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Old 2013-03-12, 12:37   Link #4541
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They can probably change the rules when there are international matchs, so things are more fair. Japan is clearing running on house rules, but done in a way deliberately to suit the plot of the need to introduce new tanks every few episodes.

I like to think there are international games where people all use the same tanks, or where firepower and/or armour is restricted. Any number of interesting rules.

After all, there are many types of ball games in the world.
See, the weird part is to have the actual international teams... facing their... well... expy.

Dorothea: Hey uh... Erika... thats a nice uniform you got there... it looks just like mine!

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-12, 13:01   Link #4542
Ithekro
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Or the other counties do the same thing. You might have the British national team running Russian tanks while the American team is running German tanks. And the German team is for some weird reason running Japanese tanks.

Or in the international tournament, all the teams have Ooari style mismatches of armor.

Though it would be weird is the international stage increased the number of tanks more. With 25 at the starting point, 40 at the semi-finals and 50 at the Finals.

At this point the number increase is to show the other teams are better that Ooari in strength without having to force the idea od the tanks being superior to those who don't know tanks. Being outnumbered is a simplier concept.

Ooari/Japan on the international front would (plotwise) be the underdog still and have less tanks than they need. If they hand over every tank used by the main characters of the other schools, they would still have only 17 tanks.

1 Panzer IV (Miho)
1 Stug III (History Team)
1 Hetzer (Student Council)
1 Tiger (P) (Automotive Team)
1 Char B1bis (Morals Committee)
1 Type 89 (Volleyball Team)
1 Type 3 (Gamers Team)
1 M3 Lee (International Films Team?)
1 Tiger (H) (Maho)
1 Tiger II (Erika)
1 P40 (Anchovy)
1 Churchill VII (Derjerring)
1 Sherman Firefly (Naomi)
1 M4a1 (76mm) Sherman (Alisa)
1 M4a4 (75mm) Sherman (Kay)
1 T-34/85 (Katushya)
1 IS-2 (Nonna)

If you add the other seen crews you might get the following additions:

1 Matilda II (Team tricked by Volleyball team)
1 T-34/76 (Pravda's flag tank)
1 M4 Sherman (Charile Team?)
(one more possible Black Forest tank...the one crewed by Miho's old crew)
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-03-12 at 13:13.
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Old 2013-03-12, 13:04   Link #4543
tomexe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
We could have an accident with her tank, and its burning. Miho pulls off a heroic rescue... yay!

- Tak
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I think you are being too hard on Maho.

Up to this point, I don't think Maho would do that. Personally, I don't believe she did anything wrong throughout the show. Nor did she look down on Miho like Erika did. In fact, she was supporting her on a number of occasions.

- Tak

A major plot point of Little Army is Maho did shoot an opponents tank when it stopped to assist a KMM tank that had become stranded and whose crew could of been in danger during the Jr High National Finals- and was also amazingly awarded the MVP afterward even with the bad sportsmanship. The umpire decided somehow that it was not shooting directly at a human or at an inoperable tank and also not disrespecting other competators, all of which are disqualifiable actions if this translation of the rules handout from the GuP website is accurate. To the Leagues credit (sort of) the same standard was applied to Nonna's hit on Miho's flag tank 4 years later in the high school finals. Although this continued downgrading of the rules will eventually lead to someone getting killed.
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Old 2013-03-12, 13:09   Link #4544
Tak
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Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
A major plot point of Little Army is Maho did shoot an opponents tank when it stopped to assist a KMM tank that had become stranded and whose crew could of been in danger during the Jr High National Finals- and was also amazingly awarded the MVP afterward even with the bad sportsmanship. The umpire decided somehow that it was not shooting directly at a human or at an inoperable tank and also not disrespecting other competators, all of which are disqualifiable actions if this translation of the rules handout from the GuP website is accurate. To the Leagues credit (sort of) the same standard was applied to Nonna's hit on Miho's flag tank 4 years later in the high school finals. Although this continued downgrading of the rules will eventually lead to someone getting killed.
And in GuP, its obvious Maho is supportive of her sister. You cannot deny that.

As for Little Army, I am not sure of its canon status, nor have I read it.

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Old 2013-03-12, 13:15   Link #4545
Ithekro
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For those that might be a little ahead in the manga, Is Anchovy a poor loser? That was the impression I got without understanding the conversation.
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Old 2013-03-12, 13:26   Link #4546
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
I think I could go for a "true" ending. Remember this final is live on national TV.

Oarai fights KMM down to the last tank and does lose, but having inflicted huge losses. Its an embarrasing win. When the news media interview the Oarai team and find out what they were fighting for there is a national outcry and the Goverment is forced by public demand and the demand of the other schools to continue funding Oarai.
Oarai doesn't do the impossible and win, but they survive. They get to come back in season two.
Shiho gets to endure being the winner, but is all but ignored by the media as they rush to cover the Oarai girls and the other heads of schools give her just prefunctory notice to give her the trophy before running off to lobby the goverment to keep Oarai in the system.
They could do that, but the original discussion is that the "Let them win" ending is cliche, and IMO this is at least as cliche.

Also, remember that the flag tank match scheme is designed to give the inferior team some chance. Remember in the Saunders fight, they won having clipped exactly two tanks.

What you are suggesting is nearly the equivalent of them losing an annihilation match. What is less plausible, them managing to land one hit on Maho's tank with the right tank or them destroying 19 German "animal" heavy tanks before going down?

As for the national outcry bit, it could theoretically happen, but remember that the schoolship does cost a lot of money and I suspect many people would be rational. In fact, from a realistic perspective is more likely for the bureaucrats to break their word even if Oarai wins (after all, it is only a verbal commitment, w/o witnesses), or delay it only to next year.

Another problem is that (and here I am being the cynic again) is that Senshado is probably not as popular as the government would like it to be. The low quantity of participants, the tanks most of them can be interpolated to have (the latter actually being more important), and you will notice that the viewing benches are often less than half full. They can broadcast it on TV, but any chances of a "national outcry" is sharply reduced if not that many people are watching.

Personally, if they are going to do this "Lose but Keep" business, I think the "they were scouted" route is more plausible and fits the canon better. Maybe the guy responsible for actually training up the national team sees the performance and quietly pulls in some favors.

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Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
Or, Ami steps in, since she is the ref in spite of an obvious conflict of interest, and when either Maho or Erika takes another cheap shot at a disabled tank with crew outside, she disqualifies their ass like SHOULD have happend many matches ago.
If the tank is disabled, the flag is already up and they won't aim at it. As for whether they can shoot tanks who have crew out for the purpose of rescue, well, that issue has been ruled in favor of Yes at least twice that we know of. The attitude of the League seems to be "Leave rescue to us. You gals keep fighting."

Quote:
Shiho attempts to protest and Ami reminds her that she too has a obvious conflict of interest since BOTH captains are her daughters and the Nishizumi school is going to win the final no matter what.
Wouldn't that interpretation would mean that Shiho has no conflict of interest?

Quote:
Mind you this event is on live TV. Shiho is suddenly hit with the taint that she was trying to rig the event by putting daughters in two schools!
That hardly qualifies as rigging. It is still Oarai vs KMM.

As to how embarassed she will be if she blabs the truth, it depends on the zeitgeist of the world, and what we can see (the ruleset and the interpretation of same show a clear martial orientation at the expense of safety, and no one actually gets disgusted by Shiho's attitude) suggests it is very much in Shiho's favor. People may actually be very understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They can probably change the rules when there are international matchs, so things are more fair. Japan is clearing running on house rules, but done in a way deliberately to suit the plot of the need to introduce new tanks every few episodes.

I like to think there are international games where people all use the same tanks, or where firepower and/or armour is restricted. Any number of interesting rules.

After all, there are many types of ball games in the world.
Your proposed rule will disadvantage countries that happen to use other tanks for various reasons.

I think it will be the same. Come on, we can almost excuse some schools entering competition with inadequate equipment, but if the government isn't willing to pay for a full set of equipment to their teams, then it is clearly that government's fault for not supplying even basic equipment.

I suspect international games will be much less interesting at least in terms of equipment, because by now they must have an optimised solution for which kind of equipment is most likely to win. You will only at best see only late-war German, American and British equipment (note I do not count Soviet equipment because their equipment is biased towards winning operationally. As a rule in the tactical fights that define Tankery you will prefer the Western stuff), and maybe they already got it worked out even more and then we'll see even less variety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
A major plot point of Little Army is Maho did shoot an opponents tank when it stopped to assist a KMM tank that had become stranded and whose crew could of been in danger during the Jr High National Finals- and was also amazingly awarded the MVP afterward even with the bad sportsmanship. The umpire decided somehow that it was not shooting directly at a human or at an inoperable tank and also not disrespecting other competators, all of which are disqualifiable actions if this translation of the rules handout from the GuP website is accurate. To the Leagues credit (sort of) the same standard was applied to Nonna's hit on Miho's flag tank 4 years later in the high school finals. Although this continued downgrading of the rules will eventually lead to someone getting killed.
Well, and that might tell you how likely it is your idea would work. You might consider it to be bad sportsmanship. They don't.

Besides, the actual scene shows that the tank hasn't even stopped and no one has actually gotten off yet. Presumably, the German flag tank was hiding somewhere, broke out of cover, and got shot. So your description is inaccurate anyway.

Nevertheless, the "shooting directly at a human" rule is known to be customarily cut very close almost from the start. Just look at Alice flinging rounds at the Type 89 tank even before Isobe climbs back in. It seems that as long as you are aiming at the tank (or at random rocks, snow ... etc), it doesn't matter if a human is in the blast radius... you might think that is dangerously unsafe, but they don't.

As for an "inoperable tank", the actual text says "競技続行不能車輌" (vehicles that cannot continue the match). Even if the whole crew has abandoned the vehicle to join in the rescue, the vehicle clearly can continue the match as soon as the crew comes back. Considering that people are shown to leave the tank for other tasks (such as reconaissance), to insist no one can shoot at an abandoned tank because it is "inoperable" is clearly unfair.

As for the disrespect part, that's an extremely subjective rule and I think it is all the best that such rules be applied as minimalistically as possible. A broad interpretation leads to potential for abuse - anything the judge dislikes can be bent to fit into the "disrespect" rule.

The rules in Senshado are minimalistic, and their interpretation equally biased towards allowing anything you can do in war. We might not like it (actually we do - it'll be a lot less fun to watch if they actually emphasized safety), but that's their zeitgeist.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-12 at 14:01. Reason: Formatting correction
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Old 2013-03-12, 14:58   Link #4547
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm20301702


You are looking at the real deal; a full replica model of the Hetzer with cake ingredients, complete with treads.

Quote:
Or unless we follow the "gentle" version of sports and ignore the martial of martial arts.
You reminded me of the original Karate Kid film, at the end, when the losing team's trainer assaulted his own student in the parking lot because he had the audacity to come second in the tournament.

Martial Arts is not war. Not unless you believe Olympic fencers should stab each other to death. If you can't separate bloodlust from self-improvement, then you lose the "art" part of martial arts.
And that's why Miho is different from her mother. Because to her mum there is no art anymore.
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Old 2013-03-12, 18:25   Link #4548
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You reminded me of the original Karate Kid film, at the end, when the losing team's trainer assaulted his own student in the parking lot because he had the audacity to come second in the tournament.

Martial Arts is not war. Not unless you believe Olympic fencers should stab each other to death. If you can't separate bloodlust from self-improvement, then you lose the "art" part of martial arts.
And that's why Miho is different from her mother. Because to her mum there is no art anymore.
And you're missing the point. Taking martial arts seriously does not bloodlust, no matter how much some "pacifists" want to think that way. I am frankly disturbed at the bigoted (as in intolerant) view people are taking when it comes to those who wish to follow the true meaning of martial arts.
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Old 2013-03-12, 19:01   Link #4549
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And you're missing the point. Taking martial arts seriously does not bloodlust, no matter how much some "pacifists" want to think that way. I am frankly disturbed at the bigoted (as in intolerant) view people are taking when it comes to those who wish to follow the true meaning of martial arts.
Not caring if people die in a situation where there is no justification for letting anyone die... if it isn't blood lust, it's sociopathy.
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Old 2013-03-12, 19:10   Link #4550
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As if people were actually in danger of dying.
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Old 2013-03-12, 19:15   Link #4551
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How well can you breathe underwater?
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Old 2013-03-12, 19:34   Link #4552
Ithekro
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Depends on how literal the idea of "for great victory there must be great sacrifices" is taken.

How many martial arts take death as acceptible for victory in tournaments?

Accidents happen, yes, but is it acceptible to use that to one's advantage or even make the situation worse to achieve victory?

Is it acceptible to lose and save another's life? There are now two instances of this coming up...with a probable third next episode. All involving water and teams going to rescue others.
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Old 2013-03-12, 19:52   Link #4553
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Since no one commented on the cake yet... the Hetzer cake is awesome. Though the construction method was more complicated than I thought it would be.
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Old 2013-03-12, 21:40   Link #4554
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I just might have to take that cake home for uhm....further studying.

Endless "Tasty cake" Soul
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Old 2013-03-12, 21:42   Link #4555
Sumeragi
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How well can you breathe underwater?
Would those driving tanks be that incompetent to not be able to get out of it?
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Old 2013-03-12, 22:10   Link #4556
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Would those driving tanks be that incompetent to not be able to get out of it?
You can be competant and still be unconscious, or not be able to open a jammed hatch, etc, etc.
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Old 2013-03-12, 23:27   Link #4557
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You can be competant and still be unconscious, or not be able to open a jammed hatch, etc, etc.
...Injured, thrown out of your position by the tank falling, tangled up in something, caught on something, just plain panicked... There are lots of possibilities. People have drowned in cars when they've fallen into lakes and rivers, despite the fact that those should be much easier to get out of than tanks.
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Old 2013-03-13, 00:24   Link #4558
arkhangelsk
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Would those driving tanks be that incompetent to not be able to get out of it?
Canonically speaking, yes. Do you propose we chalk up all such cases as incompetence and decide letting these "incompetents" die is an acceptable solution?

It seems that you want to defend "the old ways", yet you are enormously unwilling to accept that "the old ways" may well result in at least a few un-necessary deaths, especially when coupled with a relatively high-risk activity like Senshado, thus this denial activity.

Say what you want about Shiho, but at least she has the spine to bite the bullet.
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Old 2013-03-13, 00:39   Link #4559
Ithekro
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It makes be wonder how Shiiho became like that. Seeing she has two teenage daughters, one would guess she was in high school 20 years ago. About the same time Ooari closed down its Senshado program. Coincidence? I wonder about that.

Could Shiho have gone to school at Ooari? Or was her time in high school Senshado the reason Ooari stopped participating roughly 20 years ago? Ooari's symbol is fairly german inspired after all.
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Old 2013-03-13, 01:38   Link #4560
Sumeragi
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It seems that you want to defend "the old ways", yet you are enormously unwilling to accept that "the old ways" may well result in at least a few un-necessary deaths, especially when coupled with a relatively high-risk activity like Senshado, thus this denial activity.
No, I expect injuries and possible deaths to happen, as with any activity. The difference here is I consider the assumption that not automatically help equals bloodlust to be absolute intolerance of the essence of traditional martial arts.
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