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Old 2013-03-11, 01:25   Link #4501
arkhangelsk
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Maho and Katyusha

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket View Post
Maho starts by being established as a young prodigy. Which is not just about tactics mind you, it's all around leadership.
As I said, winning against the Germans was something. However, given the level they displayed on manga where we can see them, maybe the battle was suck vs suck. See below...

Quote:
Despite having a crew that was overconfident, highly distracted, and not used to working with her, she still won in a duel in an assault gun vs a Tank. Oh, and it wouldn't have even been any kind of contest if Miho hadn't gotten incredibly lucky with the tree taking the first killing shot. DOn't see how that reflects badly on her.
Their enemy was a thinly armored close support tank, while they had an antitank Stug (note the clearly longer gun). Let's not pretend assault guns are just helpless against tanks. Stugs were great tank killers to the point IIRC some say Germany should have concentrated on building Stugs rather than Panthers.

The problem was that they were unable to get hits at ranges so close that ... darn it, even Erwin and her team managed a better hit rate in their first fight ... with a StuG.

Given their (lack of) skill they had no right to be overconfident against anyone, but normally, if you are a middle schooler vet fighting primary school newbies, it'll take enormous mental discipline not to be overconfident.

And as for the "highly distracted and not used to" part, I thought you were telling me up there Maho had great leadership. Shouldn't she have focused them?

As for the tree part, Maho herself was saved by a tree later on (I don't think you should be kicked out for losing 1/10000 fights, but if you lose or even tie to a bunch of primary school kids in this fashion you deserve it). Besides, they actually missed several shots before they clubbed the tree. Clearly, luck wasn't their primary problem...

Quote:
Actually since she's the captain, and the school is the undefeated champion until the next year I think that means she's responsible for at least four victories.
I said accomplishments. Since she apparently won cleanly at least, I can't use the word in an ironic sense, but winning against the likes of "Yoghurt", "Waffle", Polish 7TP, Chi-Has ... etc with Kuromorimine's lineup simply cannot be counted as an accomplishment, even at discounted value.

Quote:
I'm not sure we have enough information on the entire situation to disagree, but again this was the championship so the captain's got to get credit for at least three wins leading up to it. Since she remains as captain "this" year and racks up enough wins again to make it to the final battle it seems enough of her team still believes in her for her to be effective, leading me to doubt that the situation was such a predetermined debacle.
I'll agree that it is a valid interpretation for Maho to have enough surviving assets to be able to pull off a comeback, and said comeback may have been going off with at least some chance of success when Pravda pulled off a successful meeting engagement in the passes. On the other hand, Miho and Maho took a lot of flak in P.43-45 of this thread for the decision to use the lousy mountain path and without any reconnaissance or security elements. The only way to make it look like a passable decision, as far as I can see, is if it is a forced move - which will involve them getting clobbered rather badly at an earlier point, to the point such a lousy decision looks like the only way to prolong the battle and hope for a comeback. So in a way, the worse they were clobbered by Pravda's ambush, the better they look.

Besides, just look at the scene. If your mind isn't full of the idea that Kuromorimine are supposed to be the champs, do Miho and Co look more like members of a victorious army maneuvering to deliver the final blow or a defeated one running away from being hunted down?

Quote:
Again, there's the wins leading up to the finale,
Again, with the exception of the St. Glorianna's fight (which should still be discounted to half, because they still had the better line-up and St. Glorianna just wasn't very good at shooting - the ammunition expenditure before they clubbed the M3 was ridiculous) the wins against the likes of Chi-Ha school simply cannot count as accomplishments.

Quote:
and in the finale she would have engineered a knock-out opening blow if it wasn't for Ooari's incredible dumb luck.
The ambush would have been a good idea, if their gunners were up to it, which they weren't and Maho should have taken that into account when choosing her methods. As a result, the ambush was shouldered by the luck of one gunner (which seems to be on Erika's tank - the others seem to be beyond luck), and when that die roll failed so did the ambush.

Quote:
In addition whenever we do see her in action she seems not just competent but downright imaginative which so far has been a trait reserved for Miho.
I must have forgotten those imaginative parts. In fact, in Ep11 PV you can see Maho was working basically on not losing rather than being innovative.

Quote:
Oh I fully expect Ooarai's plot armor to protect them from Black Forest's obvious material superiority, but if Miho out smarts her sister that's proof of Miho's uniquely flexible genius not a flaw in her sister's proven track record.
Obviously, Miho will have to be better than Maho to win, but the PV gives me little hope Maho will do better than bare competency this round with potential for worse.

Quote:
Oh I dunno, I see Katyusha as a good tactician, who's so used to dealing with opponents who's morale will break at the first setback that she's grown over-confident.
A good tactician won't go for flimsy psychological tactics when she has the firepower for a sure win. Besides, you will notice that Oarai's morale didn't actually break - everyone was out for "blood" until Miho talked about safety risks. Since at that time they had no overwhelming need to win and are not into "Nishizumism", it was entirely rational of them to consent to surrendering in order to avoid even a small chance of serious injury. Once they had a reason, it wasn't long before the morale came back.

Katyusha is adequate as a platoon commander and shows it in last year's fight. But as a company or overall commander she isn't up to it...

But at least she does have redeeming attributes. The Pravdan girls must love her. They humored her whole plan to lose several tanks for a dogeza. Nobody seems the least bit bothered about the threats of the dark classroom. Or the need to spend 3 hours in the snow waiting for Oarai to surrender when they could have speeded up the process by blasting the church entrance wider followed by a shooting gallery. They might even have been game enough to add the nice finishing touch of precision shooting out 3 of Oarai's tanks (if you accept the theory the Pravdans deliberately shot at less than their maximum lethality there to chase them into the church, it is possible to interpret all those M-kills and F-kills not as "They only managed those" but "They sniped at the tracks and guns and got them", the latter of which would be impressive even at the close range).

You can actually make a case for it, because while they only got 4 hits, of which 3 were effective, they basically sealed off what passed for Ooarai's firepower. The StuG lost its mobility and along with it its ability to be a threat against not directly ahead, the Panzer IV's turret jammed and they even remembered to clip the M3's 75mm. What's left are a bunch of 37, 47 and one 75mm close support gun, none of which were likely in theory to cause damage to their T-34s and up.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-11 at 07:57. Reason: Decided to Open a New Post after all
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Old 2013-03-11, 03:14   Link #4502
Ithekro
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Accuracy seems to be fairly bad for all the schools. However standard German tactics would be long range fire, so Maho did set up the ambush correctly. Plot dictates poor accuracy it seems.

But on the other hand, this is sport. Could have been an off day. Every team has an off day.
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Old 2013-03-11, 05:04   Link #4503
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket View Post
T-34s are going to give you your best bang for your buck!

I'd do T-34s, preferably 85s but I'd be willing to take up to 50% of the 1943 model.

Then I'd pour any available left over money into Tiger Is, and buying StuGs when I can't buy Tigers. I suppose an argument could be made for sticking with Soviet equipment for lower maintenance and ammo costs, but we're talking such a small number of units I kinda doubt there's meaningful economies of scale on the logistics side.

But that's a tank-geek fantasy... what about a proper otaku fantasy, eh?

Who'd you recuit for your dream team and what role would you have them in? Factor in not just their ability to perform well in a match but also the fact that you need to have fan appeal. So outgoing characters or mo characters are important for sponsorships. Also these girls have friendships and rivalries that can improve or degrade their performances and that's a factor as well.

Say you could only draft 5 players from the one's we've seen on the show, and could only afford 1 at most of the obvious "Payton Manning" caliber players that have a strong reputation like Maho?

Pick the players before the tank? well,.... My choice would be

1. Captain : Darjeeling - She can provide stability and diplomacy that this all-star team ( = lots of strong egos ) needs. I don't remember seeing her make a poor decision. Her team made Final 4 last year and this year as well, right? ( Tank choice : Comet , Centurion, or whatever the best British Tank you can reasonably afford and maintain )

2. Vice-captain : Nishizumi Miho - you need a miracle worker. The reason I have her as Vice-captain instead of captain is that if you have all-star team, all of them will insist on doing things their way and Miho seems bit timid to keep these strong willed people in control. ( Tank choice : best version of Tiger I or Panzer IV you can reasonably afford and maintain )

3. Gunner 1 : Nonna - One of few girls who can hit something at long range ( Best Soviet Tank you can reasonably afford and maintain )

4. Gunner 2 : Naomi - Another girl who can hit something at long range ( Sherman Firefly or M26 Pershing , which ever gives better bang for buck )

5. Reizei Mako + Akiyama Yukari : I would give the 5th tank to this pair. While the captain or the vice-captain might need their brains and skills, if things get chaotic, you need each tank to be able to make the best decision possible, and this combo might be the best in processing power ( Mako ) and amount of stored data ( Yukari ) . If I have to choose only 1 of the 2, I would choose Akiyama Yukari as she would be the best choice as an aide to the captains. ( Tank choice : E-50 if permitted, though lack of real combat experience may still make this risky choice. Would go with best possible version of Panther, Panzer IV, or Jagdpanther , that you can reasonably afford and maintain. Do note that Jagdpanther has the upgraded transmission that would have solved so many of the problems Panther tank had )


--------------------

You mentioned T-34s, but I heard that in addition to problems with radio and gun-sight, it was a very uncomfortable tank to be in. I also heard that fuel economy of T-34 were not good. Would the crew still stick to T-34 if they were given choice to drive and maintain another tank? (Note: I did hear that T-34s were easier to maintain or repair, so that might be a plus to the crew who have to help out on the repair/maintenance ) Also are there any tanks you would not buy because they are too expensive, too hard to maintain, consume too much fuel, or too uncomfortable for the crews?
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Last edited by wontaek; 2013-03-11 at 05:46.
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Old 2013-03-11, 06:25   Link #4504
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Old 2013-03-11, 10:12   Link #4505
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Accuracy seems to be fairly bad for all the schools.
Well, that is undeniable.

Quote:
However standard German tactics would be long range fire, so Maho did set up the ambush correctly. Plot dictates poor accuracy it seems.
AFAIK, the Germans generally hate being too specific in their doctrine because it reduces their commanders' ability to adapt to the situation (which includes the quality of your own men). They probably won't consider Maho as having set the ambush correctly considering the results.

If Maho is going to follow a German doctrine that emphasizes long range fire, she should follow the doctrine by training her people until they can do just that. Not just skip the training and tell them to fire "as per doctrine" anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
You mentioned T-34s, but I heard that in addition to problems with radio and gun-sight, it was a very uncomfortable tank to be in. I also heard that fuel economy of T-34 were not good. Would the crew still stick to T-34 if they were given choice to drive and maintain another tank? (Note: I did hear that T-34s were easier to maintain or repair, so that might be a plus to the crew who have to help out on the repair/maintenance ) Also are there any tanks you would not buy because they are too expensive, too hard to maintain, consume too much fuel, or too uncomfortable for the crews?
I won't count build quality or radios against them since they aren't part of the spec and so the replicas they are using won't have these problems. Still, Russian doctrine emphasizes anti-infantry performance and their ammunition didn't get the advances the Allies or Germans did. While there are some uses to HE (such as, in GuPverse blasting shielding tanks off to the side) even in a world without infantry or antitank guns on the whole I'll want more AP performance without having mega rounds that are hard to load...

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Originally Posted by rocket View Post
Say you could only draft 5 players from the one's we've seen on the show, and could only afford 1 at most of the obvious "Payton Manning" caliber players that have a strong reputation like Maho?
OK, having gotten away from the rejects, I've thought about it and here are my picks.

I'll have to pick Naomi and Nonna. These are the only two super gunners we've seen, and gunnery is both so important and apparently so hard to achieve in Senshadou, that this has to outweigh any other condition. You see good gunner, get good gunner and leave everything else to wait...

To be honest, Nonna isn't that good a vice commander anyway. She's always fawning over Katyusha, instead of doing things a vice-commander should be doing if the captain insists on Eating-then-Sleeping.

So I have three more people.

Nishizumi Miho should take the equivalent of the staff officer role. She's probably will still be relieved to learn she is not commanding anymore, and she does have a bright or at least unconventional mind when it comes to Tankery. Besides, she actually takes gunnery seriously (Oarai gets a very high hit rate by Senshadou standards). In battle she can take the Reserve Platoon to the extent Senshadou has one.

So I have two more people.

Captain's job will be a toss-up between Kay and Darjeeling, with Kay having a bit of an edge. For one thing, Darjeeling is classy. That is not the same as diplomatic - in fact, one can consider her slightly sarcastic and a bit barby.

Besides, the Captain sets the tone of the team, and Darjeeling's team looks a bit too prim and proper for my taste. Further, I have to consider my recruitment. New Tankery pros probably come disproportionately from the big schools - which would mean Saunders, Pravda, St. Glorianna and Kuromorimine. The more carefree Saunders and Pravda tankers probably won't like St. Glorianna's more formal style.

Kuromorimine I'm not sure yet - the school is strict, but the students are variable. I don't see Erika doing well in St. Glorianna (though maybe we should stuff her in anyway ... might straighten her out...) Still, maybe this is all moot because the day I didn't want Maho (a Kuromorimean) probably was the day day when I lost all opportunity to recruit from Kuromorimine.

The upshot is that a team led by Kay probably appeals to a broader demographic than one led by Darjeeling. The final blow to Darjeeling is her team's gunnery, which even by the low standards of Senshadou is abysmal. No elite gunner. Constant misses at short range on nearly non-moving targets. At least Pravda had an excuse and managed to clip off guns and tracks, and the latter may even be interpreted as a sign of rather good gunnery. For all the flak I put on Kuromorimine's high school gunnery at least they are missing at long range. And Saunders can at least whine that their enemies were running as fast as they can.

The scene where all three tanks didn't put effective counterfire on Miho's PzIV as it swept past was almost Momo-worthy. As a final blow, remember that Senshadou drivers are generally as good as their gunners suck, yet a St. Glorianna tank was one of only about three tanks to lose control in show (the others being Volleyball and Mallard team tanks but they were extremely green and the St. Gloriannan tank was not).

If all the formality actually led to results Darjeeling would still have a chance, but it doesn't. So Kay it is, now we have 1, the vice captain.

Toughie here. I can put Katyusha here, she's not perfect but Nonna will be happy at least, and keeping your sniper gunner happy is important. Besides, she does have charisma, and if I ignore the wiseness of the COA selected in Ep 8, the COA was at least well executed. Kay's probably broad-minded enough to work with her, too - she manages to work with Alice after all.

If I ignore that, I can stuff Darjeeling in here, but somehow I don't think she'll be thrilled to work under Kay and the two's work styles are different enough I suspect my team's atmopshere will worsen. Nah, let's not. Let's go with Katyusha and she won't write new plans that revolve around the need for others to dogeza again.
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Old 2013-03-11, 10:15   Link #4506
tomexe
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Quote:
You mentioned T-34s, but I heard that in addition to problems with radio and gun-sight, it was a very uncomfortable tank to be in.
Not really a problem in this case, because all of the would be crew are under 5'6", the simple fact of using girls who tend to be short eliminates a lot of the comfort problems that mostly centered around the tank being low and narrow.
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Old 2013-03-11, 10:15   Link #4507
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Old 2013-03-11, 11:18   Link #4508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
You mentioned T-34s, but I heard that in addition to problems with radio and gun-sight, it was a very uncomfortable tank to be in.
They're not really problems by the time the T-34/85s roll out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
I also heard that fuel economy of T-34 were not good. Would the crew still stick to T-34 if they were given choice to drive and maintain another tank? (Note: I did hear that T-34s were easier to maintain or repair, so that might be a plus to the crew who have to help out on the repair/maintenance )
The very opposite is true. The T-34 had one of the best combat ranges of any tank in World War II. They regularly travelled 300+km without refuelling - in the Manchuria campaign T-34 units were still pushing forward after all the Shermans had run out of fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
Also are there any tanks you would not buy because they are too expensive, too hard to maintain, consume too much fuel, or too uncomfortable for the crews?
The late war German tanks all qualify - all of them were a pain to maintain, and they drank up a lot of fuel. Even over distances of 20-30km, it was preferable to move the tanks to a railhead and then move them by train than it was to drive them there.
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Old 2013-03-11, 11:19   Link #4509
rocket
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Their enemy was a thinly armored close support tank, while they had an antitank Stug (note the clearly longer gun). Let's not pretend assault guns are just helpless against tanks. Stugs were great tank killers to the point IIRC some say Germany should have concentrated on building Stugs rather than Panthers.
As you point out the ranges are close enough that the armor and gun classes between the two opponents are not much of a factor, which leaves the fact that one has a turret and the other doesn't as a very significant factor. StuG's were great tank killers... waiting in ambush. Their cost to kill ratio especially for the latter part of the war could have made them a good investment (actually the argument is usually for more StuGs instead of the new super "assault" guns). However that doesn't change the fact that in a one on one duel (totally a-historical situation) a StuG is going to be at a disadvantage.

Quote:
I said accomplishments. Since she apparently won cleanly at least, I can't use the word in an ironic sense, but winning against the likes of "Yoghurt", "Waffle", Polish 7TP, Chi-Has ... etc with Kuromorimine's lineup simply cannot be counted as an accomplishment, even at discounted value.
Quote:
Again, with the exception of the St. Glorianna's fight (which should still be discounted to half, because they still had the better line-up and St. Glorianna just wasn't very good at shooting - the ammunition expenditure before they clubbed the M3 was ridiculous) the wins against the likes of Chi-Ha school simply cannot count as accomplishments.
That's hard to judge honestly. We don't really see enough in the anime to judge how much of a "joke" the other teams lineups are. Until the manga is seemed that Anzio was going to be silly easy for Ooarai, but then it turns out they have a beast of their own and the fight is not so simple.

Until shown otherwise I'm going to assume that the other teams have at least some semblance of plausibility.

You are of course free to disagree, but I find motivational and behavioral suspension of disbelief harder to swallow than the un-obtatinium that floats their boats. So for my enjoyment of the series I'm going to stick with my assumption.

Quote:
Besides, just look at the scene. If your mind isn't full of the idea that Kuromorimine are supposed to be the champs, do Miho and Co look more like members of a victorious army maneuvering to deliver the final blow or a defeated one running away from being hunted down?
I dunno... just looks dramatic and stormy to me. But you're free to your interpretation until we see more.



Quote:
The ambush would have been a good idea, if their gunners were up to it, which they weren't and Maho should have taken that into account when choosing her methods. As a result, the ambush was shouldered by the luck of one gunner (which seems to be on Erika's tank - the others seem to be beyond luck), and when that die roll failed so did the ambush.

I must have forgotten those imaginative parts. In fact, in Ep11 PV you can see Maho was working basically on not losing rather than being innovative.
I just meant that the ambush was imaginative and unorthodox. Possibly the flanking move by coast road could count like that as well. Aside from Miho and Katyusha those are the only conceptually imaginative approaches we've seen in any of the combats.

Maybe Ep11 will change my mind, but I don't judge from previews (because they can be misleading).

Quote:
A good tactician won't go for flimsy psychological tactics when she has the firepower for a sure win. Besides, you will notice that Oarai's morale didn't actually break - everyone was out for "blood" until Miho talked about safety risks. Since at that time they had no overwhelming need to win and are not into "Nishizumism", it was entirely rational of them to consent to surrendering in order to avoid even a small chance of serious injury. Once they had a reason, it wasn't long before the morale came back.
Hmmm... I recall the scene differently. Seems like the girls are all demoralized, and Miho's giving them a pep talk on "you did your best no shame in losing to an expert team" rather than taking a group that's out for blood and making them doubt themselves. IIRC Miho builds up their morale again *after* they realize what the stakes are *but* they feel helpless to do anything about it.
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Old 2013-03-11, 11:31   Link #4510
rocket
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Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
Pick the players before the tank? well,.... My choice would be

1. Captain : Darjeeling - She can provide stability and diplomacy that this all-star team ( = lots of strong egos ) needs. I don't remember seeing her make a poor decision. Her team made Final 4 last year and this year as well, right? ( Tank choice : Comet , Centurion, or whatever the best British Tank you can reasonably afford and maintain )

2. Vice-captain : Nishizumi Miho - you need a miracle worker. The reason I have her as Vice-captain instead of captain is that if you have all-star team, all of them will insist on doing things their way and Miho seems bit timid to keep these strong willed people in control. ( Tank choice : best version of Tiger I or Panzer IV you can reasonably afford and maintain )

3. Gunner 1 : Nonna - One of few girls who can hit something at long range ( Best Soviet Tank you can reasonably afford and maintain )

4. Gunner 2 : Naomi - Another girl who can hit something at long range ( Sherman Firefly or M26 Pershing , which ever gives better bang for buck )

5. Reizei Mako + Akiyama Yukari : I would give the 5th tank to this pair. While the captain or the vice-captain might need their brains and skills, if things get chaotic, you need each tank to be able to make the best decision possible, and this combo might be the best in processing power ( Mako ) and amount of stored data ( Yukari ) . If I have to choose only 1 of the 2, I would choose Akiyama Yukari as she would be the best choice as an aide to the captains. ( Tank choice : E-50 if permitted, though lack of real combat experience may still make this risky choice. Would go with best possible version of Panther, Panzer IV, or Jagdpanther , that you can reasonably afford and maintain. Do note that Jagdpanther has the upgraded transmission that would have solved so many of the problems Panther tank had )
I like this lineup a lot!

Granted I have a soft spot for clam, reserved, dignified leader types (Jean-Lu anyone?) and Darjeeling is all that (and super cute - love the braids!). She's more forceful/decisive than Miho and would certainly get the best out of Miho's tactical genius and the other girls skills. Darjeeling's got the looks to appeal for the sponsors, Nonna will also fill a specific eye-candy niche and Yukari's geekiness and enthusiasm appeal to the hardcore tread heads.

Still I'd consider this to be a bit much of a dream team to be actually affordable. Darjeeling's going to be an expensive draft pick as a Captain with a proven track record. That's going to make it hard to recruit Miho (who regardless of how the last battle turns out will have made a name for herself) or Nonna (who might also have her effectiveness reduced without Katyusha - forget this team going up against Pravda - Nonna might turn coat!). Naomi, Mako and Yukari seem affordable, though I hope Saunders treats their ace shot well.
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Old 2013-03-11, 13:34   Link #4511
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Quote:
As you point out the ranges are close enough that the armor and gun classes between the two opponents are not much of a factor, which leaves the fact that one has a turret and the other doesn't as a very significant factor. StuG's were great tank killers... waiting in ambush. Their cost to kill ratio especially for the latter part of the war could have made them a good investment (actually the argument is usually for more StuGs instead of the new super "assault" guns). However that doesn't change the fact that in a one on one duel (totally a-historical situation) a StuG is going to be at a disadvantage.
What happened to such considerations as profile, or the fact that the flatter trajectory means a greater "point-blank" distance, a larger allowable error in estimating the distance even outside of point blank, and less need to estimate&pull lead (both of which are relatively hard parts for gunnery)?

Quote:
That's hard to judge honestly. We don't really see enough in the anime to judge how much of a "joke" the other teams lineups are. Until the manga is seemed that Anzio was going to be silly easy for Ooarai, but then it turns out they have a beast of their own and the fight is not so simple.
The anime portrayal of Anzio was so bad, any other portrayal of it can only be an improvement. Nevertheless, Anzio's fit might give Ooarai some problems if used well, but against any of the big schools...

For the other teams, I admit it's possible that they have better fit than Polish 7TPs or Chi Has, but the best plausible case for those other schools is that they have kit one step down from what Saunders, Pravda and St. Glorianna carry. If they have similar or better kit they'll be called the tough schools but there seems no indication of that. And if their kit is one step down from the others, they will be sufficiently inferior to Kuromorimine that it won't be much of an accomplishment to win.

Which makes one wonder how popular Senshado really is. The total number of schools participating, even accounting for the fact they are in huge carrier ships, is rather low and with the exception of the "greats", any time we actually get to see something of another school's equipment it is plainly as non-competitive as bringing a spruced up family car to Formula 1 racing. But that's another topic.

Quote:
I dunno... just looks dramatic and stormy to me. But you're free to your interpretation until we see more.
Unless Season 2 comes out, I suspect we never will. For a long time we'll have to place our bets on that ~45 second segment...

Quote:
I just meant that the ambush was imaginative and unorthodox.
It was one step up from just facing them head-on (which would likely have worked better), but "imaginative and unorthodox"?

Quote:
Possibly the flanking move by coast road could count like that as well.
If we are to assume that little scene in Ep7 was voluntary, then it might be imaginative, unorthodox and even bold. But then all the criticisms in P.43-45 of this thread come in full force. Naw, still don't want her in my team :-)

[quote]Hmmm... I recall the scene differently. Seems like the girls are all demoralized, and Miho's giving them a pep talk on "you did your best no shame in losing to an expert team" rather than taking a group that's out for blood and making them doubt themselves.

Here's what happened. They were chased into the church and Pravda fired a few more rounds at the church before stopping. Pravda's reps come in and demand surrender. After they leave, everyone was pissed by the arrogant demand. The Volleyball team (Isobe) captain was saying "Who's going to kowtow", Momo is going "She just wants everyone lower than her", Erwin was going "Fight to the end" and even the Freshmen team captain (Sawa) was going "Let's fight this through". Right up to this point, they were out for blood.

Then Miho says they are surrounded and if the Pravdans attack simultaneously there might be casualties. Her team expresses support for any decision she makes. It Mako who said first "It was great to have made it to the semi-finals. No need to push it." And that's when things started to get somber ... for a few seconds before Momo protests. This is where Miho effectively echoes Mako's sentiments and comes close to what you remember she said. Cue the runup to the Wham Line.

So yes, it is Miho that's splashing cold water, and then had to resurrect the fires in Ep9. It is possible if she just rode on everyone's fighting spirit, we won't ever have to learn about Oarai closing at all.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-11 at 13:35. Reason: Mild amendment
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Old 2013-03-11, 14:14   Link #4512
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It is also possible that Ooarai losses the Finals. Episode 12's title is "This Fight Won't Be Dismissed!" ("Ato ni wa Hikenai Tatakai desu!" (あとには退けない戦いです!) )

That could mean a draw or disqualification for all we know. Or the fight is so good it will not be forgotten.

Of Miho and Maho's mom want to dismiss the fight entirely and the daughters will not let her.
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Old 2013-03-11, 14:41   Link #4513
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Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
March 18, March 25.
Then it is time to re-watch it once again.
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Old 2013-03-11, 15:31   Link #4514
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For those arguing with manga material, I admit I have not kept up with it, but the parts that I did read did not actually match the anime perfectly. Certain elements were different in the manga. As far as I'm concerned, that means the manga is wrong, and also makes its trustworthiness suspect in areas that the anime did not cover. Until we see an anime representation of the Anzio battle, I will continue to judge it based on what the anime did show.
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Old 2013-03-11, 18:51   Link #4515
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It is also possible that Ooarai losses the Finals. Episode 12's title is "This Fight Won't Be Dismissed!" ("Ato ni wa Hikenai Tatakai desu!" (あとには退けない戦いです!) )

That could mean a draw or disqualification for all we know. Or the fight is so good it will not be forgotten.

Of Miho and Maho's mom want to dismiss the fight entirely and the daughters will not let her.
Quite frankly, I think its gradually becoming unreal that Oorai continued to pull the impossible...

If they actually win this one, then its just too perfect. Oorai should lose, keep the school and continue brushing up their senshado.

And hey, we leave things open for second season.

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Old 2013-03-11, 19:09   Link #4516
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The need to make Nishizumi Shiho admit that she was wrong overpowers minor things like logic. I cannot tolerate letting her continue.

Besides, this challenge is not impossible, merely difficult.
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Old 2013-03-11, 20:46   Link #4517
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Very difficult, but overcoming odds has always been part of Ooarai's narrative. So yes, I'm in the camp that Ooarai will win, but how will be obviously up to Mizushima. Entertainment has to be balanced with Verisimilitude.

By the look of the preview it looks like that, at the bare minimum, the Lee will be knocked out in episode 11. Kind of hard to defend it in the middle of a flooded field and without cover.
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Old 2013-03-11, 21:46   Link #4518
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It is also possible that Ooarai losses the Finals. Episode 12's title is "This Fight Won't Be Dismissed!" ("Ato ni wa Hikenai Tatakai desu!" (あとには退けない戦いです!) )
The 退け here is not Shirizoke (which is used for not only rejected and dimissed, but also beat back) but Hike (to retreat) - same kanji, different reading, different meaning - though I've checked and confirmed that such "subtleties" are lost on Google Translate.

So the title is more like "Now it is a Fight from which We Cannot Retreat!"

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
For those arguing with manga material, I admit I have not kept up with it, but the parts that I did read did not actually match the anime perfectly. Certain elements were different in the manga. As far as I'm concerned, that means the manga is wrong, and also makes its trustworthiness suspect in areas that the anime did not cover. Until we see an anime representation of the Anzio battle, I will continue to judge it based on what the anime did show.
I actually agree that the GuP manga shows severe deviation from the anime, to the point where it can hardly be treated as "a different point of view". Nevertheless, Anzio seems like too small a point to haggle on. Besides, it is rumored that they want to do a OVA on Anzio's fight, and if they do that, Anzio could only fight better than implied in that brief cut in the main anime (though I wish they can remember which tanks are shown to be alive, and stick with that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Quite frankly, I think its gradually becoming unreal that Oorai continued to pull the impossible...

If they actually win this one, then its just too perfect. Oorai should lose, keep the school and continue brushing up their senshado.
It is not impossible. In fact, it is in a sense easier than they ever had it before. Remember that they do have a Porsche Tiger. All Motor-Club has to do is land one hit on Maho's tank, which is "only" a "mere" Tiger and the flag can pop up. Maho likes leading from the front, so they won't even have to find her.

Quote:
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By the look of the preview it looks like that, at the bare minimum, the Lee will be knocked out in episode 11. Kind of hard to defend it in the middle of a flooded field and without cover.
On the other hand, it seems Miho does fix the problem with the engine. It seems a bit mean to let her fix the engine, and then Kuromorimine blows it up... Realistic, but a bit out of character for this show.

Besides, Rabbit Team is the only "original" (there from Ep1) team not granted its Moment of Awesome yet (I don't think they've even been graced with a hit yet), and this is the last chance. Surely Mizushima won't be so cruel as to make them the butt monkeys to the last...

Personal preference would be for them to take out Erika's tank. It'll be tough because the M3 is not known as a tank killer, but if you stuff a T45 HVAP into the gun (T45 HVAP won't be a standard loadout, but then the M2 gun is just a older, shorter version of the M3 gun that does use it so the HVAP should feed and fire at a lower velocity, there should be enough for a side, or even lower front hull penetration.

And it'll be the ultimate comedic end of Erika, who richly deserves such a slap.
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Old 2013-03-11, 22:38   Link #4519
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Personal preference would be for them to take out Erika's tank. It'll be tough because the M3 is not known as a tank killer, but if you stuff a T45 HVAP into the gun (T45 HVAP won't be a standard loadout, but then the M2 gun is just a older, shorter version of the M3 gun that does use it so the HVAP should feed and fire at a lower velocity, there should be enough for a side, or even lower front hull penetration.

And it'll be the ultimate comedic end of Erika, who richly deserves such a slap.
Oh I would love that. Having the team Miho rescues smack down the person who keeps getting on her case for having made the rescue last time would be quite poetic.

The only way to make Erika's defeat more demeaning would be to somehow have the Type 89 take her out instead, and I don't think even the best of contrivances could arrange for that to be possible.
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Old 2013-03-11, 22:47   Link #4520
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is not impossible. In fact, it is in a sense easier than they ever had it before. Remember that they do have a Porsche Tiger. All Motor-Club has to do is land one hit on Maho's tank, which is "only" a "mere" Tiger and the flag can pop up. Maho likes leading from the front, so they won't even have to find her.
I am afraid you are missing the point. If Oorai do win, then the ending would, at least for me, feel cliche. In addition, this would not end well for Black Forest either. After all, Black Forest marshaled more tanks than any other school and possesses very excessive technological advantage that others would simply envy.

Moreover, I believe humility can serve as one of life's greatest lessons.

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Last edited by Tak; 2013-03-11 at 23:16.
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