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Old 2013-02-17, 11:53   Link #101
ellessarr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
...the 'one strike' is a cultural thing for the Japanese. No matter how much one dislikes it popping out in a manga, it won't go away, even if one thinks that the situation is not good for it.

This isn't the first time that Erza's one-shotted someone who was strong (Aria) while she was pretty much 'on the ropes' as well, having taken a head-on shot from Jupiter back then too. She's taken down Midnight easily and nearly all of her opponents have been taken out within a few moves. Azuma's pretty much the only guy who's made Erza go the distance and he would have won if he didn't use Fairy Tail's own magic against her.

Erza is over-powered, so is Laxus and Gildartz. Those three are nearly impossible to beat conventionally. That's the entire point. Laxus lost to Natsu and Gajeel because he lost his cool. Take Laxus mentally out of the fight and you can win it - if Laxus keeps his head together, you're done for.
yep in asian culture(where most of the martial arts born), doens't matter how many punchs or kick you can do in a fight, but how effective they are, the best fight is not the guy who take 9999 hits to defeat the enemy but the one who used the less hits, if you can one shot down your enemy then you are really amazing.

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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
ellessarr

If you didn't notice, you guys are the ones forcing your opinion down my throat just because I don't agree. My comments were originally Erza based only yet you people started to prove your point by bringing whole cast into a discussion which simply shows that you are the ones losing the argument since you can't stay on topic.

I simply replied to questions I was asked, I don't see my fault here.
Besides it is clearly useless talking to you people, you see only what you want to see and keep twisting my words and missing the point.

Different genres or not, you can easily use positives of each one in another.

Also telling me to drop something that I started to watch when only 25 episodes were out is harsh. I also was one of the people who insisted on bringing this show onto the main thread. It really is not that easy to drop something with what you've been so closely connected for years.
It is just sad to see it fall apart like that after having so much potential

I don't remember necklace part but if that's the case, I take my comment back. It is enough of an excuse, at least it means that others would not survive it.

Pinwheel10
That's exactly my main issue! No matter who(good guy), though for Erza it became very common, and how much damage they get, they are always fine. However, for them it just takes one strike to take enemy down even though they received more beating till now.

I won't even bother saying word "sense" since you people keep twisting its meaning so I'll simply say "ONE SIDED" and "UNFAIR". It makes villains look pathetic like if their punch = baby slap.

In Kagura's case it was so much worse because she unshielded "powerful" sword of hers and yet got shit kicked out even though she did so well with shielded one.
Why empethise on her sword when it was nothing special?

Anyway I'm stopping here, it is clear that we won't get anywhere. We keep seeing things differently.
man again this is a "shounen" cliche the hero get beat to death to nearly the end get a "miraculous recover" and overpower the enemy
again when mashima was to start to write fairy tail he told in a interview exactly what gonna happen, he not made any false promisse about the plot, was very clear:

lightheaded(almost no deaths with the heros aways wins)
comedy(one of the 3 more important focus of the manga by mashima, this means who if you want a dark or tragic story you loose your time)
Friendship and family(no matter of what can happen, "nakama"(friend) and family bounds aways come first

after that 3 main plots then come the secondary plots:

- lucy life after joining FT(she is the main protagonis of this work, natsu is the second)
- natsu search for igneel and others dragons
- what happen in the 777 year when all dragons vanish and lucy mother died
- the adventures of the FT guild

having this is mind then after 300+ manga chapters, 160+ anime episodes, 4 ovas and one movie, FT aways gonna continue wins all the fights, aways erza gonna be overpower(even more than natsu), aways gray gonna strip the cloths, aways natsu gonna have transport issues we only gonna see arc related only good peoples diyng(1 or 2), aways the bad guys gonna be folderized, maybe we gonna get little changes here and there but in overall nothing big gonna change, then is important for you dont have impossible hopes of change(ft loose, peoples dying, erza being weak, big plot change, being more tragic and darkness), if you want something more dark then read mashima previous work rave master was much more dark than FT(and that is the reason who mashima made a completely different work, he was a few disgusted with too much darkness in his previous work).

Last edited by ellessarr; 2013-02-17 at 12:39.
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Old 2013-02-17, 11:59   Link #102
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
Geez, it's like I'm talking to a rock -_-

You guys only keep hearing what you want to hear to make yourself look better.
Seriously, kitten, why are you still here? Honestly? Why are you pushing your subjective personal reasonings onto us? We aren't saying these things to "make ourselves look better" (and I don't know how you got that out of our responses). We are simply telling you what Japanese culture is like, and what entertainment is like for the masses. Where these two combine, you get things like Fairy Tail.

Thus, what *you* want is not what the majority want. I've come across stuff like this before, where the majority liked something I didn't. I simply left that fandom.

It sucks, I know, to have people like something that I feel was fairly bad. Hell, I felt Madoka was mediocre at best, and flawed at worst, and yet people treat it as the greatest thing ever. But you know what? I simply left the fandom (though for that one, I only stuck around long enough to see the short anime series end). I let people enjoy the things they like, instead of hanging around, hating on them and calling them wrong.

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For starters, an unconscious Natsu in a water would never be able to jump back in a fight.
You'll want to check into physics. Specifically, what happens to a body when it hits water after a long enough fall. It's like hitting concrete. If you wanted realism, then Natsu's insides would have been turned into jelly, and he would be dead.

I won't go into other series, because we've already wandered off the topic of this thread long enough. Suffice it to say, Fairy Tail is not Serei, it is not Full Metal Alchemist, and it is not anything else you could mention. It's not going to behave like them. It is not going to treat physics like they do. It is not going to have their stories. Ever. Complaining that it doesn't, is just tilting at windmills. You may as well complain that Fairy Tail isn't turning into a soap opera where everyone is sleeping with everyone else.

It's simply Not. Going. To. Happen.

Erza is going to continue one-shotting people. I'm just letting you know what to expect, so when you complain about it later, you'll at least be warned. She, like every other shonen hero, is going to take damage over and over, and yet stand up over and over, and finally get that surge of strength to end the fight. Perhaps she'll cause some damage during the fight that ultimately allow the one-shot to work. Or maybe Mashima will surprise us with something else; See the Hades fight where it was the 3 cats taking out the heart that beat Hades. That's actually fairly interesting and unique among shonen.

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Won't argue, shounen gradually turns into the most pathetic genre I have ever seen. It clearly is meant for children who don't care about logic. Most of them don't even know what logic is anyway.

The only reason why I still watch shounen from time to time, is to find gems like FMA.
Again, why are you still here, then? If you've established how much Fairy Tail sucks, and we're telling you it won't get any better, why do you continue to torture yourself watching it? Masochistic? I've dropped plenty of shows I felt were bad in the past, when I couldn't stomach watching them.

The only reason I can think of, is that you're trolling. And if that is true, I guess I am feeding the troll.

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I don't know how well things will go later but right now Magi has a potential to be great.
Then perhaps you should stick to the Magi forum? Or would you like me to hop over there and tell people over and over and over again how much Magi sucks because it is totally unrealistic? (side note: I don't really know, as I have only watched a couple of episodes, but for some reason, it didn't appeal to me, so I stopped watching, instead of bitching over and over in a Magi forum).
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Old 2013-02-17, 17:37   Link #103
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Just wondering - what do people reckon the extent of Erza's telekinesis was around the last time it could be checked? (weight/size liftable, force, range etc)

Last edited by Inept Forum User; 2013-02-17 at 18:40. Reason: Editing question. Still unsure.
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Old 2013-02-17, 19:59   Link #104
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ellessarr

As a martial artist, I do agree with that logic.

However, problem with FT is that it works only for main cast.
Let's take Erza VS Kagura. If Erza had delivered all those blows to Kagura, she would be unconscious lying on the floor.
If Kagura were to deliver a hit like Erza, Erza would still be fine like nothing happened.

It is simply one sided.
FT is having exactly same problem as Bleach, fights are predictable and give you no thrill.

Kaijo
As I said in other post I want for this useless argument to die down so I'll only comment on few small things and will leave out the rest since you still don't get me.

"I'm just letting you know what to expect"
That's the main problem... fiction, especially adventure and action one, are supposed to surprise audience and not give it what is expected all the time. It simply becomes redundant and shows lack of creativity on authors part.
Stuff like that is called cliche.


I'm an open minded person and try to watch everything I can. I drop stuff very rarely, only when it is a clear disaster with no potential what so ever. Besides finding good stuff becomes harder and harder lately.

I have never even once asked for anything impossible. Everything I said could be easily used in FT setting without making it OOC. It would only make things better.

If raging on Magi will make you feel better, go ahead. Letting steam out is needed from time to time anyway.
Episode 18 is a perfect place to start
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Old 2013-02-17, 20:59   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
Just wondering - what do people reckon the extent of Erza's telekinesis was around the last time it could be checked? (weight/size liftable, force, range etc)
It's more limited to her magic and her control of weapons/armor. And it's not so much coming from her, as it is from her armor. Her Heaven's Wheel armor is usually the one with any kind of telekinetic powers, and that is limited to controlling multiple swords/spears.

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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
Kaijo
As I said in other post I want for this useless argument to die down so I'll only comment on few small things and will leave out the rest since you still don't get me.
It's one facet of human nature, that we really want people to understand us. Unfortunately, those who want to be understand, generally don't put out the effort to understand those around them. If you truly want to be understood, you need to understand other people first.

You want Fairy Tail to be more realistic. We explained what that realism would really mean. You chose to ignore that reality in favor of a reality in your head, that isn't reality at all. So, what you should have said was: "I want Fairy Tail to be written the way I want it to, to entertain me." And I kinda addressed that by saying that no series is ever written for one person, and no series will please everyone. Mashima is writing a series that appeals to many people, enough to keep it going, and that's just how it is.

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"I'm just letting you know what to expect"
That's the main problem... fiction, especially adventure and action one, are supposed to surprise audience and not give it what is expected all the time. It simply becomes redundant and shows lack of creativity on authors part.
Stuff like that is called cliche.
They are actually more accurately called tropes. If you haven't visited TV tropes before, I suggest you do. Every story in existence will use these same tropes/cliches, and the use of them is not, in and of itself, bad. You can't escape having heroes, and you can't escape having heroes confront the villains and fighting them. And at the end of the day, unless you are writing a tragedy, the heroes will beat the villains. Even subverting the trope/cliche, is just another trope/cliche. And at the end of the day, Mashima(and the studio supporting him) is gonna do what sells and makes him money. And he's making money currently.

The good news is, things do slowly change over time. Mashima has introduced concepts outside of typical shonen(strong males and females fighting together), and by showing that the fans will still stick to it, we can hold out hope that the next shonen manga to come along will pick up those concepts and introduce even more changes. If you think things are cliche and bad now, then you haven't seen ANYTHING. Go back and watch some earlier shonen, like Dragon Ball Z. The genre has evolved, and will continue to do so.

And for God's sake, don't go back and watch what we had to put up with in the 80's and 90's, heh. You wanna talk cliche? You don't know cliche! Compared to what we had, Fairy Tail is a huge breath of fresh air. The older fans among us know this, which is probably why we like Fairy Tail, because we know how different it really is.

Quote:
I have never even once asked for anything impossible. Everything I said could be easily used in FT setting without making it OOC. It would only make things better.
You wanted realism, and you wanted Natsu surviving being tossed from a tall tower and landing in the water. If we take those two things, we find that it is something that Natsu would not survive.
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Old 2013-02-18, 05:06   Link #106
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^You clearly didn't get a thing of what I wanted to say -_-

Oh well, I'm stopping here.
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Old 2013-02-18, 18:19   Link #107
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I get where Kitten is coming from. I felt like that about bleach from the arrancar arc. It's that in-between stage where you still like something but you only ever notice the bad things about it any more. With bleach I stopped caring and started to enjoy the train-wreck.

Still love FT though.
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Old 2013-02-18, 20:19   Link #108
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Oh, I know where he/she is coming from, too. I'd agree with you about using Bleach as an example, because it was one I liked during the Rukia arc. After that, though, it kinda fell apart for me. It focused strictly on fights, and dropped all that interesting personal interaction and deeper conversation about things beyond just fighting.

But here's the thing: I didn't go into Bleach forums and bitch about it. I recognized that Kibo was writing it for people that weren't me, and it wasn't about to turn back into what I liked. So, I realized I could either bitch about it which would accomplish nothing except make me look like an ass. Or I could simply hang up my Bleach banner and go watch something else.

So, I think we all understand kitten's feelings and point of view. It's just that kitten hasn't come to understand why bitching is ultimately pointless and self-destructive. Especially when the reasons given get proven false. We've said for a long time that whether you like or dislike something, is a personal subjective choice. You don't need to try and justify it by claiming things that aren't objectively true.
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Old 2013-02-19, 16:34   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It's more limited to her magic and her control of weapons/armor. And it's not so much coming from her, as it is from her armor. Her Heaven's Wheel armor is usually the one with any kind of telekinetic powers, and that is limited to controlling multiple swords/spears.
Can I check something? In the first sentence, are you referring to her magic ('The Knight' or general magic power?) and owned equipment as limits as to where it can reach or as the most common origin (though not the sole origin)? (sorry for not writing this bit well, I wasn't sure how to put it into words)

Now that I think about it, other than in Heaven's Wheel, the Tower of Heaven (her first use of magic) and any anime-only bits which most likely don't count anyway (such as the fight with Jose), have there been any instances where she has made use of it?

Last edited by Inept Forum User; 2013-02-19 at 16:58. Reason: Trying to improve post. Can't seem to put it into words.
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Old 2013-02-19, 17:17   Link #110
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Well, there was that bit where she was in her Black Wing Armor against Jose and was controlling the sword to try and run herself through...but that differs from what happened in the manga because Jose's control broke when Makarov entered the scene. I wonder if it was the anime's way of saying 'Hey, she can control her swords like this in any armor, not just Heaven's Wheel'.

Her duel against Midnight is an example (Chapter 154). When she equipped the Robe of Yuan and Midnight wrapped the robe around her, she summomed the swords above him. At the very least, she can control where the weapons summon from, even without wearing the Heaven's Wheel Armor. But to actively control them, as was demonstrated when she first awakened her magical power, seems she reserves that only for Heaven's Wheel - it might allow her to focus better on the telekenetic part of her power since she equipped that one to take out 200 individual targets at the same time.
Its too bad that she's not developed the actual telekenetic control of her power - pulling any weapon in range to her and fighting on with that, or controlling several swords at once all around her to attack and defend at the same time without having to actually hold them - buuut that might have made her too game-breaking of a character and as some people have said in different ways, Erza is 'game-breaking' enough - literally. If she was to ever reach that level of power, definitely a Wizard Saint.
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Old 2013-03-10, 21:11   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Crimson Cloud View Post
Ehh... I dislike how people say that, you know, it's shonen and what would you expect? But honestly... Dragon Ball/Z was also shonen, and you barely could guess what the hell would happen. Yeah there were power ups, for bad guys as well. Goku technically didn't take out Vegeta, he needed help with Frieza before he reaches SSJ level and he sacrificed himself to save others when Cell was about to blow up. My point is that it had verity. It's ok for me to see Erza slash her opponent with one hit after equipping a new armor. It's ok seeing it second time... alright even a third time. But fourth and fifth time is enough. And I don't want to be a shallow person and calling the reused thing an ''epic fight.'' As much as I loved Fairy Tail, I'm dropping it.
After fourth or fifth time? No variety?

Erza's fights per arc:
Lullaby arc - Took out some trash, and assisted against the flute demon.
Galuna island - She just tossed a spear at the sky with a new armor
Phantom arc - Blocked Jupiter beam, charged at Aria slicing his airspace apart and finished him with one blow (but using an armor we had seen before). And then repeatedly failed against Jose (despite pulling out a new armor).
Heaven's Tower - Was beaten and captured by her previous friends. Fought Ikaruga for awhile, failing at first, before using her now infamous bandage armor (might be considered #1 as per your complaint, but she had to struggle a bit first to learn her opponent's attacks and grow as a character). Fought against Jellal, but failed.
Thunder Palace arc - Was stoned for most of it, fought Evergreen and won with a bluff. Briefly tangled with Laxus, before switching with Natsu. New armor, but she didn't beat Laxus with it.
Oracion Seis - Lost to OS badly at first, using a new armor. Fought Midnight, and as before, struggled for a time to understand his attacks before pinpointing his weaknesses; saw through his illusion after a bit, and defeated him. Did use a new armor, but that was more defense against his first "form." Still, might be considered #2 (defeat someone with one slash using a new armor).
Daphne arc - fought some lizardmen and helped attack the big dragon
Edolas arc - Fought her counterpart in a longish fight, that ended with them both on the ground; brought out a new armor, but only earned her a draw. Might be considered a #3, though.
Tenrou Island arc - Briefly fought Meldy before Juvia took over, then fought Azuma. As before, struggled for awhile, before finally managing to beat him (no new armor this time). Joined in the fight against Acnologia, but lost along with the rest.
Clock arc - I don't remember this arc too well, and no desire to rewatch it at this time, but she did fight against Cobra 2.0, and couldn't beat him until he got distracted(and Cobra had her beat). No new armor.
Magic Games arc - Takes on the 100 monsters, but no new armor. Tangled with Kagura, but managed to beat her; no new armor. Finally, in the latest manga installment, we see her pull out a new armor to win against Minerva after tangling with her for a bit to learn her attacks.

So, grand total of Erza pulling out a new armor to defeat someone? Possibly 3 times, if we're being liberal and really stretching it. In all of her tough fights, she usually gets beat down at least a bit, before learning her opponent's attacks and then choosing an armor to use against them. And in not all cases did a new armor help.

But 4 or 5? That would be pushing it. And we definitely see a great variety in her fights; wins, losses, and even a draw.

We've seen a grand total of 16 armors from Erza (including the seduction and Farewell armors), so considering she is supposed to have over a hundred, we've barely scratched the surface. Erza is consistently shown to be one of the strongest, smartest, and most versatile mages around. She holds back and only uses as much power as she needs to. Takes time to learn her opponent's attack, and then hits them with the best armor/weapon combo. In other words, she brings skill, as well as power, to her fights. Not just pure shonen power.

That is a big reason that I, and many others like her. It's extremely rare to see such an ass kicking female in shonen, let alone one who is generally stronger than the main character. Her backstory, relationships, and feelings that give her depth, are a decidedly welcome bonus.

You don't have to like her or the series, and I commend you on the decision to drop a series that no longer interests you. But for those of us who remain, I thought I'd clear up a few of the misconceptions.

Edit: To add a bit more about the comparison with DBZ... while it is true there is some variety there, most often it is Goku (or Gohan) who powers up midfight and turns it into a one-way pwn match. The Goku/Vegeta fight was actually one of the best fights of the entire series, and one of the reasons I kept watching into the Frieza arc. But I mostly dropped it after that, after getting tired of how useless practically everyone else was. Little did I know, that DBZ was gonna turn all the humans into repeated target practice (see: "Krillin owned" counter from DBZ abridged). One of the big reasons I like Fairy Tail, is that everyone in FT usually has a good moment to shine in a fight in each arc. At least the mains, if not the secondaries, too.

And at least we know Erza has a bunch of armors, so her pulling a new one out in a fight makes sense. Goku suddenly going Super Saiyan (and then every other Saiyan, as they hit SS2, SS3, and SS4) was pulled out of nowhere. If you think Erza's armors are bad, you must think Goku's SS-asspull was horrible.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2013-03-10 at 21:28.
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Old 2013-03-11, 02:02   Link #112
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Tenrou Island arc - Briefly fought Meldy before Juvia took over, then fought Azuma. As before, struggled for awhile, before finally managing to beat him (no new armor this time). Joined in the fight against Acnologia, but lost along with the rest.
Technically speaking, she pulled out a "new" armor when fighting Juvia and Lisanna, and used it to win, which technically brings the count up to four.

But in general yeah. Lots of people complain about Erza "always" pulling out a new armor to win, when it's seldom been something she's actually done. They also complain about her "always" pulling out "ultimate" armors when she's pulled out three armors that could be described as that, and only twice has said armor gotten her victory, and only one time has the armor remained intact afterwards.

Really, some of the complaints seem to be a function of people forgetting that Erza is not Lucy.

Lucy was a rookie, just starting out at the guild. She had a limited number of keys, and no further spells. For her to get new powerful and unique gold keys, we needed to know how she managed to obtain something that isn't normally sold in stores. Likewise for spells we needed something that inspired her to learn a given spell, etc. How she obtained her starter keys on the other hand is just trivia.

Erza on the other hand is a veteran. She's spent four years as an S-Class wizard. She's been on dozens of S-Class missions with their higher rewards. She casually pays 500,000 jewels a month to have enough storage space to store all the weapons and armor she's collected. Over a hundred armors that she carries with her, hundreds of weapons. We don't need to know how she got all of them. Like the gold keys Lucy started with, knowing where Erza got her weapons and armor is just trivia. Where did Erza get the Purgatory Armor? An S-Class mission. Where did Erza get the Nakagami Armor? An S-Class mission. Where did Erza get the Heavean's Wheel armor? Bought it in a store with money earned from an S-Class mission. Those are the sorts of answers you'll see if they start explaining. They're as relevant as the question "Where did Erza get the "Evil Crushing Spear" she used on Galuna Island. They're all trival because we know Erza is a veteran with lots of money, and a large store room. It's expected that as a veteran she'll have some rare and unique stuff lying around, as well as stuff she can't use yet.
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Old 2013-03-11, 22:53   Link #113
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The Sea King Armor was easier to swallow since it was an element-based armor and she'd already established a precedence for using those types already. That's easily understandable and for one in her position, going against Natsu and Gray for a good portion of her life, she should have access to those types.

I don't really care how she got ALL her armors, I just want to know how she got THIS particular one. It's one hell of an ultra rare drop for an S-class mission, but if that's how she got it - fine, I still know how she got it. If Makarov pulled strings to get her the armor because he believed in her potential, that's fine too. If she went 'Kyaa~' as she fell into a pit where the path at the bottom lead to were the armor was stored, that's fine too, I still know HOW she got it. Call it 'curiosity' :3
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Old 2013-03-13, 09:33   Link #114
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But in general yeah. Lots of people complain about Erza "always" pulling out a new armor to win, when it's seldom been something she's actually done. They also complain about her "always" pulling out "ultimate" armors when she's pulled out three armors that could be described as that, and only twice has said armor gotten her victory, and only one time has the armor remained intact afterwards.
I agree, Erza doesn't "always pull out new armors to win". Nor does she keep using power ups to win (that's more of Natsu's thing). Tbh, that Second Origin release she did was impressive, I never thought that that would happen. But Erza's fights ARE getting dull because recently there is no variety to the way she fights. Yes, she didn't get a new armor for a long time but there are people out there who were disappointed when she brought out Nakami because that move totally falls within what everyone was expecting her to do. What people want is some variety, like maybe she should use her telephatic powers over her weapons more, like when she fought Midnight, or like when she mixed up her armors during Pandemonium. Now that is some variety.
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Old 2013-08-11, 03:04   Link #115
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So basically negate Erza's armor ability and she's screwed. and because Natsu always go DBZ mode most of the time is it about time for Natsu to be the same level of strength as Erza?

for those who are discussing Bleach, the manga is back to its prime and things are very much interesting
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Old 2013-08-11, 15:13   Link #116
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Old 2013-08-12, 09:45   Link #117
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^ Of course. What did you think? She can beat the crap out of people in a bathing suit
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