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Old 2013-03-14, 22:17   Link #3341
cedec0
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Quote:
Saki, on the other hand, has been an established monster since the first episode. That's how she was introduced, and that the point from which she developed.
For me, Shizuno was introduced as monster from the very first chapter too, based on her character type. My very first impression of her was that she was a female version of the Goku/Luffy/Naruto "monkey-type" character. Just take a look a Shizuno stats:

Characteristics of a monkey
Agility of a monkey
Over-confident
Over-optimistic
Over-energetic
An idiot in everyday life
Childish at times
Physically strong
Runs around half-naked
Fearless with an unbreakable will

It is too similar to be an accident (she even gets ready to fight by "switching gears"!). The only character trait missing from the list above is "monstrously strong" (at mahjong), and then you have a perfect female clone of Goku/Luffy/Naruto "monkey-type" character, which is what I have been waiting for/expecting since the very first chapter.


The fact that some people were SURPRISED that Shizuno turned out to be monster is still hard for me to understand. The only explanation I can come up with is that couldn't or wouldn't make the connection between Shizuno and the Goku/Luffy/Naruto character type on which she was based.

At least for me, all other issues aside, Shizuno's character type itself foreshadowed the monster she was later revealed to be. (How could a protagonist, whose's character is a carbon copy Goku/Luffy/Naruto, turn out to be weak?)

Last edited by cedec0; 2013-03-14 at 23:32.
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:19   Link #3342
orangejuicetang
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So on a somewhat unrelated but more amusing note,

Awai: 'Next time I'll defeat her 100 times over!'

Me: THE NUMBER 100 AGAIN!?
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:39   Link #3343
atua
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
The fact that some people were SURPRISED that Shizuno turned out to be monster is still hard for me to understand. The only explanation I can come up with is that couldn't or wouldn't make the connection between Shizuno and the Goku/Luffy/Naruto character type on which she was based. This strikes me as sexism on the subconcious level...
Sexism is a ridiculous conclusion to draw. For me, the problem was less about Chapter 20 or Shizuno per se, but the pacing and characterisation in Achiga as a whole. If Shizuno got the time spent on her and her games the way that shounen manga protagonists do on their fights in their respective titles, people would not have been surprised. It's the very fact that she never got the time she should have that's the problem. And since you like your shounen manga examples; seeing Shizuno beat Awai was like suddenly seeing Ichigo beat up Aizen without seeing any (or only one or two) of his fights in between.
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:43   Link #3344
Qilin
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@cedec0

This kind of meta justification won't fly if you're judging the series in isolation, which most people tend to do. If the only foreshadowing you can offer isn't something you'd find within the series itself, then it doesn't really count. And even if it did, it's still a horrible writing practice. Besides, as some have already stated, this manga caters to a different audiences compared to works like Naruto and One Piece, so it's unreasonable to expect the same things from both types of works. In any case, attributing this to sexism seems like a stretch.
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Old 2013-03-15, 02:02   Link #3345
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by cedec0 View Post
For me, Shizuno was introduced as monster from the very first chapter too, based on her character type. My very first impression of her was that she was a female version of the Goku/Luffy/Naruto "monkey-type" character. Just take a look a Shizuno stats:
you do know that those 3 shounen protagonist was establish kick as from the beginning right? or at least they can fight or shown how they fight thus they are developed as MC of the show which is different from achiga which even if Shizu should be the MC but the line of MC was blur in this manga because she wasn't even much focus until the last fight or last chapter.

Naruto is more like a fox while Goku and Luffy are indeed butt monkeys.
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Old 2013-03-15, 02:10   Link #3346
morli
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post

1. While Shizu may not good at gaining score, sheís very good at defensive play (Evidence: Look at score in quarter final and semi final, she almost never dealt into someone hand and she didnít win often)

2. She has power to cancel other abilities, but this power is unreliable or unusable when play with normal people.

Now with that in mind, letís go by point to point.

Why people in story never say Shizu is Achiga #1

It is not hard to notice that people usually say who is better by how much point that player gained. Thatís why Shizu , who is good at defend, is not considered the best player in Achiga. She is under the shadow of teammates. Sheís also only shine when the table is full of monster.
Yeah, Shizu ability is revolved around defensive playstyle, not aggressive at all. We must expect she won't get many point in the final, but we must expect she won't lose many point there.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Finally, Awai, despite being a monster, did show stupid terrible play during the semifinals. There are two points which showed Awai as a terrible mahjong player: the fact that she kept doing double riichi against Himeko's confirmed victories, and the fact that she kept doing double riichi on no-yaku hands in the first place. In fact, if Awai knows the location of when she will win her hands (at the corners), then she can just riichi just before the corner for an ippatsu to get the same han value (double riichi = 2 han, riichi + ippatsu = 2 han). However, doing the ippatsu route offers a huge number of other advantages, including better defence, and improving her hand for extra yaku (i.e. tanyao, sanshoku, chin'itsu, yakuhai, or any number of other ones). The fact that Awai never considered not doing double riichi and building a better hand until the final round show how she is a crap mahjong player, far from the level of Saki or Teru or Koromo.
Awai use riichi ippatsu at the end of the captain match right? Maybe in the final we will see Awai using this play often with her 5-6 iishanten and double riichi negated. No way she will played by Shizu twice without some retaliation.
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Old 2013-03-15, 02:36   Link #3347
tsunade666
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Shizu is a defensive player and more like a monster slayer but she is not well groom enough by the story to justify it even though its been hinted, obviously that she will be an enemy for Saki but hint of her ability and strength wasn't shown until the near end.

I start re-watching Saki BD season 1 and I notice that since the beginning that buchou already hinted of Saki with super human level of luck and she is either a demon or a god and its funny when we fans looked at Saki as an overlord or demon lord while the manga shown Shizu, her supposedly enemy is a Buddha or a god and Awai as the star or universe.

Also in the ED song. Teru was shown fighting Satoha and maybe Kei (I can only see her rear but the uniform is like her nurse uniform so she is probably her) and an unknown 4th player.
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Old 2013-03-15, 03:05   Link #3348
orangejuicetang
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Well, we've known from the very beginning that Saki is a ridiculous monster of the highest levels just by her ability to be able to get +/- 0 at will (which is a feat more impressive than Rinshan Kaihou imo). But honestly, I don't really think you can really compare Saki and Shizu that much because apart from the fact that they're both the captain players for their teams, there's not much similarities between the two of them. To give an analogy, Saki would be like Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin, somebody established from the very beginning as being really powerful and likely among the best. Whereas Shizu would be more like for lack of a better example off the top of my head, Yusuke the soul detective, who starts off much lower in terms of comparative power to the enemies around him but quickly improves via fights with strong enemies and training. Although in this case all of Shizu's training and 'fights' against strong opponents are shown off screen, which seems to what the main issue comes down to. On one hand, since it seems like Achiga may have only had a predetermined set amount of chapters from the beginning, Ritz may have had to cut some things and compress some things, leading to the mentioned pacing issues, and alot of the mahjong matches were compressed down to only one or two hands, if they were shown at all. Of course, Ritz may have also chosen not to give as obvious hints in order to have the final chapter feel more climatic. I don't know whether it was forced by various issues if a deliberate choice, but it does come at a cost, which has been mentioned and discussed quite extensively already.



But onto another point that just struck me. I'm not very familiar with mountain climbing or the Japanese culture as related to mountain climbing, but Shizu was solo climbing/hiking mountains as early as her first year in middle school if not sooner? Is that dangerous for a person so young to be doing that kind of thing alone or is it one of those things that seems dangerous but is actually pretty safe? (has no idea)
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Old 2013-03-15, 03:22   Link #3349
Marina2
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
But onto another point that just struck me. I'm not very familiar with mountain climbing or the Japanese culture as related to mountain climbing, but Shizu was solo climbing/hiking mountains as early as her first year in middle school if not sooner? Is that dangerous for a person so young to be doing that kind of thing alone or is it one of those things that seems dangerous but is actually pretty safe? (has no idea)
Climbing the mountain can just mean walk up to the top of mountain not literally climbing/hiking .

However, If I have a chance to climb up the tree with her, I will make sure to let her go up first. If You Know What I Mean
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Last edited by Marina2; 2013-03-15 at 03:34.
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Old 2013-03-15, 03:36   Link #3350
teja208
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@cedec0

I really have to agree with on the aspect of how people view Shizu has nothing to do with sexism. It has nothing to do with Shizu shonen hero personality for that matter. From your example of popular shounen manga heroes, they all have a well established fighting style and skill in the field of combat early in the series. People won't regard Goku as strong without his superstrength which we have seen in the first few episodes, same goes with Naruto and Luffy if we didn't see their cloning jutsu and rubberband powers early on.

However, in Shizu case, do we really know anything regarding her playing style or skill in the field of mahjong early on? Nothing in particular. In fact, we don't know much about how the rest of Achiga ablities and playstyle aside from Kuro in the first few chapters. In your long post, it seems even you admit on this when it comes to Shizu.

Quote:
So did Ritz create a character with weak mahjong skills and then let her win against a hyped up mahjong monster? No. Reader preconceptions of Shizuno as zero-skilled "monkey" are not supported by anything in the manga (not enought of Shizuno's mahjong playing was shown to be able to gauge her strenght). However, while Ritz did not reveal Shizuno's strenght until the semi-final, she did openly and consistently portrayed Shizuno as Saki's future rival (Saki and Shizuno's shadows in the anime logos, the encounter between Saki and Shizuno, Shizuno interest in Saki as "someone she must defeat", putting Shizuno in the Captain position, etc). Now, it is logical to assume that the mahjong skills of someone portrayed as "Saki's future rival" would turn out to Saki-level when they were revealled. For "Saki's future rival" to defeat Awai is not an "asspull
The bold part says it. We never get to see her skill which doesn't autometically means she's a monster, but yes it can go either way, and I have to agree with your analysis that some people are too quick to draw conclusion that Shizu skill = bag of chips, but same can be said about your Shizu = Saki level monster which is the opposite end. Most of your reasoning as to why Shizu is a monster seems to the underline part which is the author set her up to be Saki's future rival (for the team tournament). But then again it's not entire logical since it has nothing to do with strength just your own subjective opinion of what makes a good rival (for Saki).

There is this one thing I don't understand regarding Ritz-sensei's writing: why did she choose to put more focus on Kuro's matches in the early chapters instead of the leads like Shizu and Ako. If she wants people to start rooting for Shizu as Saki's future rival she should put more spotlight on her matches.

Last edited by teja208; 2013-03-15 at 03:46.
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Old 2013-03-15, 04:17   Link #3351
tsunade666
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You know. The only thing Achiga has done is to showcase how much of a natural disaster is Teru and Saki is indeed her sister. Miyanaga sisters are indeed monsters or demon lords.

That's the only good part that I like in Achiga. Awai doesn't leave up to her hype which disappoints me and really I didn't expect anything from achiga. Only from Shiraitodai that's why when they lost to Achiga. That's a big SHOCK for the fans.

But at least its establish that Teru as an enemy is equal to your dead.
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Old 2013-03-15, 07:04   Link #3352
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
I start re-watching Saki BD season 1 and I notice that since the beginning that buchou already hinted of Saki with super human level of luck and she is either a demon or a god and its funny when we fans looked at Saki as an overlord or demon lord while the manga shown Shizu, her supposedly enemy is a Buddha or a god and Awai as the star or universe.

Also in the ED song. Teru was shown fighting Satoha and maybe Kei (I can only see her rear but the uniform is like her nurse uniform so she is probably her) and an unknown 4th player.
That's the last year's individual finals. Teru/Kei/Satoha/4th person.
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Old 2013-03-15, 14:01   Link #3353
Serperior
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Ahhh...! Next Spring, Saki Zenkoku-hen will be airing! It's either next month or April 2014. Still good news!
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Old 2013-03-15, 14:14   Link #3354
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Serperior View Post


Ahhh...! Next Spring, Saki Zenkoku-hen will be airing! It's either next month or April 2014. Still good news!
Hmm...
Saki Zenkoku-hen
Next spring TV anime adaption big confirmation
April 25 (Thursday) two volume simultaneous release?

April 25 only falls on a Thursday this year, in 2014 the closest Thursday would be April 24. That means it's confirmed for next month.

This is a bit unexpected as I would have liked for them to do a full 2-cours. Calling it the "Nationals arc" when it's just a quarterfinals match kinda doesn't match. I guess I'm glad we will be getting more anime so soon, though.

I wonder what the "second volume simultaneous release" is talking about. Which second volume? Or is it talking about the ending of Achiga? We still haven't gotten eps. 15 and 16, after all.

I guess Ritz's hospitalization made completing the side-b semifinals in time for a 2 cours run out of the question. I wouldn't actually have minded waiting until next April though.
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-15 at 16:37.
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Old 2013-03-15, 14:25   Link #3355
tsunade666
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Its not next year but next month!?
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Old 2013-03-15, 14:32   Link #3356
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Yet it hasn't been in the upcoming spring previews yet, I wouldn't get too excited just yet. Lets wait for more information.
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Old 2013-03-15, 16:36   Link #3357
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Hmm...
Saki Zenkoku-hen
Next spring TV anime adaption big confirmation
April 25 (Thursday) second volume simultaneous release?

April 25 only falls on a Thursday this year, in 2014 the closest Thursday would be April 24. That means it's confirmed for next month.

This is a bit unexpected as I would have liked for them to do a full 2-cours. Calling it the "Nationals arc" when it's just a quarterfinals match kinda doesn't match. I guess I'm glad we will be getting more anime so soon, though.

I wonder what the "second volume simultaneous release" is talking about. Which second volume? Or is it talking about the ending of Achiga? We still haven't gotten eps. 15 and 16, after all.

I guess Ritz's hospitalization made completing the side-b semifinals in time for a 2 cours run out of the question. I wouldn't actually have minded waiting until next April though.
Hmm. So some other translator on /a/ identified the "volumes" in the April 25th date to be Achiga vol.5 and Saki vol. 11. That makes sense to me, in which case the April 25th date does not apply to the anime. Spring 2014 should be thus be Zenkoku-hen's broadcast date as expected, then.
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Old 2013-03-15, 16:53   Link #3358
teja208
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Next Spring? Good. I'm fine waiting that long if it ensures Zenkoku-hen will get two cours adaptation (side B quart and semi) down the road. Just hope Ritz can manage to finish the semi on time and taking care of herself not get hospitalized again for a year then everything is well set.
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Old 2013-03-15, 18:56   Link #3359
momonae
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Hmm........B) is a bit wrong. The true flag (and the reason why they entered the tournament from the begin with) is they want to play with Nodoka in national. That alone is the hint that Ritz planed to make Achiga reach final round from the begining.
I don't think they literally meant what they said. I think what it really signifies is that they want to meet up with Nodoka as ones who stand on the same ground as Nodoka and not the ones who came to cheer for or envy her. In other words, they want to be equal friends.

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I do want to touch one two points on your point 2. For the first part, ironically it was kind of the opposite, I think. They were described as quite competent/good/whatever by quite a few characters, it's just that Ritz really show their competency that well (or rather it almost feels like at times she went out of her way to make them appear incompetent but that's a whole another topic). Also, it wasn't that Senriyama was fleshed out, it was Toki that was fleshed out. I don't really think the rest of Senriyama even got a tenth of the development that Toki did.
I won't argue on how they are actually competent because I simply said my impression I initially got from what the author seemed to try to make. As for Senriyama, I meant rather Ryuuka and Sera especially than Toki and what was in mind is rather their characters than what they did. IMO, the two are well-made and have depth in their character as supporting character, it's not that they are completely unique and there are many similar characters but I have not seen the depths and believability they got even in Shoujo manga before. On the other hand, Toki is not very far away from a type of usual predictable protagonist and its character, though I still think Toki is also a well-made character.
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Old 2013-03-15, 23:11   Link #3360
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Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
Next Spring? Good. I'm fine waiting that long if it ensures Zenkoku-hen will get two cours adaptation (side B quart and semi) down the road. Just hope Ritz can manage to finish the semi on time and taking care of herself not get hospitalized again for a year then everything is well set.
If she stays healthy i think they would be cutting it close with the semis just like she did with the first. As you said i can wait if its quarter and semi's.
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