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Old 2013-03-11, 23:53   Link #4521
Random Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Moreover, I believe humility can serve as one of life's greatest lessons.

- Tak
And it is a lesson Nishizumi Shiho and Itzumi Erika desperately need to learn, FAR FAR FAR more than anyone at Oarai, who have all learned a fair bit of it already. Miho doesn't need humility. Girl's got more humility than she knows what to do with. She's had her own perceived worthlessness beaten into her so much over most of her life I'm amazed she has any sense of self left at all.

Oarai doesn't need a lesson in humility. They've learned it. They know they're not the best, they know they're weak, they know they're getting by on luck, desparate chances, and the improvisational skill of their commander. Kuromorimine, on the other hand, is so damned arrogant it makes me sick. Riding the high of their record of perfection, they can barely conceive of losing, and as we saw from the preview it makes them do stupid things. Like charging straight up a hill against a fortified position. If anyone needs a lesson in humility, it's them. Let them see that their cold-blooded, bloody-handed path of senshado is not only not the only way, but will fact lose to Miho's way of the tank.

That is what is needed here.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:15   Link #4522
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I am afraid you are missing the point. If Oorai do win, then the ending would, at least for me, feel cliche. In addition, this would not end well for Black Forest either. After all, Black Forest marshaled more tanks than any other school and possesses very excessive technological advantage that others would simply envy.
Au contraire, I think I know exactly what you are talking about but cannot agree.

I'll admit them winning is the conventional ending, but I don't think it is cliche.

In a usual sports anime, there are only humans using the same equipment, so the Ten-Year Champ team must have some redeeming qualities in competence even if they are jerks and the newbie team is probably much less good than the champs, so it feels cliched when the author pulls a Deux ex Machina to let them win anyway.

But this is Senshado and it allows absurd disparity in equipment, which also allows plenty of room to say that the old champs won more on equipment than real skill.

Certainly in their demonstrated skill indices, Oarai's team is no worse than the average on the other teams. Heck, even Rabbit Team's failure to score a single hit so far is matched by most tanks on the show. So they hardly "deserve to lose" by having less skill, only in equipment, and in this example, the Machina they need to win is on stage.

If anything, the whole Ep9 comeback is more cliche. The number of mistakes Pravda had to make to let them win is eye-boggering...

Besides, since I don't think their school closing is an acceptable outcome to you either, if they lose there will be another cliche as the author effectively cops out and rules that the school is saved.

Or perhaps you prefer a Bittersweet ending where they do lose, the school closes but they find happiness elsewhere (maybe Oarai transfers onto that very bare patch on Pravda's carrier where V/STOL Forgers take off and land - its dimensions is almost the perfect size)?

I can accept a Bittersweet ending - if the opponent is right. If it is Pravda or Saunders or even St. Glorianna, well, umm, OK.

But KMM? Please. Their philosophy sucks. Their XO is a Dog-kicker, the instructor another. Actually being much better technically than other teams might be a saving grace if you are enough of a cynic, but by the end of Ep 10, a strong impression is created that they are over-rated and have been getting by more on their equipment superiority than anything else.

Do these guys deserve a win? I don't think so.

For the Humility stuff I refer you to RandomWanderer's answer.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:15   Link #4523
Tak
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Kuromorimine, on the other hand, is so damned arrogant it makes me sick. Riding the high of their record of perfection, they can barely conceive of losing,
Quite the contrary. Erika may be arrogant, but she doesn't represent the entire team. At least one member of Black Forest went back and thanked Miho for what she did. Maho on the other hand, may give an aloof air, but she is taking this contest as seriously as Miho. Never mind that she often advises Shiho not to dismiss Miho immediately.

As for Shiho? I consider her to be a separate issue.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2013-03-12 at 00:37.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:16   Link #4524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
And it is a lesson Nishizumi Shiho and Itzumi Erika desperately need to learn, FAR FAR FAR more than anyone at Oarai, who have all learned a fair bit of it already. Miho doesn't need humility. Girl's got more humility than she knows what to do with. She's had her own perceived worthlessness beaten into her so much over most of her life I'm amazed she has any sense of self left at all.
I disagree with your assessment of Shiho, and I'll take a waiver on Erika until I know more about her background.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:31   Link #4525
Ithekro
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The impression we have of Shiho and particulary Erika is rather unsportsman like.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:34   Link #4526
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The impression we have of Shiho and particulary Erika is rather unsportsman like.
I don't think anyone can genuinely like those two characters unless you are a masochist

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:40   Link #4527
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Or unless we follow the "gentle" version of sports and ignore the martial of martial arts.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:44   Link #4528
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Or unless we follow the "gentle" version of sports and ignore the martial of martial arts.
Eh, I rather agree with Shiho's philosophies regarding senshado.

I just cannot stand her being a parent.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-12, 01:06   Link #4529
Ithekro
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Or unless we follow the "gentle" version of sports and ignore the martial of martial arts.

It seems to be the general point in Girls und Panzers is that this is a sport. The only team that seems to be holding it in the martial sense is Shiho's school style. And Given Maho's reation to Miho in the manga, one could assume Maho would rather play it as a sport but can't because of her family obligation. Thus her suggestion that Miho should find her own way (a suggestion that Miho seems to ignore for a few years until forced into the sport again by the current student council. It isn't clear why exactly. Probably because she still wants to drive tanks with her sister.)
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Old 2013-03-12, 05:31   Link #4530
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I wish this was real. And with girls instead of skeletons.
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Old 2013-03-12, 06:38   Link #4531
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Or unless we follow the "gentle" version of sports and ignore the martial of martial arts.
Maybe one point of making this whole show is to take a poke at "hard core" martial artists by combining their philosophy taken up to eleven and an "martial art" that still has more sources of lethal danger than most.
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Old 2013-03-12, 08:57   Link #4532
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It seems to be the general point in Girls und Panzers is that this is a sport. The only team that seems to be holding it in the martial sense is Shiho's school style. And Given Maho's reation to Miho in the manga, one could assume Maho would rather play it as a sport but can't because of her family obligation. Thus her suggestion that Miho should find her own way (a suggestion that Miho seems to ignore for a few years until forced into the sport again by the current student council. It isn't clear why exactly. Probably because she still wants to drive tanks with her sister.)
That feels like a bit of a stretch to me.. I can be dedicated to something, have a friend that doesn't perform well / can't commit / doesn't share the same principles and a) still be dedicated while b) still feeling favorable feelings to my friend and suggesting that he/she move on to something else..

A) and B) aren't mutually exclusive here, unless I'm missing something.
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Old 2013-03-12, 10:00   Link #4533
rocket
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[QUOTE=arkhangelsk;4586894]What happened to such considerations as profile, or the fact that the flatter trajectory means a greater "point-blank" distance, a larger allowable error in estimating the distance even outside of point blank, and less need to estimate&pull lead (both of which are relatively hard parts for gunnery)?[quote]

I guess we'll just disagree on this one, but for me if penetration and range are not an issue then I'll take a turret over a low profile, and certainly a turret over a flater trajectory but with a 20' traverse.


Quote:
Which makes one wonder how popular Senshado really is. The total number of schools participating, even accounting for the fact they are in huge carrier ships, is rather low and with the exception of the "greats", any time we actually get to see something of another school's equipment it is plainly as non-competitive as bringing a spruced up family car to Formula 1 racing. But that's another topic.
I think this must be where we so fundamentally disagree. Given the story set up I start from the premise that Tankery is a valid sport and assume the best of the implied details to make sense of the whole thing.

You seem to look at the onscreen evidence and conclude that it's not plausible, which is an understandable position, it's just not one I choose to take in order to enjoy my shows.

Given that, I don't think we're ever going to agree on how to interpret anything not explicitly declared or shown on screen. *shrug*

Quote:
Hmmm... I recall the scene differently. Seems like the girls are all demoralized, and Miho's giving them a pep talk on "you did your best no shame in losing to an expert team" rather than taking a group that's out for blood and making them doubt themselves.

Here's what happened. They were chased into the church and Pravda fired a few more rounds at the church before stopping. Pravda's reps come in and demand surrender. After they leave, everyone was pissed by the arrogant demand. The Volleyball team (Isobe) captain was saying "Who's going to kowtow", Momo is going "She just wants everyone lower than her", Erwin was going "Fight to the end" and even the Freshmen team captain (Sawa) was going "Let's fight this through". Right up to this point, they were out for blood.
Yup you're right, I remembered that wrong. The team was willing to fight back and Miho was demoralized. However she didn't actually demoralize the Ooari girls, the monkfish girls support Miho cheerfully, but before the other girls have a chance to respond the Turtle team spills the beans. When it's the school's survival at sake then they get depressed.

I think that still supports my assertion that Katyusha's plan that hinged on demoralization due to the odds rather than skilled performance of her team was a valid one. It almost worked... twice. Thankfully for the Ooarai girls Miho was actually motivated enough to use her genius!
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Old 2013-03-12, 10:02   Link #4534
rocket
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Oh I would love that. Having the team Miho rescues smack down the person who keeps getting on her case for having made the rescue last time would be quite poetic.
I'd love to see this... but honestly that seems like it'd be an even more forced outcome...

...still, can't wait to see how it ends!
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Old 2013-03-12, 10:46   Link #4535
Tak
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I'd love to see this... but honestly that seems like it'd be an even more forced outcome...

...still, can't wait to see how it ends!
We could have an accident with her tank, and its burning. Miho pulls off a heroic rescue... yay!

- Tak
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Get strong like ROCK! Not weak like Barack! Putincize now!

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Old 2013-03-12, 12:05   Link #4536
tomexe
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Au contraire, I think I know exactly what you are talking about but cannot agree.

I'll admit them winning is the conventional ending, but I don't think it is cliche...


But KMM? Please. Their philosophy sucks. Their XO is a Dog-kicker, the instructor another. Actually being much better technically than other teams might be a saving grace if you are enough of a cynic, but by the end of Ep 10, a strong impression is created that they are over-rated and have been getting by more on their equipment superiority than anything else.

Do these guys deserve a win? I don't think so.

For the Humility stuff I refer you to RandomWanderer's answer.
I think I could go for a "true" ending. Remember this final is live on national TV.

Oarai fights KMM down to the last tank and does lose, but having inflicted huge losses. Its an embarrasing win. When the news media interview the Oarai team and find out what they were fighting for there is a national outcry and the Goverment is forced by public demand and the demand of the other schools to continue funding Oarai.
Oarai doesn't do the impossible and win, but they survive. They get to come back in season two.
Shiho gets to endure being the winner, but is all but ignored by the media as they rush to cover the Oarai girls and the other heads of schools give her just prefunctory notice to give her the trophy before running off to lobby the goverment to keep Oarai in the system.

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-03-12, 12:18   Link #4537
Tak
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Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
Spoiler:
You know... the funny thing is, if GuP does manage to have a 2nd season, and that it goes international, it'd be really weird to see the actual international teams...

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-12, 12:19   Link #4538
tomexe
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We could have an accident with her tank, and its burning. Miho pulls off a heroic rescue... yay!

- Tak
Or, Ami steps in, since she is the ref in spite of an obvious conflict of interest, and when either Maho or Erika takes another cheap shot at a disabled tank with crew outside, she disqualifies their ass like SHOULD have happend many matches ago.

Shiho attempts to protest and Ami reminds her that she too has a obvious conflict of interest since BOTH captains are her daughters and the Nishizumi school is going to win the final no matter what. Mind you this event is on live TV. Shiho is suddenly hit with the taint that she was trying to rig the event by putting daughters in two schools!
If she tells the truth she is as humiliated as if she had been trying to rig the match.
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Old 2013-03-12, 12:27   Link #4539
Tak
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Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
Or, Ami steps in, since she is the ref in spite of an obvious conflict of interest, and when either Maho or Erika takes another cheap shot at a disabled tank with crew outside, she disqualifies their ass like SHOULD have happend many matches ago.
I think you are being too hard on Maho.

Up to this point, I don't think Maho would do that. Personally, I don't believe she did anything wrong throughout the show. Nor did she look down on Miho like Erika did. In fact, she was supporting her on a number of occasions.

- Tak
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Get strong like ROCK! Not weak like Barack! Putincize now!

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Old 2013-03-12, 12:29   Link #4540
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
You know... the funny thing is, if GuP does manage to have a 2nd season, and that it goes international, it'd be really weird to see the actual international teams...

- Tak
They can probably change the rules when there are international matchs, so things are more fair. Japan is clearing running on house rules, but done in a way deliberately to suit the plot of the need to introduce new tanks every few episodes.

I like to think there are international games where people all use the same tanks, or where firepower and/or armour is restricted. Any number of interesting rules.

After all, there are many types of ball games in the world.
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