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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 15 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 21 42.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 14.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 12.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-06, 23:17   Link #181
CJ_Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) I think the brains were meant to disturb the viewer, but I doubt Gen is aiming for any viewer to judge Sibyl purely on the basis of "Eeewwww... brains!" On the whole, the fact it's 250 brains doesn't bother people as much as the fact it's 250 people like Makishima. If these people still maintained their bodies, and just met in a matrix somewhere from time-to-time, it wouldn't have a major impact on my view of Sibyl.

2) Roger is right on a practical basis, which does question how long Sibyl would even work. A smart gang, or a small army, would be enough to take down Sibyl. Personally, I largely chalk this up to Sibyl complacency. And maybe that's part of Gen's point - Very authoritarian states will eventually achieve what they want, and then grow complacent, and then eventually a Makishima rises and... Perhaps it's an added argument against authoritarian states.
damn thats a good point, 250 people like makishima running the government, kinda like what we have today in most western governments lol.

2) is a point that gen is trying to get across, mostly as an allegory to Japan and its Xenophobic tendencies. This is the reason why he used the hyper oats as a plot point. Anyone who has taken a biology class (and still remembers it) know about the red queen theory. In which a system that has no to little biological diversity will eventually die. wither from outside influences or inside mutations. Sibil keeps that much needed diversity soo low that it FORCES people like makishima to arise, Makishima is the mutation, only this time, he is waay too strong for them to handle. but they don't know it yet. no matter how you slice it, this show is pretty deep.

Gen is my favorite director/creator in the anime world now, got much respect for him.

By the way, the number of seats in the Japanese house of concilors (the upper house of the two houses of parliament) is 242. . . .

(there used to be 252 seats until 1998.............)

pretty close to 250, I'm not sure is that is a coincidence...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
we know for sure it isn't Mad Max out there. We are given more and more signs that the border is designed not to protect the citizens, but to protect Sybil. That once the citizens know what the outside world is really like, Sybil will no longer have power over the population.

The whole point of oats is the Japan had managed to be self-sufficient in food. This allowed the country to be isolated. If they lose the crop, they would have to trade for food... Which means there IS food in the outside world to trade. Which means the outside world isn't as scary as Sybil likes to imply.
that's a good insight. I missed the specific details of that. I do find it funny that after All this evidence debunking sibil and people still defend it? Gen has basically been whacking people over the head with it since episode one when sibil was about to KILL that woman after she JUST GOT RAPED. Those people who can condone stuff like that. . .wow. . .just wow.

Its like if these people's significant others were raped then given an immediate death penalty by the judge because they are too traumatised. . .and not just any old death, but a death WHERE THEIR GUTS ARE SPLATTERED AND BODIES ARE BLOWN UP, they would be like "sure, that's fine as long as sibil(the Judge Jury and Prosecutor) keeps the peace"



Don't even know why people are still arguing for this unless they just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

Last edited by CJ_Walker; 2013-03-06 at 23:45.
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Old 2013-03-07, 01:53   Link #182
Quadratic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, that's the leader of a country comparing his country favorably to other countries. Shocking, I know.
True, yes. But, under the context of the situation (Touma talking to Makishima), I'd still say he's being truthful (for most part) in this instance because Makishima would be the kind of guy to called him out if he was lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
What I described as cyberpunk story B is a standard story because it's good and it's effective. Sure the story can devolve into being all about Makishima, but that make for a poorer tale.
I won't speak on behalf of others, but there are some hints that Akane may possibly become the motherbrain of Sibyl, providing more leniency in its readings. Reason I say this is because:
Spoiler for reason on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
I do find it funny that after All this evidence debunking sibil and people still defend it?
It's fun, that's why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
Gen has basically been whacking people over the head with it since episode one when sibil was about to KILL that woman after she JUST GOT RAPED. Those people who can condone stuff like that. . .wow. . .just wow.

Its like if these people's significant others were raped then given an immediate death penalty by the judge because they are too traumatised. . .and not just any old death, but a death WHERE THEIR GUTS ARE SPLATTERED AND BODIES ARE BLOWN UP, they would be like "sure, that's fine as long as sibil(the Judge Jury and Prosecutor) keeps the peace"
Yeah, wow. I ask you, and anyone else who agrees with you, to watch episode 1 again or read the quick summary below:
Dominator set to paralyzer mode.
Akane intervenes causing the victim to panic.
Victim pours petrol over herself.
Dominator set to kill mode.
Akane intervenes and calms the victim down.
Gino paralyzes victim.
Victim recovers.

But watch as I cut out Akane out of episode 1:
Dominator set to paralyzer mode.
Masaoka paralyzes victim.
Victim recovers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
Don't even know why people are still arguing for this unless they just want to argue for the sake of arguing.
It's also to correct others who have mistaken some info and argue some nonsensible points (and yes, applies to both sides and yes, I have been corrected a few times myself).
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Old 2013-03-07, 02:05   Link #183
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
True, yes. But, under the context of the situation (Touma talking to Makishima), I'd still say he's being truthful (for most part) in this instance because Makishima would be the kind of guy to called him out if he was lying.


I won't speak on behalf of others, but there are some hints that Akane may possibly become the motherbrain of Sibyl, providing more leniency in its readings. Reason I say this is because:
Spoiler for reason on this:


It's fun, that's why.
Which would just be one of the possible outcomes of 4Tran's Cyberpunk Story B.
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Old 2013-03-07, 02:26   Link #184
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which would just be one of the possible outcomes of 4Tran's Cyberpunk Story B.
Er, have I mistaken something?
I don't know what A, B, C whatever is (is there a proper list somewhere?), but I thought what 4Tran wrote a sequence of events and the outcome is "information/power to fight against system", as in destroy the brains.
I suggested the possibility that the system stays intact (for most part) but Akane takes over (and the brains still exist).
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Old 2013-03-07, 03:28   Link #185
4Tran
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I made up the name, so of course there's no actual list.

The most common cyberpunk stories are where the system acts as the antagonist. Story A then would be the ones where the protagonist starts out either an outcast or downtrodden by the system, and story B is where the protagonist starts out integrated and invested in the system. The other story types are where the system doesn't act as the antagonist.

I only described the structure of how the story Bs function; not their outcomes. The outcomes are shaped by the particularities and details of the work in question, and are therefore highly variable. Maybe the protagonists win and overthrow the system, and maybe they all die horribly. To my mind, the outcome isn't all that important for cyberpunk stories anyways.
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Old 2013-03-07, 04:40   Link #186
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
May you explain in which country do murderers and rapists don't get locked up in general? (Some always gets away of course, but where do they "roam free"?)
Every single country in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Unless Kagari somehow committed a crime that warranted execution.
Yeah because one guy being taken out because he knew too much suddenly means that NOTHING is law anymore.

You people have no sense of scale.
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Old 2013-03-07, 04:49   Link #187
Kismet-chan
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Besides, from what I can see, Psycho-Pass has had an extremely conventional story. And this only becomes more true if you compare it to print cyberpunk. Urobuchi Gen is no Alfred Bester.
Of course it has. I'm just trying to be optimistic for once and hope that P-P will somehow end in a less stereotypical light. But this is an anime we're talking about, so that's probably an empty desire to have.
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Old 2013-03-07, 09:03   Link #188
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Yeah because one guy being taken out because he knew too much suddenly means that NOTHING is law anymore.

You people have no sense of scale.
The rule of law directly states that all entities, including the ones with the greatest power, are accountable to the law. That the Sibyl System has no inclination of doing so means precisely that Japan does not abide by the rule of law. And even beyond Kagari, we can see the treatment of Kougami, Touma and Makishima - and that's just the examples that we can confirm. Check out the difference between the Rule of Law and the Rule of Man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kismet-chan View Post
Of course it has. I'm just trying to be optimistic for once and hope that P-P will somehow end in a less stereotypical light. But this is an anime we're talking about, so that's probably an empty desire to have.
I am being optimistic. Psycho-Pass is at its best when it's dealing with straightforward plot and action. It does a much worse job when it tries to delve into heavy characterization or fiddling with exotic storytelling. Besides, Akane is the most interesting part of the show right now, so it'd be good to see more development around her.
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Old 2013-03-07, 09:32   Link #189
Dengar
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
and that's just the examples that we can confirm.
You mean the only examples that exist at this point in time. Exception. Rule. Sense of scale.

Not even going into the matter of how debatable your examples actually are.
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Old 2013-03-07, 10:44   Link #190
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
damn thats a good point, 250 people like makishima running the government, kinda like what we have today in most western governments lol.

2) is a point that gen is trying to get across, mostly as an allegory to Japan and its Xenophobic tendencies. This is the reason why he used the hyper oats as a plot point. Anyone who has taken a biology class (and still remembers it) know about the red queen theory. In which a system that has no to little biological diversity will eventually die. wither from outside influences or inside mutations. Sibil keeps that much needed diversity soo low that it FORCES people like makishima to arise, Makishima is the mutation, only this time, he is waay too strong for them to handle. but they don't know it yet. no matter how you slice it, this show is pretty deep.
This is a pretty insightful point you're making here. I have to admit that I never thought of the hyper-oats as having much relevance aside from being a convenient (but acceptable, imo) plot device. But hyper-oats being a metaphor for Japan's lack of internal diversity (particularly amongst its people) is a very interesting interpretation. And yes, it fits.

I definitely think that Psycho-Pass is, in part, arguing against the general lack of diversity in real world Japan. Part of that is in lack of diversity in thinking, but I also think some of it might be a lack of diversity in people (i.e. very little racial or cultural difference).

Sybil tries to regulate the whole of society towards a common denominator. It does so to gain greater peace and security. But in the process, is it stamping out too much diversity? Is it stagnating society, and leaving it overly vulnerable in certain ways? Hyper-oats points to how going with one idealized solution without diversifying your overall approach could actually backfire nastily.


Quote:
I do find it funny that after All this evidence debunking sibil and people still defend it?
In fairness, I think that most who are doing so are largely, if not entirely, playing Devil's Advocate. Which is largely fine. Having some people take up a pro-Sybil position just for argument's sake allows for a wider range of discussion and debate. It also forces those who enjoy critiquing Sybil, like myself, to sharpen our arguments a bit. Which in turn can help us understand Sybil better.

Back in Winter 2011, Kaijo and I defended Kyubey a bit because we felt that discussion was becoming overly narrow with everybody assuming the absolute worst about Kyubey without really taking the time to carefully analyze the narrative as a whole. It was a bit too easy for people to demonize Kyubey, and to just blame him for literally everything, which I think leads to a skewed and narrow understanding of the narrative.

Similarly, I don't think Sibyl should be blamed for everything here. The people of Sibyl Japan bear at least some responsibility themselves for choosing to put up with this form of government; for being too
short-sighted to see the very serious problems that the Sibyl system could bring and does appear to be bringing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
True, yes. But, under the context of the situation (Touma talking to Makishima), I'd still say he's being truthful (for most part) in this instance because Makishima would be the kind of guy to called him out if he was lying.
I think he's giving a (mostly) honest opinion, but we should consider where that opinion is coming from.

In Star Trek, there's an alien race called Cardassians. In their legal system, the defendant is guilty. Period. The court proceedings are simply a grand show of justice for the Cardassian people. It's to give the defendant a chance to dramatically show remorse over his illegal activities and beg for forgiveness. For us, this would likely seem abhorrent. For the Cardassians, it's the Rule of Law.

In fact, to the Cardassians, human or Federation justice seems ridiculously soft. In Star Trek: DS9, this is something that Gul Dukat mocked at least once or twice. And no doubt from his perspective, it really is ridiculously soft. So much so it might even seem "lawless" to the Cardassians.


And isn't this kind of like what we see here in Psycho-Pass? If your Psycho-Pass reading deems you guilty, then you are guilty. Period. End of story. Just like Cardassians put 100% faith in their law enforcement officers and intelligence agencies always getting it right, the people of Sibyl Japan put 100% faith in Sibyl always getting it right.
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Old 2013-03-09, 17:53   Link #191
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
Sibil keeps that much needed diversity soo low that it FORCES people like makishima to arise, Makishima is the mutation, only this time, he is waay too strong for them to handle. but they don't know it yet. no matter how you slice it, this show is pretty deep.
I disagree.

There have ALWAYS been people like Makishima in the world. People who have an urge to judge others, and don't understand their place in the world, and because of that they do violent things. You don't need a high tech dystopia to cause people like this to come crawling out of the wood work. They existed prior to the Sybil system being created. And nobody thought they were special, or fundamentally different than the average garden variety mass murderer.
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