictions on firearms, and even here in America we don't have a strong majority who can be counted on to speak out against such restrictions. What's the best way to compensate and work against such an outcome? Be extreme, be aggressive, and be loud. The NRA does a pretty good job at all three.
__________________
Ledgem is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 20:32   Link #1536
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
What's the best way to compensate and work against such an outcome? Be extreme, be aggressive, and be loud. The NRA does a pretty good job at all three.
... and alienate the other 60%-70% of the population? That works ok for coup d'etat (ask the Bolsheviks) though.
mangamuscle is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 20:43   Link #1537
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
... and alienate the other 60%-70% of the population? That works ok for coup d'etat (ask the Bolsheviks) though.
Alienates may be too strong of a word. Others may view the NRA as being a bit batty, but what's the harm? They're not advocating that anyone be forced to do anything, nor that anyone be restricted from anything. It just means that anyone wanting to restrict guns will have to contend with the NRA and, given the reputation that they have established, the challenger will have to be very devoted to their cause and have a strong support network. The majority of the population is too apathetic to be up to the challenge.
__________________
Ledgem is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 20:50   Link #1538
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Alienates may be too strong of a word. Others may view the NRA as being a bit batty, but what's the harm?
I could answer that and have endless pages of pointless discussion. But I rather ask, what's the advantage? Most of the world countries do without private ownership of guns just fine. As a matter of fact, I can't think of one country where gun use is rampant where I think "Gee, I want to be like them!", can you?
mangamuscle is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 20:53   Link #1539
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
I could answer that and have endless pages of pointless discussion. But I rather ask, what's the advantage? Most of the world countries do without private ownership of guns just fine. As a matter of fact, I can't think of one country where gun use is rampant where I think "Gee, I want to be like them!", can you?
I was speaking about the NRA as a political organization without making a remark on gun control. There's a separate thread for discussion about gun control itself.
__________________
Ledgem is offline  
Old 2013-03-06, 21:03   Link #1540
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
What they're missing is the reality that every ounce of security they enjoy was purchased with lives and guns. Nature is not a friendly place and human nature becomes both primal and predatory at the slightest breakdown of social order...
I didn't know there were massive riots in Japan after a massive tsunami, earthquake, and nuclear disaster.

...or not.

If we Americans are such natural dickheads. I think we should fix that part.

As for defending Liberty, don't give me that bullshit. I don't see the NRA opposing the military-industrial complex at all. Where is the NRA when the Patriot Act was passed, waving flags and crying 'Murrica? Where the hell are you people when the funny little clauses were inserted into the massive funding bill, NDAA? Why weren't you calling out on that piece of Congressional trickery, defending our liberty then, hmm?
Irenicus is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.