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Old 2013-03-14, 19:09   Link #3321
Qilin
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Liking Shizuno aside, I don't think anyone could look at that ending and call it "good" from a technical perspective, so I don't see the point of the backlash against people voicing such sentiments. It's all a matter of believability and consistency.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:15   Link #3322
Von Himmel
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Liking Shizuno aside, I don't think anyone could look at that ending and call it "good" from a technical perspective
People have different taste. It's like saying that no one would like scat play even when there are some people who like it. Some say that it's good/bad and develop various arguments and nitpicking as to why they liked it or hate it. More than anything, I think that it goes down to whether people accept it or not.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:30   Link #3323
atua
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Except there's nothing subjective about the fact that Achiga in general, and Shizuno, in particular DID NOT GET ENOUGH PAGE TIME devoted to them. Just compare the number of scenes of Saki and her mahjong games at Kiyosumi, with Fujita-pro, at training camp, at the regionals vs how many we get of Shizuno. It's no accident that many on the forum were (jokingly) calling this side story Senriyama-hen...
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:50   Link #3324
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Originally Posted by atua View Post
Except there's nothing subjective about the fact that Achiga in general, and Shizuno, in particular DID NOT GET ENOUGH PAGE TIME devoted to them. Just compare the number of scenes of Saki and her mahjong games at Kiyosumi, with Fujita-pro, at training camp, at the regionals vs how many we get of Shizuno. It's no accident that many on the forum were (jokingly) calling this side story Senriyama-hen...
And that is called different opinion. Not the fact.

Basicly, you don't think that Achiga and Shizuno get enough page time BUT I am find with the amout of time they got.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:59   Link #3325
atua
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My point is compare the percentage of scenes that feature Saki in the main Saki story, vs percentage of scenes with Shizuno in Achiga. It's objectively true that Shizuno got a lot less scenes devoted to her development. Whether you find that level of development adequate or not is subjective, but that one is a lot less than the other is not.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:17   Link #3326
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But then it's just as subjective that Senriyama still got even less overall development and page-time devoted to them than Achiga.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:25   Link #3327
Von Himmel
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I don't think it's even relevant to bring the fact that Shizu got less screen time compared to a certain demon in main manga. In then end, people still has different opinions about it. Even if the fact is that she has less actions, there are still people out there that thinks it's acceptable.

Now if people starts thinking that she has the same amount of screen time or even more than Saki, then that fact is important to the debate. I don't think no one here disagree with the fact that she has less screen time; they just disagree whether that it's enough for her development or not.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:27   Link #3328
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
People have different taste. It's like saying that no one would like scat play even when there are some people who like it. Some say that it's good/bad and develop various arguments and nitpicking as to why they liked it or hate it. More than anything, I think that it goes down to whether people accept it or not.
Literally anything in this world of ours can be explained away as subjective, but that doesn't mean it's a good argument. Even acceptance of particular developments in fiction is a result of consistent patterns in writing that have appeared throughout the ages. With that in mind, I'm quite certain that powers that come from absolutely nowhere before the two recent chapters wouldn't be called "good" in many cases, but then Achiga was never particularly well-written to begin with, so I'm not too taken aback.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:29   Link #3329
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
But then it's just as subjective that Senriyama still got even less overall development and page-time devoted to them than Achiga.
What's Senriyama got to do with anything? I don't think anyone is seriously claiming they're the protagonists; that was all just joking around. However, they did get a lot of attention that in hindsight should've gone to Achiga. For example, even though Ryuumonbuchi got significant development in Saki, they never overshadowed Kiyosumi the same way that Senriyama did Achiga. Also, spending that much time on Toki's PoV ended up being a bit of a two-edged sword, IMO.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:31   Link #3330
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...wouldn't all of the supernatural mahjong powers from both main and sidestory come from 'absolutely nowhere', or am I misunderstanding your point?

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Originally Posted by atua View Post
What's Senriyama got to do with anything? I don't think anyone is seriously claiming they're the protagonists; that was all just joking around. However, they did get a lot of attention that in hindsight should've gone to Achiga. For example, even though Ryuumonbuchi got significant development in Saki, they never overshadowed Kiyosumi the same way that Senriyama did Achiga. Also, spending that much time on Toki's PoV ended up being a bit of a two-edged sword, IMO.
I actually agree with this, because even reading it, it was never 'Senriyama' that got the screentime to me so much as 'Toki'. Which really was a two-edged sword, but I think it was because Ritz wrote herself into a bit of a corner in the very first player's match. Basically, she had to find a way to not have Teru just completely reduce somebody to below 0 points and end the manga right there and then, which is actually pretty possible considering her power and all the dealer repeats. The problem was that none of the other 3 even came close to Teru's level, and the closest one to Teru's level, Toki was still quite far below her. Which is why she was probably 'chosen' to get a bunch of development that much to lead to her 'forbidden power up' which lets her barely manage with the help of the other 2 schools to end Teru's dealership. And while it may have been the best way to keep the manga going (since Kuro or Subaru-senpai getting a sudden powerup enough to overcome Teru would probably be several times harder to swallow than even the current final), it really and completely stole the spotlight and shone it square on Toki.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:37   Link #3331
Qilin
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
...wouldn't all of the supernatural mahjong powers from both main and sidestory come from 'absolutely nowhere', or am I misunderstanding your point?
Those would be attributes assigned to those particular characters, attributes that were promptly displayed or hinted at shortly after their introduction.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:40   Link #3332
Von Himmel
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But you said that 'I don't think anyone could call----', which means you hold a certain thinking that everyone should have the same opinion as you.

Yes I agree that there are certain things here that when you like it, it just means that you have a shit taste regardless of what they think about it.. but people are entitled to have different opinions in any matters. By which I mean that there's certainly a group of people that thinks the ending is good in their opinion, just like cedec0 here.. I think?

I'm just pointing that out because I disagree with your view.

Certainly most people would find the ending in a bad taste, but I know some people that find it acceptable. Are you denying their existence?

tl;dr I'm just nitpicking your post
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:47   Link #3333
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...but powers have to come from somewhere, right? It's not like the moment Saki was born she knew that she had auto-rinshan Kaihou or the very first mahjong game Kuro played all the dora suddenly gathered in her hand, or when Toki first picked up a mahjong tile she saw into the future or did whatever her three army ability was? I mean, logically speaking, these abilities would have to appear at some point after they already started playing?

*Thinking about it, I think FutaQ even mentions that often third years will just suddenly randomly develop abilities in the tournament, or something along those lines.
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Old 2013-03-14, 20:52   Link #3334
momonae
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
The anger over Chapter 20 of Achiga-hen is not the result of bad storytelling by Ritz. The arguments being made as to why this last chapter was poorly written do not stand up to logic. Rather, the anger is, more simply, the irrational/emotional responce to an "unacceptable" character, Shizuno.
I haven't read all of your post but here is my argument why ch. 20 looked as if it didn't quite cut it. By the way, I'm not angry at all and don't think it's "poorly written" especially.

It seemed to me that originally Achiga was planned to lose in the semifinal. Reasons:
1. Two major flags set that had to be cleared for the story were cleared soon after the first match of the semifinal.
a) Akado Harue recovered from her trauma sustained during her Inter High when Kokaji said she remembered very well when she played into Harue's hand in the match she got the trauma.
b) Shizuno and co. reunited with Nodoka.
2. Achiga team wasn't described so competent initially, at least not as competent as the teams which are monstrous and then Shizuno suddenly got her supernatual power with little indication (I think Koromo's comment given to Saki was first). On the other and Senriyama team had been fleshed out very well for a one-off team and was really impressive (might be more impressive than Achiga).
3. That two teams, which have club members only enough to entry the tournments and are virtually made just before the tournaments, and conveniently they are old friends, go to the final at the same time is rather silly for the story or diminishes the value of the nationals Saki's team participates in.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:00   Link #3335
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
But you said that 'I don't think anyone could call----', which means you hold a certain thinking that everyone should have the same opinion as you.

Yes I agree that there are certain things here that when you like it, it just means that you have a shit taste regardless of what they think about it.. but people are entitled to have different opinions in any matters. By which I mean that there's certainly a group of people that thinks the ending is good in their opinion, just like cedec0 here.. I think?

I'm just pointing that out because I disagree with your view.

Certainly most people would find the ending in a bad taste, but I know some people that find it acceptable. Are you denying their existence?

tl;dr I'm just nitpicking your post
To be fair, maybe I worded it too strongly, but you're misrepresenting my position here. While I'm convinced that the writing is indeed faulty, that doesn't mean I disliked the whole thing. Even many readers have to admit the writing really does suffer in this series mostly due to pacing issues and, arguably, insufficient characterization for some. I'm well aware that these are flaws are due to issues of length and time, but that's just how it is.

Even despite all that, I enjoy this series for its delightful cast of characters, each with their own dilemmas and motivations for playing mahjong. The crazy interactions between lesbian mahjong powers are another definite plus. And for me, it's these factors that still made the ending very much enjoyable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
...but powers have to come from somewhere, right? It's not like the moment Saki was born she knew that she had auto-rinshan Kaihou or the very first mahjong game Kuro played all the dora suddenly gathered in her hand, or when Toki first picked up a mahjong tile she saw into the future or did whatever her three army ability was? I mean, logically speaking, these abilities would have to appear at some point after they already started playing?

*Thinking about it, I think FutaQ even mentions that often third years will just suddenly randomly develop abilities in the tournament, or something along those lines.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to how their characters were introduced into the story. Any changes beyond that point would have to be gradual or justified by plot to be seen as believable.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:00   Link #3336
Marina2
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Originally Posted by momonae View Post
It seemed to me that originally Achiga was planned to lose in the semifinal. Reasons:
1. Two major flags set that had to be cleared for the story were cleared soon after the first match of the semifinal.
a) Akado Harue recovered from her trauma sustained during her Inter High when Kokaji said she remembered very well when she played into Harue's hand in the match she got the trauma.
b) Shizuno and co. reunited with Nodoka.
Hmm........B) is a bit wrong. The true flag (and the reason why they entered the tournament from the begin with) is they want to play with Nodoka in national. That alone is the hint that Ritz planed to make Achiga reach final round from the begining.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:00   Link #3337
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by momonae View Post
I haven't read all of your post but here is my argument why ch. 20 looked as if it didn't quite cut it. By the way, I'm not angry at all and don't think it's "poorly written" especially.

It seemed to me that originally Achiga was planned to lose in the semifinal. Reasons:
1. Two major flags set that had to be cleared for the story were cleared soon after the first match of the semifinal.
a) Akado Harue recovered from her trauma sustained during her Inter High when Kokaji said she remembered very well when she played into Harue's hand in the match she got the trauma.
b) Shizuno and co. reunited with Nodoka.
2. Achiga team wasn't described so competent initially, at least not as competent as the teams which are monstrous and then Shizuno suddenly got her supernatual power with little indication (I think Koromo's comment given to Saki was first). On the other and Senriyama team had been fleshed out very well for a one-off team and was really impressive (might be more impressive than Achiga).
3. That two teams, which have club members only enough to entry the tournments and are virtually made just before the tournaments, and conveniently they are old friends, go to the final at the same time is rather silly for the story or diminishes the value of the nationals Saki's team participates in.
I do want to touch one two points on your point 2. For the first part, ironically it was kind of the opposite, I think. They were described as quite competent/good/whatever by quite a few characters, it's just that Ritz really show their competency that well (or rather it almost feels like at times she went out of her way to make them appear incompetent but that's a whole another topic). Also, it wasn't that Senriyama was fleshed out, it was Toki that was fleshed out. I don't really think the rest of Senriyama even got a tenth of the development that Toki did.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
To be fair, maybe I worded it too strongly, but you're misrepresenting my position here. While I'm convinced that the writing is indeed faulty, that doesn't mean I disliked the whole thing. Even many readers have to admit the writing really does suffer in this series mostly due to pacing issues and, arguably, insufficient characterization for some. I'm well aware that these are flaws are due to issues of length and time, but that's just how it is.

Even despite all that, I enjoy this series for its delightful cast of characters, each with their own dilemmas and motivations for playing mahjong. The crazy interactions between lesbian mahjong powers are another definite plus. And for me, it's these factors that still made the ending very much enjoyable.
Well, I actually mostly agree with this. There were some issues and some things could have been done better, but for me personally at least, it was quite an enjoyable ride. I just feel like some people are really over-exaggerating the issues though.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:09   Link #3338
Von Himmel
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To be fair, maybe I worded it too strongly, but you're misrepresenting my position here. While I'm convinced that the writing is indeed faulty, that doesn't mean I disliked the whole thing. Even many readers have to admit the writing really does suffer in this series mostly due to pacing issues and, arguably, insufficient characterization for some. I'm well aware that these are flaws are due to issues of length and time, but that's just how it is.

Even despite all that, I enjoy this series for its delightful cast of characters, each with their own dilemmas and motivations for playing mahjong. The crazy interactions between lesbian mahjong powers are another definite plus. And for me, it's these factors that still made the ending very much enjoyable.
Yeah I know, that's why I was just nitpicking your words and I must realized that I came up wrong in many points on my previous posts Sorry about that

..seriously though, it's hard to keep cool and do a proper debate when things gone like this... especially in a certain imageboard
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:28   Link #3339
cedec0
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Liking Shizuno aside, I don't think anyone could look at that ending and call it "good" from a technical perspective, so I don't see the point of the backlash against people voicing such sentiments. It's all a matter of believability and consistency.
Actually, liking/not liking Shizuno is directly relevant to the "believability and consistency" of the ending.


Quote:
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Rule of Cool

The limit of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

Stated another way, all but the most pedantic of viewers will forgive liberties with reality as long as the result is wicked sweet or awesome. This applies to the audience in general; there will naturally be a different threshold for each individual.

The Rule Of Cool is another principle that seeks to dispel arguments among fans over implausibility in fiction. It has been cited by animation director Steve Loter (of Kim Possible, Clerks: The Animated Series, Tarzan, and American Dragon Jake Long) in response to questions from fans attempting to justify temporary breaches in logical consistency. It is a complement to Bellisario's Maxim and the MST3K Mantra.
An example of the rule of cool (at least it was for me) was Saki removing her socks for the first time. "removing your socks" is probably the silliest and most unrealistic way of "powering up" that I have ever seen (even compared to tacos and Etopen), but it was ok because it was cool (Saki defeating Koromo was awesome).

However, if Saki had been hated the way Shizu is hated, there most likely would have been endless comments here calling her victory an asspull (because the "removing your socks" wasn't foreshadowed, etd...)

Because Shizu is hated, Achiga-hen's "believability and consistency" is being held up to an abnormally high standard.

--------

The point I am trying to make is that, in any manga where the main character is hated, fans will find endless flaws in the story.

--------

Last edited by cedec0; 2013-03-14 at 21:49.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:39   Link #3340
Qilin
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
Actually, liking/not liking Shizuno is directly relevant to the "believability and consistency" of the ending.
It's related in the sense that any like or dislike for a character can possibly exaggerate any discovered flaws related to the consistency of writing, but they are different things altogether. Flawed writing is flawed writing (within specific criteria) whether I happen to like a character or not.

Saki, on the other hand, has been an established monster since the first episode. That's how she was introduced, and that the point from which she developed.
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