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Old 2013-03-14, 01:59   Link #4621
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Probably swiveling door/hatch.
If it's in the style of something like the driver's hatches on modern day tanks, or something like a Lamborghini Diablo, then it's not exactly what I would describe as "pivot around the center".

The only kind of hatch/door that I can imagine with that description would be something akin to some salt & pepper dispensers, or some cheese containers. Said design isn't exactly the kind you'd see in large-scale designs though, and certainly not on vehicles.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:03   Link #4622
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
And there were also a good portion of the crews that drowned though, so it's not quite as easy as it sounds.
Almost all drownings happened because the escape happened after the time of no return (as in sinking quite deeply due to sticking to the mission) or being entangled in the cage of supports welded to the tank deck to secure the canvas wraparound.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:04   Link #4623
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Haven't seen every little detail, so I can only go on what the anime has showed me from the flashbacks, so unless they say otherwise, I can only assume that the rescue was warranted, so trying to debate whether a hatch could open or not or any technical aspects would be pointless as it's never said one way or the other in the series or some other source itself. (That I know of.)

Basically, many a time in anime/manga, all we can do, until we're told otherwise, is believe what we're actually shown. I mean, we can think about it, discuss it, and offer as many "outside" details as we want, but it won't change anything so long as the in-universe world maintains the image of it happening/working a certain way until something else comes along and shows, without a doubt, otherwise.

Like this whole discussion on whether Miho's rescue was "needless"; no one can really say it was needless, regardless of real world technical aspects or anything, unless we're shown everything else that was going on, like exactly what was going on inside the troubled tank, what other people were doing outside the match, what everyone was precisely thinking, and so on.

Now I'm not saying it's wrong to think otherwise, but there's no way to establish it as any sort of "fact" unless it's actually shown to be otherwise in the material itself or something.

We also can't forget the plain fact that, regardless of how realistic they may try to be, this is still an anime with an exaggerated concept already, so there more than likely have been/are/will be times where physics, technical aspects, etc may be skewed or even outright ignored solely for the sake of drama, coolness, etc, thus throwing all of that out the window in terms of discussion and really lead nowhere. (Like I see many heated debates on Strike Witches and how things can/can't work and such, many seeming to forget that "real world" was lost from the beginning when things like magic and the Neuroi are thrown in.)

This all goes back to arguing about Shiho's beliefs which, I do agree that they do come off as at least ruthless, but not "bloodthirsty".
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:05   Link #4624
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I think I mentioned earlier that both Hammond (Top Gear) and Jamie (Mythbusters) were able to escape once pressure had equalised, but it took so long to do so that they had to resort to emergency oxygen carried by the safety divers sitting in the back seat.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:12   Link #4625
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Not sure where on the article disagrees with my statement exactly. In any case, the best way to get out of a car is still by breaking a window as mentioned in said article.
You're not supposed to wait until pressure has equalized. Break the window and go.

Quote:
AFAIK the only way to make a car door that can open underwater is to make it a powered door. I'm not sure what you mean by "pivot around its center" though? Can't imagine a door being like that.
Like that: ( | ) .

It pivots around the |, making two openings, left and right of the |. The water weighing on one side will balance the water weighing on the other, so it doesn't matter if it's underwater. One of the cons is that it takes up space inside the vehicle to open.

edit: examples for house doors. Especially the last one, it looks balanced.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:18   Link #4626
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're not supposed to wait until pressure has equalized. Break the window and go.
IIRC, that's if you don't have anything to break the window with, since opening your door is the only option to exit - which is hardly ideal and you'll probably drown if you don't have a safety diver carrying a buddy tank with you.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:22   Link #4627
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Ah, those kinds of doors. It still wouldn't be a good idea for cars given that as already mentioned, you'd need space inside the car to open it, and many cars are designed to be as compact as possible. Having such a door on a car actually reduces your exit space by nearly half. It also adds volume inside the vehicle that could actually bar your escape.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:23   Link #4628
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
This all goes back to arguing about Shiho's beliefs which, I do agree that they do come off as at least ruthless, but not "bloodthirsty".
That is where things should have ended.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:28   Link #4629
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With regard to the difference in priorities between victory and life, I post some comments on this issue from a poster on Spacebattles, which I am quoting here, with regards to earlier disputes on fieldex safety:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildGoose
So I wanted to get the opinions on SB on this. How safe are field excercises?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IXJac
Safety is a major concern on peacetime field exercises, including the adoption of several practices that would not be used in wartime to reduce the risk of harm. Even so, when you have thousands of people moving about with heavy machinery and sometimes live weapons, accidents will happen. It gets worse when those people are all tired due to lack of sleep, and often taking shortcuts due to inevitable time demands. The very first exercise I was on as a private, a soldier was killed while performing maintenance on an APC. A restraining bolt fell out, and a folding seat snapped up and hit his head, breaking his neck. The military took that event seriously enough that the seat was redesigned to prevent similar accidents in future.

It is affected by the environment and intensity of training, but as a rule if you get through a month long Brigade level field exercise without any fatalities, you're doing pretty good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildGoose
Where is the line drawn between realistic training and safety?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IXJac
While deaths do happen in training, the general rule in western militaries is that no training objective is worth a life. Realizing that we work with inherently dangerous equipment in often chaotic situation, there's some realism involved of course - any training completely devoid of risk would not be worth much, but the risk has to be balanced against training value.

Live fire training on pop up ranges with properly prepared and instructed troops is fine. There's inherent danger when you have troops with loaded weapons running around shooting at popup targets, but the preparation and controlled environment mitigates it. The training value of getting troops to learn how to move and fight as a section/squad and platoon is more than worth the fairly minimal risk.

Live fire training between opposed forces using rubber bullets in a free-play fight on the other hand would be considered crazy. Rubber bullets can still cause serious injury, even death, and such an uncontrolled environment would just be asking for serious casualties. The training value would not be considered worthwhile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildGoose
And lastly, thoughts on the above scenario - who's right and who's wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IXJac
It's not even close to a difficult decision. You stop the exercise and ensure the safety of the crew in the tank in the river. Soldiers can and have died when their vehicle fell into water, so it's a complete no-brainer. Anyone who would continue a mere exercise and forgo the chance to ensure their safety has their priorities badly out of whack. In the Canadian Forces, they would be charged for negligence, and probably have criminal proceedings brought against them if any of the fallen tank's crew actually died while they continued to play war.

And whether your assistance is actually physically needed is completely irrelevant. You do not have a crystal ball, you do not know whether your assistance is required. At worst, they do need assistance, and you are removing their chance of survival. At best, by continuing the exercise you are distracting others now dealing with serious real life problems, with your silly exercise bullshit. You stop training (this goes for BOTH sides in a force on force) and stand by to render any assistance to those in need as required.
Well, that's the Canadian perspective. I should note that IXJac has served in the Canadian army, and was an intel NCO. I've bolded the last bit for emphasis. I believe that settles things on whether Miho was right to act as she did.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:31   Link #4630
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I find the emphasis on "western" military to be amusing.

And no, I don't give particular care for the Canadian Armed Forces.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:34   Link #4631
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I find the emphasis on "western" military to be amusing.

And no, I don't give particular care for the Canadian Armed Forces.
I find your insistence on some utterly biazarre, overly strict and rigid interpretation of martial arts to be equally amusing. And while you may not care about the Canadian Army, this is someone who's done this shit for real, so you might want to care more. *shrug*

In that case, there's nothing more to say. You've made up your mind, as childish as your position may be, and refuse to budge. Fair enough.

Just don't expect us to agree with you quietly, towards an opinion that breaches practically every bit of common sense.

I hope to God you're not in some position of command or authority over subordinates.

Also, one last real life anecdote on the subject of the crew rescuing themselves:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IXJac
Assuming they weren't incapacitated in the fall into the river; or that opening the hatch wouldn't require effort from both sides; or that the hatch was damaged in some way that would preclude ANYONE from opening it, and someone from the outside would need to confirm that so that further assistance could be QUICKLY requested before the vehicle flooded. . .

We had an instance in Afghanistan where one of our tanks struck a massive IED. The vehicle was wrecked, and the driver badly wounded. He was able to unlock the hatch from the inside before he passed out. The rest of the crew were then able to wrestle the hatch open from the outside. Because of the damage to the tank the whole hull was warped, with the turret jammed in such a way that had the driver not been able to unlock the hatch they would have had no way of getting him out before he bled to death. There were enemy around during the rescue effort, and had the crew decided "The driver can open the hatch himself, we have to fight Taliban!" he would have died.

You do all you reasonably can to render assistance and worry about whether the assisted could have made it out safely under their own power AFTERWARDS, when everyone is safe.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:34   Link #4632
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Doesn't really matter whether it's from the Canadian Military though: many modern military institutions observe similar codes during field exercises. Including the Japanese.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:35   Link #4633
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Ah, those kinds of doors. It still wouldn't be a good idea for cars given that as already mentioned, you'd need space inside the car to open it, and many cars are designed to be as compact as possible. Having such a door on a car actually reduces your exit space by nearly half. It also adds volume inside the vehicle that could actually bar your escape.
Yeah, just pack a hammer and you're good. Better yet, don't fall in bodies of water.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:37   Link #4634
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In that case, there's nothing more to say. You've made up your mind, as childish as your position may be, and refuse to budge. Fair enough.

I hope to God you're not in some position of command or authority over subordinates.
I actually am in such a position, and loved for it. Sorry if reality is not as soft as some people think it to be, which is indeed true childishness.

Still, thank you for the civil discussion. I wish others would be up to that standard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Doesn't really matter whether it's from the Canadian Military though: many modern military institutions observe similar codes during field exercises. Including the Japanese.
If only people knew what JGSDF and ROKA exercises (especially the ROKA ones) are like.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:43   Link #4635
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I actually am in such a position, and loved for it. Sorry if reality is not as soft as some people think it to be.
So, if you're an actual military officer (infantry, armor?), I just want to be clear on this: You are perfectly alright with risking the lives of your troops in distress during a field exercise, when there is a chance their deaths are preventable?

Also you might want to look up at that other anecdote.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:46   Link #4636
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Not in the military, obviously. My occupation merges ruthlessness with situation awareness, and I've always been one to pick up the burden. That's why the those working for me follow my lead.



Thank you for the civil discussion. I wish others would be up to that standard.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:49   Link #4637
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Oddly, I like this discussion.

It gets past some of the heated debates with some facts and ideology that than just bluster and opinions.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:56   Link #4638
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Black Hawk Down really captures my sentiments perfectly: "It's about the men next to you, and that's it. That's all it is."

Or in another's words: "Bros before Training Objectives."

In this case, Miho's practicing "Bros before Trophies."

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Not in the military, obviously. My occupation merges ruthlessness with situation awareness, and I've always been one to pick up the burden. That's why the those working for me follow my lead.
In that case, might I just point out how childish you appear, dismissing the opinions and experiences of someone who has actually done this shit for real?

With all due respect, when considering the opinions of an ojousama vs a professional soldier, on the subject matter of soldiering, I'll give more credence to the professional soldier.

I'll note that you haven't clarified my question, but if you wish to leave it be, that's your prerogative. I should also note that every time I and arkhangelsk have confronted you on your stance, you've ignored the confrontation.

Quote:
Thank you for the civil discussion. I wish others would be up to that standard.
I don't need to throw a temper tantrum to argue my case, or to be right.

(In the British system, presenting one's case in court is called arguing. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Oddly, I like this discussion.

It gets past some of the heated debates with some facts and ideology that than just bluster and opinions.
I studied British Law as my undergrad degree. The British take on the adversarial system is to argue with facts, precedent and reasoned words first, and only fall back on bluster, opinion and emotion once you're losing. First one to resort to the latter three loses, more or less.

(Albeit there's a difference between opinion and legal opinion, which is an alternate term for a Judge's decision. "It was the opinion of the learned Judge in the case of So-and-so...")

Part of this is also because prior discussions on this subject were emotionally based, while I interpret this issue as a clash of ideologies. Once you step back and get the knee-jerk emotional reactions out of the way, it's possible to see things from a different angle.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-03-14 at 10:15. Reason: Some further thoughts I wanted to put in.
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Old 2013-03-14, 06:31   Link #4639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I find the emphasis on "western" military to be amusing.

And no, I don't give particular care for the Canadian Armed Forces.
So you dismiss every bit of evidence presented to you, no matter what. You have obviously encased your opinion on this in concrete, and there is no point in bothering with reasoned debates. I think I may have to put you on my ignore list just so I can keep coming into this thread.
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Old 2013-03-14, 07:42   Link #4640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
@ arkhangelsk: You're forgetting the most important aspect of all "submerged vehicle" problems. Basically, modern cars/tanks seal the doors/hatches, causing a vacuum which helps water pressure be an effective barrier to escaping.
I never had trouble fighting that "seal" in a car - it is not very significant compared to the water pressure.

Quote:
Also, what gyration and disorientation? Checked Episode 7 again, and it was one of the more smoother slide into a river I've seen. It was certainly a situation where any adequately trained tank crew could have escaped without too much a fuss.
I meant when it was in the river and it rolled close to 90 degrees. The slide part looks long, but in fact was only ~7 seconds. If they IMMEDIATELY decided to escape despite the fact there is a chance (from their viewpoint) they can ride it out and the tank can arrest its descent, the commander would probably have made it out, maybe the second can maneuver in the cramped space and get out before the tank rolls over too much in the river, but that would be it.

Quote:
As for your scenario: If things went to that extreme, obviously the match itself would have been halted.
It already happened except I slowed it up to let you get over your assumption they can easily get out. It wasn't.

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If it wasn't, I would be the one to go and attempt a rescue.
Even if that meant throwing the match? I think this is the first time you said it. Concession accepted.
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