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Old 2013-03-09, 16:55   Link #61
Artimus_Prime
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according to chap 314 shinobi train at the fire temple to learn some cool "enlightenment" power. if the author chooses to keep this info relevant (and i hope he does), perhaps hashirama trains here to learn all that sage stuff...is there really a break next week?
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Old 2013-03-09, 18:26   Link #62
Hunter
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yes, there are other reasons. like when i said tobi would be a mixture of obito and zetsu and that he and kakashi both use kamui and would have the same MS design...
Most people guessed correctly that Obito was part Zetsu since the moment he pulled out his arm against Danzou's henchmen and while the Kakashi/Tobi issue was really divisive with a lot a unnecessary derision coming back and forth from everywhere a lot of people still agreed that the jutsu they used were at least similar looking and perhaps even related. So no, I'd hazard that if what you say is true then it must be for another reason.

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Whether or not the author is using Tobirama as a factual source for sharingan doesn't change that Tobirama is still speculating...not valid at all..
It does change things quite a bit really. That's not to say a character cannot be unreliable especially if the plot requires him to be lying or mistaken -or if the author changes his mind later on- but while Tobirama's patent bigotry against the Uchiha is part of his character his comments about the relation between chakra, emotion and power with explicative picture depicting an Uchiha brain is obviously there to be taken as face value.
There is no omniscient narrator in the story, nearly everything we know is from information given by the characters.
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
according to chap 314 shinobi train at the fire temple to learn some cool "enlightenment" power. if the author chooses to keep this info relevant (and i hope he does), perhaps hashirama trains here to learn all that sage stuff...is there really a break next week?
Yes.

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-03-09 at 18:40.
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Old 2013-03-09, 18:41   Link #63
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
according to chap 314 shinobi train at the fire temple to learn some cool "enlightenment" power. if the author chooses to keep this info relevant (and i hope he does), perhaps hashirama trains here to learn all that sage stuff...
It doesn't make sense to search for the 3 legendary secret places to learn sage mode if it's there next to konoha. But i don't think you can learn anything from people that were easily beaten by Hidan and Kakuzu. Both Naruto and Kabuto would have beaten the shit out of those two if they used sage mode. Hashirama's powerup may be either something he learned at the 3rd legendary sage place or he naturally has such an ability. He can have this ability because of his special DNA, it's not unprecedented, take for example Juugo. He had the ability to heal and and other abilities that seem a natural power of his body. Also it would make more sense to steal his cells/DNA if his abilities were natural and not some skill (assuming Madara forced this battle to force Hashirama into activating this powerup and then steal his activated cells).
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Old 2013-03-09, 20:58   Link #64
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It doesn't make sense to search for the 3 legendary secret places to learn sage mode if it's there next to konoha. But i don't think you can learn anything from people that were easily beaten by Hidan and Kakuzu. Both Naruto and Kabuto would have beaten the shit out of those two if they used sage mode. Hashirama's powerup may be either something he learned at the 3rd legendary sage place or he naturally has such an ability. He can have this ability because of his special DNA, it's not unprecedented, take for example Juugo. He had the ability to heal and and other abilities that seem a natural power of his body. Also it would make more sense to steal his cells/DNA if his abilities were natural and not some skill (assuming Madara forced this battle to force Hashirama into activating this powerup and then steal his activated cells).
perhaps the 3rd place and the temple are connected…i just would like the scenario where hashirama was trained by gods. not just very old animals lol. besides, hashirama's summon during his fight against madara looks very monastery-like
I'm also fine with him just having superior natural talent as he is a direct descendant of the youngest son...
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Old 2013-03-10, 04:14   Link #65
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BTW, was it ever mentioned, where Minato came from?
I mean Kushina was from the Uzumaki clan which has a lot of different traits which help Naruto, but after all Minato was the one who became Hokage. So he must be from an important clan as well, don't you think?
Naruto even got his hair color from him, but so far the only clan with blond hair I can think of is Ino's clan.
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Old 2013-03-10, 08:56   Link #66
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Nothing is known about it but considering Sarutobi went from being merely the name of the 3rd and the surname of Asuma to the name of their whole clan with at least a dozen member on screen everything is possible.
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Old 2013-03-10, 11:05   Link #67
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Most people guessed correctly that Obito was part Zetsu since the moment he pulled out his arm against Danzou's henchmen
well not on this forum. you should check out the 'who is tobi' thread
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Old 2013-03-10, 11:23   Link #68
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BTW, was it ever mentioned, where Minato came from?
I mean Kushina was from the Uzumaki clan which has a lot of different traits which help Naruto, but after all Minato was the one who became Hokage. So he must be from an important clan as well, don't you think?
Naruto even got his hair color from him, but so far the only clan with blond hair I can think of is Ino's clan.
I think Kishimoto doesn't want for every lets say elite character to come from an elite clan. It would feel as if you had to be genetically superior to achieve anything at all. Also the world would feel smaller if every important character comes from a few elite clans.
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Old 2013-03-10, 11:32   Link #69
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well not on this forum. you should check out the 'who is tobi' thread
You're misunderstanding our mocking for something else. It's been speculated for nearly 8 years that Tobi was Obito, but many did not want to believe that Kishimoto was that obvious of an author. It seems we were wrong in the end, Kishimoto is that blatant and underwhelming.
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Old 2013-03-10, 11:37   Link #70
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With a few exceptions, I feel like in this story, a characters teacher plays a larger role in how elite they eventually become more so than what their genetic background is. Because most of the truly elite shinobi destined for greatness (particularly from the leaf) learned from Kage level shinobi at one point in time or another. And that trend seems to have continued throughout the generations.
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Old 2013-03-10, 11:51   Link #71
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You're misunderstanding our mocking for something else. It's been speculated for nearly 8 years that Tobi was Obito, but many did not want to believe that Kishimoto was that obvious of an author. It seems we were wrong in the end, Kishimoto is that blatant and underwhelming.
simply obito yes, but the theory that only a couple others and myself here supported was a mixture of obito, zetsu and madara's knowledge

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With a few exceptions, I feel like in this story, a characters teacher plays a larger role in how elite they eventually become more so than what their genetic background is. Because most of the truly elite shinobi destined for greatness (particularly from the leaf) learned from Kage level shinobi at one point in time or another. And that trend seems to have continued throughout the generations.
this can be looked at both ways though. i think it's more likely that those students were given those teachers because of their potential
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Old 2013-03-10, 12:46   Link #72
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
simply obito yes, but the theory that only a couple others and myself here supported was a mixture of obito, zetsu and madara's knowledge
That's a little confusing. Most accepted Zetsu's involvement (one way or another) the second they saw Tobi's arm fall off in a pile of white goo. And, it has been obvious for quite some time (since he said he was Madara), that he has had the knowledge of Madara (though the exact involvement wasn't known until recently). And, as I said, Obito has been a prime suspect for 8 years.

So, unless your prediction as specifically that Madara was Obito's teacher (which he wasn't really), then you really haven't been saying anything that different from what many already suspected (though few liked) for years.
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Old 2013-03-10, 12:55   Link #73
itachi-san314
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That's a little confusing. Most accepted Zetsu's involvement (one way or another) the second they saw Tobi's arm fall off in a pile of white goo. And, it has been obvious for quite some time (since he said he was Madara), that he has had the knowledge of Madara (though the exact involvement wasn't known until recently). And, as I said, Obito has been a prime suspect for 8 years.

So, unless your prediction as specifically that Madara was Obito's teacher (which he wasn't really), then you really haven't been saying anything that different from what many already suspected (though few liked) for years.
i dont know what to tell you. frame it however you want. the fact of the matter is that that is what happened and most people disagreed with it on this forum. most people didn't say 'yea it's obito but i wont like it'. they said 'it's not going to be obito'
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Old 2013-03-10, 13:11   Link #74
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
It doesn't make sense to search for the 3 legendary secret places to learn sage mode if it's there next to konoha. But i don't think you can learn anything from people that were easily beaten by Hidan and Kakuzu. Both Naruto and Kabuto would have beaten the shit out of those two if they used sage mode. Hashirama's powerup may be either something he learned at the 3rd legendary sage place or he naturally has such an ability. He can have this ability because of his special DNA, it's not unprecedented, take for example Juugo. He had the ability to heal and and other abilities that seem a natural power of his body. Also it would make more sense to steal his cells/DNA if his abilities were natural and not some skill (assuming Madara forced this battle to force Hashirama into activating this powerup and then steal his activated cells).
Just because there weren't strong people now(outside of Asuma's friend), doesn't mean there weren't strong people there before. Nothing Kishi writes would shock me given it is suppose to be a very famous ninja temple and it has a connection to the 12 Fire Guardians.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't mind Kishi showing what exactly the Fire Lord was doing while the Senju and Uchiha were killing each other. And what were the Hyuuga, Nara, Yamanaka, etc, doing? Was there any sort of control from the Fire Country or were the clans left on their own? Ironically it was their creation of Konoha that gave the daimyo any power.
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Old 2013-03-10, 16:05   Link #75
Ero-Senn1n
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Just because there weren't strong people now(outside of Asuma's friend), doesn't mean there weren't strong people there before.
I don't count neither Asuma nor his friend as strong. I mean relative to someone with sage mode. Of course there could be that they were guarding some ancient secret scrolls, that could be interesting too.

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Nothing Kishi writes would shock me given it is suppose to be a very famous ninja temple and it has a connection to the 12 Fire Guardians.
Well seeing how Orochimaru came to life again i agree

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Speaking of which, I wouldn't mind Kishi showing what exactly the Fire Lord was doing while the Senju and Uchiha were killing each other. And what were the Hyuuga, Nara, Yamanaka, etc, doing? Was there any sort of control from the Fire Country or were the clans left on their own? Ironically it was their creation of Konoha that gave the daimyo any power.
I don't think that the fire country existed, it was probably the creation of the 5 great ninja villages that also created a political system with larger countries. Similarly to how the 19th century nationalism created the large european countries that were previously small warring states.
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Old 2013-03-10, 16:54   Link #76
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Itachi, I'm not sure why you feel the need to be worshipped just for guessing some stuff right.
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Old 2013-03-10, 18:28   Link #77
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this can be looked at both ways though. i think it's more likely that those students were given those teachers because of their potential
I don't think that's always the case though. It's true that there are a few instances where we've learned that the reason a Kage level shinobi decided to train someone is because of their heritage and potential (ie: Oro/Sasuke, Jiraiya/Naruto).

But in general, we were told that teams and their respective leaders are assigned based on balance. So it wouldn't make much sense for the powers that be to intentionally assign genin with loads of potential to the top-tier jounin (and future Kage level) shinobi of their time. That means cases such as Tobirama being assigned to teach Hiruzen, Hiruzen being assigned to teach Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade, and Jiraiya being assigned to teach Minato were probably coincidences.

Ultimately, I think a lot of it comes down to coincidence or fate--which seems to be a driving force Kishi loves to utilize. That's to say, the best were destined to help raise the future's best and so on and so fourth.
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Old 2013-03-10, 20:14   Link #78
Ero-Senn1n
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But in general, we were told that teams and their respective leaders are assigned based on balance.
It was told to us when Naruto complained that he was with Sasuke. But we know now that Kakashi training those two guys was not a coincidence.

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So it wouldn't make much sense for the powers that be to intentionally assign genin with loads of potential to the top-tier jounin (and future Kage level) shinobi of their time. That means cases such as Tobirama being assigned to teach Hiruzen, Hiruzen being assigned to teach Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade, and Jiraiya being assigned to teach Minato were probably coincidences.
It can't be like that if you just look at how unlikely it is given the outcomes. Just look at the genin teams pre-timeskip, we see that all the guys that matter were in just a few teams, we don't see anyone else from other genin teams to make anything important in this war. But it's not only that, it's also logical to assign the most talented people to the best teachers, so they wouldn't be slowed down by weaker and less talented people. It's fun to analyze it this way, but the real reason is simply because the author wants to have a limited cast of characters who also have meaningful and strong connections For the same reason they were all almost the same age so they could take the same chuunin exam together.
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Old 2013-03-10, 22:02   Link #79
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It was told to us when Naruto complained that he was with Sasuke. But we know now that Kakashi training those two guys was not a coincidence.
Regardless though, if we look at teams from previous generations, team balance seems to be the aimed intention when designating genin to their respective Jounin leaders. Its why we have multiple instances of previous teams sharing a Naruto/Sasuke dynamic where one of the genin starts out as the untalented loser matched up with the blooming prodigy. (ie: Jiraiya/Oro, Kakashi/Obito)
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But it's not only that, it's also logical to assign the most talented people to the best teachers, so they wouldn't be slowed down by weaker and less talented people.
That only seems logical in a darwin-like system where the goal is to systematically have the weakest people die off. So I'd like to think that the people in charge of designing 3-man genin squads don't have that sort-of mentality.
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It's fun to analyze it this way, but the real reason is simply because the author wants to have a limited cast of characters who also have meaningful and strong connections For the same reason they were all almost the same age so they could take the same chuunin exam together.
I still think there's a little more to it than that. Just look at Naruto and Konohamaru. Even back when Naruto's skills weren't even on par with the average Genin, he becomes Konohamaru's mentor. So here we have a prime example of a future Kage level shinobi destined for greatness, coincidentally becoming a mentor of another shinobi who could foreseeably become Kage level someday in the far off future.

It's a reoccurring pattern throughout the leaf's history it seems. Fate dictates that if you're taught by someone who will become or already is Kage level, then no matter how unremarkable your background maybe or how ordinary your skills started out as (ie: Jiraiya, Sakura) you will be on the path to becoming Kage-tier yourself someday (if you live long enough)

Last edited by sayde; 2013-03-10 at 23:30.
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Old 2013-03-10, 22:59   Link #80
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well not on this forum. you should check out the 'who is tobi' thread
I know this thread, and the one about Uchiha Madara and those about the chapters where Tobi's arms were shown to be made of white goo which is why I can say that you're wrong.
It seems to me that you see yourself as some kind of Cassandre, laughed at despite always predicting the truth, yes? The problem is that apparently your recollection of those events isn't quite what actually happened and all your examples were fairly basic assumptions widely shared within the fan-base at the time.
Very nearly everybody assumed Tobi was made from Zetsu. Those who believed him to be Obito (all the numerous theories) thought it fitted nicely with his supposedly half destroyed body (and tended to ignore when his left arm was shown to be Zetsu goo as well which apparently turned up to be a mistake from the author anyway) and those who thought him to be some other dude from the past thought it was how *he* had managed to survive so long.

Even if we focus solely on the Tobi/Obito issue (which as I said was truly divisive contrarily to your others examples) you weren't right about that one either because while you believed him to be part of the Tobi riddle you thought that Tobi being "just" Obito was a stupid theory.
Unless I'm mistaken the one who was the closest of what turned out to be the true answer on this board was Hiking_Bear and even he thought that Madara had to have put chakra into Obito in his mother's womb because the timeline is so fucked up that what happened was chronologically impossible otherwise... But then we just learned that Hashirama spoiled Tsunade which is positively hilarious.
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