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Old 2013-03-11, 15:09   Link #6041
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Btw, what's wrong with the manga adaptation of the series?
As I recall, they're basically alternate retellings, with some changes.
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Old 2013-03-11, 22:57   Link #6042
Znozzy
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So, whos sign would win, Kira or Shinns?
(this discussion is pretty silly, lol, discussing shoulder signs and if they are useful when we've seen one on a promo image? disregarding the rogue of course)
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Old 2013-03-11, 23:19   Link #6043
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
(this discussion is pretty silly, lol, discussing shoulder signs and if they are useful when we've seen one on a promo image? disregarding the rogue of course)
Well, there’s nothing wrong discussing an aspect of the show when it’s interesting to us, is there? It can be silly or not depends on your view of “what if” situations.

And how can a sign "win" from another?
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Old 2013-03-11, 23:34   Link #6044
Znozzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Well, there’s nothing wrong discussing an aspect of the show when it’s interesting to us, is there? It can be silly or not depends on your view of “what if” situations.
True, true rather getting upset and emotional about it would be, though.

Honestly i'd bet it's like real life with certain pilots painting logos on their aircrafts, i hardly doubt they would be used for identification on the battlefield though, if anything they are a fun side thing for pilots to personalize/brag about their position/squadron in the hangers.

Quote:
And how can a sign "win" from another?
Sarcasm, sarcasm!

i mean, If Shinn and Kira's signs would fight, who would win? /giggle
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Old 2013-03-11, 23:46   Link #6045
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
I hardly doubt they would be used for identification on the battlefield though, if anything they are a fun side thing for pilots to personalize/brag about their position/squadron in the hangers.
For personal insignias, yes of course (Waldfeld did it with his Tiger marking). But for the standard squadron markings (like Shiho’s mandatory “Team Jule” marking on her Zaku Warrior), I doubt it’s there just for fun.

Btw, when I said “Shiho’s Team Jule”, it feels like she's one of those Twilight fans XD.
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Old 2013-03-12, 00:25   Link #6046
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
For personal insignias, yes of course (Waldfeld did it with his Tiger marking). But for the standard squadron markings (like Shiho’s mandatory “Team Jule” marking on her Zaku Warrior), I doubt it’s there just for fun.
i dunno, i wish they actually had more of those details in the anime, it adds atleast, well, some character to the grunts aside from the random custom color schemes.

Btw, when I said “Shiho’s Team Jule”, it feels like she's one of those Twilight fans XD.[/QUOTE]

Oh god, imagine the rivalry.

" Team Jule's the best! "
" No, Team Westenfluss is the best! "
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Old 2013-03-13, 07:11   Link #6047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
As I recall, they're basically alternate retellings, with some changes.
Basically, this is what Tokita's manga adaptations of G and Wing are, and alternate retellings = non-canon.

The Astray mangas are Secondary canon.
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Old 2013-03-13, 14:46   Link #6048
Gundamx
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...Don't you just love it how we are here talking about MS shoulder signs and other forums talk about how Strike and Freedom been destroyed behind destiny?
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Than again it's better than people talking about who is stronger...
Though it won't be fun if Kira lost in Strike & Freedom to Shin and not have his final fight in SF with him...
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Old 2013-03-13, 14:55   Link #6049
monster
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The one on Destiny's right looks to have a mono-eye. The background mobile suits aren't that clear to me.
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Old 2013-03-13, 15:00   Link #6050
Rising Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
...Don't you just love it how we are here talking about MS shoulder signs and other forums talk about how Strike and Freedom been destroyed behind destiny?
So what? Back when Destiny aired, towards the end we got a promotional picture of a wrecked Destiny going in for the kill on an equally wrecked Strike Freedom. And we all know how that turned out in the show.

So this is just the same bullshit. No point in discussing a fight outcome that sure as hell isn't going to happen.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The one on Destiny's right looks to have a mono-eye. The background mobile suits aren't that clear to me.
No, those are definitely the Strike and the Freedom. You can recognize the Strike's arms, and the Freedom's opened cockpit (of course, Kira's mobile suit can't imply that he may have been killed!).
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Old 2013-03-13, 15:11   Link #6051
monster
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Okay, on closer look, the red seems to be part of the Aile stiker pack. But at first glance, it looks like a BuCUE to me. So what is that yellow dot?
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Old 2013-03-13, 15:23   Link #6052
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Okay, on closer look, the red seems to be part of the Aile stiker pack. But at first glance, it looks like a BuCUE to me. So what is that yellow dot?
The yellow dot on the Strike's head is part of the flames around the picture. A wayward spark.
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Old 2013-03-13, 15:25   Link #6053
monster
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I see, well that's a finely placed spark.
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Old 2013-03-13, 16:59   Link #6054
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Spoiler for monster:


Spoiler for Znozzy:
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Old 2013-03-13, 17:04   Link #6055
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Gundam official is dead, but the archive can still be accessed.

About Neutron Jammer Canceller (Gundam Official archive Feb 14 2012)
http://web.archive.org/web/201202141...jammercanceler
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:00   Link #6056
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
...Don't you just love it how we are here talking about MS shoulder signs and other forums talk about how Strike and Freedom been destroyed behind destiny?
If you think badly of people discussing FAITH signs and other personal markings, then discussing wrecked Gundams in the background of a promotional poster is just as bad (if not worse). Why? Read Rising Dragon’s reply to you above.

I myself never view any discussion topic as stupid or something like that as long as it’s reasonable.
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Old 2013-03-14, 00:06   Link #6057
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post

Yeah no kidding. The point is that it's out of character, not that it didn't happen. i don't know how many times I'm going to have to keep saying that...
You are saying it's out of character, i'm saying its not out of character since Orb had a change in leadership, official or not, Cagalli was not calling the shots when she wasnt there, the seirans was

Quote:
Because they couldn't be sure that Cagalli was actually there. Remember what happened when Orb was being attacked by ZAFT and Yuna, in his desperation, acknowledged that she was Cagalli?
Of course, Yuna out of pure desperation (his country being attacked aswell) said it was the real Cagalli, not to mention he made a pure ass out of himself aswell, if you want a plot hole, the Akatsuki is a pretty big one aswell. The Seirans, or rather Yuna lost control of the situation aswell.

Quote:
The fact that Cagalli was still the Chief representative shows quite clearly that the Seirans didn't officially have more power over her.
Yet they took charge earlier in the show when she was still in Orb during the Minerva vs Ea battle and the entire Wedding part, they had some kind of advantage over her, that is one of the big plotholes that doesnt add up.

Quote:
That's not another subject. If there's no evidence to suggest they had their own motto and that it was just as powerful as Uzumi's then you can't prove that's the reason why the treaty happened. I have already made the point that just because the treaty happened, doesn't mean it's for the reasons you said it has. It could easily just be a plot hole, like I keep saying it is.
The treaty obviously happened against Cagalli's will, the Seirans clearly held the upper hand when it came to political power in the parliament/high council around those episodes.

Quote:
Then you can't say the 180 degree turn makes any sense. When I said Orb is acting out of character, I meant the civilians too. There was no dissent when there clearly should've been.
We can't draw conclusions regarding the civilians feelings when Destiny didn't show us any Orb civilians interacting with eachother regarding the matter, let's agree to disagree when it comes to them. Since we've been shown nothing it's impossible to say if they acted out of character or not, since they have none.

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I'm going to save you the embarrassment and let you off on that rather childish display...
like you put up in your earlier post? Get off the high horse, bring some facts instead of opinions.
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So you can't deny I was making this point before then?
Already replied to that in my previous post, re-read it, your point held no weight nor substance since you had nothing to back it up with.

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Nope, lets not. If we have enough material on civilians under Uzumi's rule and since there's no material on civilians under Seiran's rule, I can only conclude that's because there's been no change. Hence, it's out of character.
one can draw parallels to schrödinger's cat when it comes to the civilians, we don't know how the Seiran rule affected them at all, if it changed or not. as i said, i'm going to leave the civilians out of my next posts since we have no material to discuss their wellbeing or what happened to them during the EA alliance.
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You've specifically made the point that the show hasn't told us anything...
about the civilians.

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I swear to God I hope you're not suggesting I'm saying the treaty didn't happen again. Because you now I'm not...

..right?
when did i ever say that you denied the treaty existing? don't make things up.

Quote:
You're contradicting yourself. Did Athrun mention ZAFT or not?

Yes he did. Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen, hence why he never said it. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.
Sorry, Zaft is their military, he meant a diplomatic matter for their nation (Plant). I had a name mixup there, my apologies.

Quote:
The fact that Cagalli left, which is the actual reason why they assumed the Seirans were in charge? What about that change?
Cagalli didn't really leave on her own free will, seeing how her brother showed up in a mobile suit, kidnapped her and took her to the Arch Angel just to stop the wedding.

Well, one can assume this:
Officially, Cagalli was the chief representative, but the Seiran's had more power political power inside the parliament/high council, enough to force Cagalli into a arranged marriage of some sort, seeing how they already had enough power to make calls with the military around the time the Minerva left.

Quote:
Just making those accusations won't make it true, which is pretty much what you were doing until you finally got your act together now.
Yet you still havent provided a single source to support your own claims, its time to get your own act together.

Quote:
You may not actually remember, but the whole reason this debate in the first place started was because you were making claims about the Seirans I didn't believe was true because there was no evidence for it...
i've provided you sources from the show, you've provided your opinion, while you are entitled to your own opinion, you can't act like it's fact " just because " you feel it is.

Quote:
No, that comment ought to make you realise that just saying my source is unreliable is not even remotely helpful when you have no better alternative to offer. Something that you, unfortunately, still haven't learnt.
Excuse me? as i've said in my previous posts, provide me with the episode number and/or time and i'll look it up to make sure your claim is correct, if it is, i stand corrected. i won't flat out deny things the show state unlike you. The show is always the best alternative. I've provided sources, you haven't.

Once again, get off your high horse, you havent provided a single source for any of your claims, yet you act like you are right about everything, it's time to stop being all talk and actually provide some sources from your own claims.

Quote:
You never quoted the show regarding the NJC matter. If you did, then I apologise, but I don't recall you ever quoting the show regarding the supposed ban on NJCs.
Seeing how you havent provided any source for your claims, and the only source you've provided in your arguments is the wikia it's pretty safe to assume you are the one making wild fan speculations.

Last edited by Znozzy; 2013-03-14 at 12:27.
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:02   Link #6058
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That's very helpful to me considering GundamOfficial's site is dead, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're pulling that out of your arse. If you have any objections to that, then feel free to give me an actual source next time...
http://web.archive.org/web/201205300...l#juniustreaty
Quote:
Does the Junius Treaty prohibit obtaining the NJC altogether?
The question is, how would Orb obtain an NJC?
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No, the point you made was that the EA didn't care about the consequences. Stop playing semantics.

MAD not being a factor because they've already gone past that point, does not prove that the EA doesn't care about MAD at all. Thus MAD can still be a factor against Orb.
MAD was never a factor.
Quote:
Yzak's mother very clearly talked about EA planning on using more nuclear weapons to encourage the nation to destroy EA before they could. ZAFT obviously knew the EA would try and launch more strikes, but they very clearly did not see that particular strike coming so soon. Please don't quote Yzak's mother's speech out of context. Just because she mentions nuclear strikes coming in the future, does not mean she knew that strike would happen so soon. Everything points to them being surprised by it.
The point of promising not to let anymore nuclear weapon be used against them is to be ready to defend the PLANTs at any time, not just in some future attack.
Quote:
But not in this case, as I have already explained. Given what other plans they had it seems very clear that experimenting with nuclear weapons again is the most reasonable thing to do. Assuming they don't care about MAD of course...



Episode 9 after the stampeder has been used:

"The Stampeder's quantum fresnels have melted and activated the breaker. The system has now stopped functioning"

"I'm glad the Stampeder just made it in time"

"But it'll only work once. They'll know better the next time"
Phase 11 showed that it was a shock to them at seeing their entire nuclear force eliminated in an instant. So much so that, when pressured by the other members of LOGOS, Djibril decided to come up with another way of destroying the PLANTs. Obviously they didn't think nuclear weapons are good enough to do the job any longer.
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And why would they want to do that, pray tell? It seems very obvious they made it a last resort in case the EA were capable of nuclear strikes or something similar again.
It seems very obvious that Zala was intent on destroying the EA.
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And Orb were already in battle hence why they needed to regroup. That's not going to be the case in this situation. The EA have no reason to believe they can get to Orb's mass driver before Orb can. It's just not logically possible.

And if you're making a point about experience, then their experience tells them they won't get the Mass Driver. The differentiation shouldn't matter right?
Still, if they ever need a mass driver, Orb's mass driver will always be an option.
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The Destroys clearly didn't prove to be enough and even then they could have used nuclear weapons. There is absoutely nothing in the show to suggest they used the Destroys out of efficiency over nuclear weapons and if you're using the point that the EA want to rebuild and repopulate then you also have to accept that the EA cares about the consequences of MAD.
No, it just means that the EA cares about the consequences of nuclear explosions on Earth.
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You've also once again inadvertently proven that EA wouldn't want to use nuclear weapons on Orb.
But it won't be out of fear of MAD.
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And where would they have that perspective from?
Experience.
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That one that they got is only useful if they get the other two and they didn't so that one that they got is completely useless to them. And the fate remains that Orb was still able to hide whatever it wants from the EA. It didn't need Freedom and Justice to do that.
Irrelevant. The conversation between Azrael and Sutherland still showed that they still believe they had a chance. So, like I said, if they ever need something Orb again, attacking Orb would still be an option.
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So you're moving the goal posts then?

Just to be clear you said my point that Orb would not reverse it's ideals so easily would be valid if Orb didn't think they could deter EA from an imminent threat.

To me the idea that they would completely change their ideals fro something that isn't even an imminent threat is not something I care to even argue about.
It may not be imminent, but the fact that it happened mere 2 years after the first conflict over similar reasons and with the same parties could not escape Orb. Even if it's not imminent, it's highly likely to happen again as history seems to be repeating itself.
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1. And as I have pointed out just because Orb can't gaurentee it (you can't guarantee anything), doesn't mean they're going to automatically believe it will happen. The only reason they would is if they have a perspective that's preventing them and that's ciruclar logic because you said it's their reasons against detterence that's what lead them to their perspective, not the other way around.

2. And once again, experience isn't going to be the only thing for them to go on unless they have that perspective which you can't assume they would.

So let me ask again: which one is it?
It's both.

The reason you think it's circular logic is probably because you're mixing two different experiences that I'm talking about.

The first experience is that Orb saw how the EA found itself needing a mass driver in the course of the war, which is something that Orb happened to have. This would lead to the perspective that Orb is a valuable nation.

The second experience is that Orb also saw how the EA attacked Orb even though Orb was considered a powerful nation in SEED. This would lead to another perspective that Orb could not deter an attack from the EA when they want something from Orb.

Thus, given the two perspectives, the Seirans proposed joining the EA as a preemptive move so that the EA won't attack Orb.

Now, it's true that Orb also has the experience that it was freed again after the war ended. But it was at a cost, and obviously the people who sided with the Seirans didn't think the cost was worth risking another attack.
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No, since as i pointed out, Orb risked the rest of ZAFT getting involved and you didn't deny that.
No, because as I said, ZAFT was there for the Archangel, not for Orb.

There's a chance that the rest of ZAFT won't get involved over 1 ship. But when the EA fleet itself came for Orb itself, that's a different story altogether. And it showed: While Athrun's 1 ship did not attack, the EA fleet did attack.

So clearly deterring a ZAFT ship who was not there for Orb doesn't mean that Orb could deter an EA fleet. In fact, Yuna proved in Destiny that Orb can't deter an attack even from ZAFT when ZAFT actually had a reason to go after Orb.
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Old 2013-03-14, 12:31   Link #6059
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
So clearly deterring a ZAFT ship who was not there for Orb doesn't mean that Orb could deter an EA fleet. In fact, Yuna proved in Destiny that Orb can't deter an attack even from ZAFT when ZAFT actually had a reason to go after Orb.
In Orb's defense, Yuna didn't even scramble the defense force after Zaft made their demands, hell, he didn't do anything until Zaft forces were running wild inside Orb territory.
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Old 2013-03-14, 18:35   Link #6060
Skye629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Okay, on closer look, the red seems to be part of the Aile stiker pack. But at first glance, it looks like a BuCUE to me. So what is that yellow dot?
Im quite certain that the yellow is the forehead camera, I swear it was yellow when active

You can also see the distinct Strike shoulders


As a random more pleasant off topic question to everyone:

What are the top 10 scenes in the DESTINY remaster are you looking forward to? (Assuming the scene gets the remastered treatment)

For me:
1. Sword Impulse debut in Episode 1
2. Fall of Junius Seven and the beautiful music that accompanied that beautiful scene of destruction
3. Kira crashing his sister's wedding in a WMD (YOLO)
4. Heine being a badass in a Gouf
5. Destroy battle in Berlin
6. Freedom getting destroyed (haters gonna hate, cant wait for that scene to air again and watch the fighting among the fans that ensues, gonna be quite the show XD)
7. Strike Freedom debut (TM Revolution: Vestige FTW!)
8. The debut of the Akatsuki (I love that scene, especially the song that started with the suits activation)
9. Gouf crashing on Yuna (trullz, any bets it gets remastered? Im going to laugh so hard if it did)
10. Final Battle (probably gonna be all remastered clip repeats from the Orb battle, oh the irony XD, I mainly want to see if the change stuff, like DAMAGE the SF for gods sake)
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