AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-16, 14:01   Link #12861
Iby
minority spirit(?)
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hyakka Ryoran
Age: 23
Send a message via ICQ to Iby
Though after rereading the last pages I believe that talking about how "Medaka-chan is running forward" and that "I need to do something too" was just an example. Still I can't see him stopping to love her. It's just about a time he has left working at a student council. Once it's over they'll marry of course. That Black-something arc wasn't there for nothing.
So yeah, I guess people can continue dreaming about other pairings and such
Iby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 14:03   Link #12862
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
I was never saying that he's stopped loving her, or that he will(even though I want him to).

I'm just pointing out that his life, what he wants to do at the moment, now takes precedence over his need for her love, when it used to be the other way around. That's his change.

And that's a huge development for him. He's matured deeply ever since "The day the moon dissapeared", since now, he's sure that Medaka has recovered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gel
Of course. It's not bad to dream to please yourself
Hey, that's what fanfiction exists for!
__________________

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-03-16 at 14:33.
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 14:54   Link #12863
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
The one thing I'm sure of in regards to Medaka x Zen's relationship, is that Medaka will never stop loving Zenkichi. It's just not a possibility for her. Of course, it's also not a possibility for Zenkichi, but that's been well-stated. But, by all means, continue to think that this is going to happen, merely so that, if it did, you would be able to once again start up with the whole "Kumagawa x Medaka are obviously going to become a couple", but, as most everyone knows, none of that is going to happen. Also, if you actually read Medaka's words in this chapter as she was saying goodbye to Zenkichi, you would understand that her love for Zen is deeper than you are willing to admit. No one gets over someone they have loved since the age of two in one small arc. If it didn't happen in the first 186 chapters, it's definitely not going to happen as the manga is nearing its end.They're simply going to become better and more individualistic people, primarily Zenkichi, at which point, upon reuniting with one another, they will inevitably come closer to the marriage that has been one of the most defined foreshadowings in the entire story up to this point.
The one thing you are sure of is a troll, lol. What makes you so sure there's anything you can always believe in or count on? At the start of the manga, we might have thought "there's no way Medaka will ever stop believing she's meant to help people", right? Or "there's no way Medaka will ever lose to her enemies". Etc. etc. There are so many basic fundamental premises in this series which have been overturned, what makes you think Medaka's 'love'/dependence on Zen is an exception?

Quote:
Her love for Zenkichi, though very sporadically noticeable, is one of the only elements of her characterization that actually relates her to the humanistic nature of the world. If she were to unrealistically shed that particular inclinnation, she'd only be more ridiculously alienated from actual depth.
'Realistic' != depth. Medaka's strength and intelligence is unrealistic in the first place. For such an unrealistic existence, it is actually more realistic for them to become similarly emotionally independent. The 'human depth' that Medaka should have as a character should be the human depth of actual human 'geniuses', not 'humanity' in the sense that panders to the understanding of your average neanderthalic shounen reader.

There are no actual Medaka fans who like her solely for her rare moments of showing dependency on Zen. Not only would they be missing out on the majority of her meaningful characterization, but the idea of reducing a human to that in the very first place is utterly sickening.

Quote:
I completely agree about his disdain for ever being similar to Hanten, but that doesn't indicate that his love for Medaka has diminished at all, only that it's thankfully changed into something far more mature. He realizes that he'll only be able to grow and become someone who's life isn't solely determined by his love for Medaka with this decision to temporarily be separated from her side, but he's also obviously aware that it's not permanent, or else their conversation would have likely been considerably more dramatic.
The conversation was pretty damned dramatic. Zenkichi has previously defined his entire existence as "the one who will never leave Medaka's side". Medaka had also previously taken for granted "I will never be lonely (despite this being my greatest fear), because Zenkichi will always catch up to me". With Zenkichi refusing Medaka's expectation that he would go with her, he has changed the entire fundamental basis of their relationship. He has abandoned the sole fundamental reason why Medaka 'loved'/was emotionally dependent on him in the first place. Medaka and Zenkichi's "goodbye" could very certainly develop into a permanent one, because there is precisely nothing holding their relationship together anymore.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 15:29   Link #12864
ccie20012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
You are not correct (in my opinion) are interpreting the word Zen.
He spoke - "like Hanten-san".
Who is Hanten Shiranui? For Ajimu. Maybe it's her boyfriend? Maybe this is her fiance?
No, no, no.
I think after this arc Zen x Medaka relationship will become stronger.
In general, because Medaka - is the main character. She has a small "man's" character. And Zen now a little tsundere.
ccie20012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 15:33   Link #12865
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The one thing you are sure of is a troll, lol. What makes you so sure there's anything you can always believe in or count on? At the start of the manga, we might have thought "there's no way Medaka will ever stop believing she's meant to help people", right? Or "there's no way Medaka will ever lose to her enemies". Etc. etc. There are so many basic fundamental premises in this series which have been overturned, what makes you think Medaka's 'love'/dependence on Zen is an exception?
Love != dependency. Her dependency will likely disappear, but I can't imagine that her love for Zen ever will, since nothing has ever indicated that to be a permanent possibility for her. Though trolls have been a constant occurrence throughout the story, I find it extremely hard to believe that their relationship will undergo a similar fate, especially after it's been ingrained into the story and their characters so heavily before now. It can and likely will be altered, of course, but a permanent abandonment of their relationship easily remains one of the least likely developments for this story, IMO. I'll need far more substantial narrative evidence before I even begin to assume that the lasting nature of their relationship and eventual marriage is anything but an inevitability.

Quote:
'Realistic' != depth. Medaka's strength and intelligence is unrealistic in the first place. For such an unrealistic existence, it is actually more realistic for them to become similarly emotionally independent. The 'human depth' that Medaka should have as a character should be the human depth of actual human 'geniuses', not 'humanity' in the sense that panders to the understanding of your average neanderthalic shounen reader.

There are no actual Medaka fans who like her solely for her rare moments of showing dependency on Zen. Not only would they be missing out on the majority of her meaningful characterization, but the idea of reducing a human to that in the very first place is utterly sickening.
Put simply, her love for Zenkichi is one of the only qualities she possesses that is distinctly normal. Of course, her dependency on said love, similar to Zenkichi's dependency, was quite unhealthy for both and inevitably destined to be discarded, but, rather than "depth", which was a bit of a misstatement, it does add considerably to her characterization, since it's removed from the plethora of "super-human" traits she currently possesses.

Quote:
The conversation was pretty damned dramatic. Zenkichi has previously defined his entire existence as "the one who will never leave Medaka's side". Medaka had also previously taken for granted "I will never be lonely (despite this being my greatest fear), because Zenkichi will always catch up to me". With Zenkichi refusing Medaka's expectation that he would go with her, he has changed the entire fundamental basis of their relationship. He has abandoned the sole fundamental reason why Medaka 'loved'/was emotionally dependent on him in the first place.
The conversation was certainly dramatic on Medaka's side, but I was largely referring to Zenkichi's role in the conversation, as he was smiling throughout, and I highly doubt that would be the case if he's expecting her to be gone forever. Really though, can you honestly envision the manga ending without Medaka and Zenkichi together. I think the only possibility of that happening is if one of them dies or the manga is altogether cancelled prior to the conclusion.

Quote:
Medaka and Zenkichi's "goodbye" could very certainly develop into a permanent one, because there is precisely nothing holding their relationship together anymore.
So...the fact that they are engaged and still love each other, even beyond those minimal parameters, isn't enough to hold it together? I find that absurd. Their love, like themselves, can and likely will evolve and eventually mature.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 15:42   Link #12866
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Look, Sol. I get where you're coming from. Honest. I probably hate Medaka x Zen ten times more than you, do.
But, they're inevitably going to end up toguether. It's just going to happen, one way or the other. That's just an unfortunate fact that has to be accepted.

Yes. Zen isn't an addict of Medaka's love anymore. He just dumped her offer(probably one which entailed getting laid every night), for a time in his life away from her.
And that's awesome. We should find that awesome. Zen's growing. He hates the fact that he was so needy of Medaka's love that he was missing out in living the life that he wanted to, and he's finally decided to have some time to live that. Finally realized that he hated how he was acting and that he's not satisfied anymore with *just* Medaka.

But, let's be honest. Could this evolve into them not loving each other anymore? Zen abandoning it completely because he either finds someone else or feel like he's grown past it?

Yeah.

Could Medaka stop loving him for, I dunno, X reasons?

yeah.

But is it likely?

No.

It's, like, a 1% chance, at best.
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 16:15   Link #12867
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Love != dependency
This is the fundamental thing you will have to prove. Not in general, but specifically in Medaka's case. What evidence is there that Zenkichi holds any special meaning to Medaka besides her dependence on his dedication which will protect her from loneliness? Zenkichi did previously give her a meaning to her existence, but then he took it away. The one thing which has maintained Medaka's love for Zenkichi ever since then was that even without her meaning for existence, she trusted that Zenkichi would always be there for her.

Zenkichi's proposal itself was merely a formalization of that dedication to their future together. Why would Medaka be happy to be engaged to Zenkichi? Because it formally symbolized Zenkichi's promise that they would always be together. That promise is specifically what Zenkichi has reneged on in this chapter (to the benefit of both of their characters). There is no reason to expect the engagement itself to be upheld past this chapter, unless you expect Zen to grow backwards from his character development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
...

But, let's be honest. Could this evolve into them not loving each other anymore? Zen abandoning it completely because he either finds someone else or feel like he's grown past it?

Yeah.

Could Medaka stop loving him for, I dunno, X reasons?

yeah.

But is it likely?

No.

It's, like, a 1% chance, at best.
Character growth is the point of any character-driven story. That's what Medaka Box is, and from a character development point of view, Zenkichi and Medaka 'growing past' their love for each other should be a given. I give it a far higher probability of happening than you, and that is grounded in any modicum of respect Nishio might have for himself as a writer with literary self-integrity.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 16:39.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 16:47   Link #12868
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Zenkichi's proposal itself was merely a formalization of that dedication to their future together. Why would Medaka be happy to be engaged to Zenkichi? Because it formally symbolized Zenkichi's promise that they would always be together. That promise is specifically what Zenkichi has reneged on in this chapter (to the benefit of both of their characters). There is no reason to expect the engagement itself to be upheld past this chapter, unless you expect Zen to grow backwards from his character development.
There's really no reason to expect the engagement to not be upheld, and I don't understand why Zen's desire for independence equates to a complete annihilation of their mutual love for one another or their inevitable marriage. It certainly doesn't indicate a reversion of his character development, since he only stipulated that he wants to live for himself as well. He clearly wasn't suggesting that he could never live beside Medaka, but only that it can no longer be his sole concern, which is a subtlety that appears to be lost on some.

Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to.

Quote:
Character growth is the point of any character-driven story. That's what Medaka Box is, and from a character development point of view, Zenkichi and Medaka 'growing past' their love for each other should be a given. I give it a far higher probability of happening than you, and that is grounded in any modicum of respect Nishio might have for himself as a writer with literary self-integrity.
If their love was an altogether detrimental emotion, then you'd have a point about their need for a growth away from that, but it's never been wholly illustrated as such. The absurd dependency, on the other hand, is what their characters should and evidently will "grow out of".

Seriously? Your notions of what should occur between Zenkichi and Medaka does not automatically signify "literary self-integrity", and the opposite certainly doesn't strip it away. That's some flawed reasoning.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 16:47   Link #12869
ccie20012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
I think 1% is a very good chance. I would say a much smaller values = 10^-10.
Recall the last arc.
Oh, Ajimu died. Oh, Medaka died. Exactly exactly died.
Oh, do not die - but certainly missing from the manga.
Yes, yes of course. About 15 pages of manga (for Medaka).
[sarcasm]
Of course, I stand by my opinion that the Zen acts like an idiot. Almost like an idiot.
But in general, I do not see what is threatening the pair.
ccie20012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 16:56   Link #12870
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
There's really no reason to expect the engagement to not be upheld, and I don't understand why Zen's desire for independence equates to a complete annihilation of their mutual love for one another or their inevitable marriage. It certainly doesn't indicate a reversion of his character development, since he only stipulated that he wants to live for himself as well. He clearly wasn't suggesting that he could never live beside Medaka, but only that it can no longer be his sole concern, which is a subtlety that appears to be lost on some.

Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to.
^

I pretty much think this is what's gonna happen in the future.

Don't get me wrong, though. I actually do want him to grow out of his love for her, personally.

But, hey. Fanfiction is there for a reason, am I right?
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 18:23   Link #12871
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
First of all, you guys have got something wrong. There is no sense that Zenkichi was ever really 'dependent' on Medaka. He's just been living with the kind of retarded teenage idea of "I should live my entire life for this woman" for quite some time. It's the kind of idea that arises from a combination of unbearably simplistic, reductionist idealism, and thinking with your dick.

Zenkichi's 'maturation' represents a graduation from this sort of close-minded self-conception (i.e. that "a man's life revolves around a woman." Of course, I find the reciprocate idea, "a woman's life revolves around a man", equally disgusting as well, but that's a separate battle). Zenkichi was however never dependent on Medaka in any practical or emotional sense. If you insisted on calling what Zenkichi felt for Medaka a 'dependency', the most accurate would probably be an intellectual dependency, in terms of how he saw the world.

Anyway, with that clarified, speaking now of Medaka's case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to.
How do you even come to this conclusion, though? Where can you find any evidence that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi isn't just her emotional dependency? The fact that Medaka went and issued a dramatic "goodbye" over this incident certainly indicates that her trust in Zenkichi's dedication was by far and away the most significant part of her feelings for him.

Medaka's attachment to Zen has always indicated an infantile, incomplete, flawed and unsustainable dependence on him. As I said before, before you can continue with your premise that Medaka's 'love' for Zen is not completely defined by her dependency on him, you are going to have to first find evidence of any sort of feeling from Medaka not based on dependency, post-ch. 140, at all.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 19:21.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 19:33   Link #12872
Lupus753
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Sol, you keep saying that others have to find evidence that Medaka's love is not dependency. But I say to you that saying a person's love is a form of dependency is a far more unusual statement, so I believe that you are the one who should be getting evidence for this debate.
Lupus753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 20:11   Link #12873
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
lol, I've never said that Medaka's 'love' was a form of dependency. The reason I've been using quotation marks around 'love' all this time because Medaka has never shown any actual love for Zenkichi in the first place. All she has ever shown is emotional dependency, and this would be clear to anyone who has actually paid attention to her characterization.

My evidence is pretty much any freakin' scene about Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi in the entire series. I can't be assed to actually go through and list or explain them all, so if you really want to argue otherwise just pick any one you like.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 20:37   Link #12874
Lupus753
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
I say this because Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi never looked like any form of dependency to me, so I have no idea where to start.
Lupus753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 20:47   Link #12875
Daniel E.
AniMexican!
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
I would like to remind everybody that posting links to scanlation sites is not allowed here, nor is it allowed to mention sites that provide licensed or RAW content.

We have posted this warning many times over across the whole forum and if people continue to ignore this, we will be left with no choice but to hand out direct bans to anyone that refuses to listen.


Do not post images that clearly show the name of the host site either.
__________________
Daniel E. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 21:07   Link #12876
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
The basis of Medaka's character is: 1) she's isolated from other people because of her abilities, and 2) due to the difficulty of finding a place where she's accepted on account of her abilities, she has trouble understanding the point or purpose of her life.

Medaka is emotionally dependent on Zen because he accepted her. In the beginning, he even gave her a purpose which could potentially make other people accept her. For that reason, Medaka depended on Zenkichi's purpose for her, and his belief in that purpose, to fight against the loneliness of being isolated for a long time.

After a while, Zenkichi took away Medaka's purpose and told her he had been mistaken about it. This left Medaka to discover some more genuine way to connect to people on her own. However, despite losing her purpose, the most important thing for Medaka was still there: the fact that at least one person (Zenkichi) was still there who would always accept/understand her.

Because Zenkichi would basically always exist as that sort of security blanket for her, Medaka would never truly need to grow or try hard to develop beyond her inability to communicate with others. Although Medaka set off on her own to discover her purpose in the universe amongst other humans, Zenkichi's proposal to Medaka was essentially a confirmation that she wouldn't need it in the end. Medaka's happy response to it indicated that that security blanket is something which she wanted emotionally, but in terms of personal growth it has never been something portrayed as necessarily good for her.

Medaka and Zenkichi's engagement has never represented anything which would be positive for their character development. In fact it is an obstacle. Medaka's love for Zenkichi has never been portrayed as anything besides a security blanket for her loneliness; a final safety against the possibility of her inability to communicate with others. However, in fact, Medaka successfully learning to communicate with others is absolutely necessary -- it is the fundamental point of all her character development.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
I would like to remind everybody that posting links to scanlation sites is not allowed here, nor is it allowed to mention sites that provide licensed or RAW content.

We have posted this warning many times over across the whole forum and if people continue to ignore this, we will be left with no choice but to hand out direct bans to anyone that refuses to listen.


Do not post images that clearly show the name of the host site either.
Pretty random. I guess this is just a general warning? Or are there specific examples of transgressions in this thread.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 21:26.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 21:08   Link #12877
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
How do you even come to this conclusion, though? Where can you find any evidence that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi isn't just her emotional dependency? The fact that Medaka went and issued a dramatic "goodbye" over this incident certainly indicates that her trust in Zenkichi's dedication was by far and away the most significant part of her feelings for him.

Medaka's attachment to Zen has always indicated an infantile, incomplete, flawed and unsustainable dependence on him. As I said before, before you can continue with your premise that Medaka's 'love' for Zen is not completely defined by her dependency on him, you are going to have to first find evidence of any sort of feeling from Medaka not based on dependency, post-ch. 140, at all.
Quote:
lol, I've never said that Medaka's 'love' was a form of dependency. The reason I've been using quotation marks around 'love' all this time because Medaka has never shown any actual love for Zenkichi in the first place. All she has ever shown is emotional dependency, and this would be clear to anyone who has actually paid attention to her characterization.

My evidence is pretty much any freakin' scene about Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi in the entire series. I can't be assed to actually go through and list or explain them all, so if you really want to argue otherwise just pick any one you like.
For starters, Medaka's confession and subsequent kiss, but "dependency" is such a nebulous concept that I'm not entirely certain which of their interactions you'd consider to be moments that fall under that particular descriptor. I mean, if that romantic flourish was solely indicative of dependency for you, then I don't really know what else to say, since that moment perfectly illustrated that her feelings for him had, at the very least, slightly evolved past the early stages of only identifying him as an indistinct figure to constantly stand by her side. I'm fairly certain that it's much more complex than that.

I certainly agree that her love for him can be considered flawed, but so can Zenkichi's for her, but the flawed aspects have rarely outweighed the beneficial ones for me, which is why I'm expecting the seemingly inevitable maturity that both will acquire will naturally eliminate several of those completely realistic "flaws".
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 21:41   Link #12878
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
For starters, Medaka's confession and subsequent kiss, but "dependency" is such a nebulous concept that I'm not entirely certain which of their interactions you'd consider to be moments that fall under that particular descriptor. I mean, if that romantic flourish was solely indicative of dependency for you, then I don't really know what else to say, since that moment perfectly illustrated that her feelings for him had, at the very least, slightly evolved past the early stages of only identifying him as an indistinct figure to constantly stand by her side. I'm fairly certain that it's much more complex than that.
If you're referring to the kiss in ch. 140, it's precisely the opposite. Medaka's confession and emotions in that chapter were exactly based on the fact that although she had her entire life's purpose stripped away from her, Medaka felt that she could at least count on Zenkichi always being there for her. Because, after all, the way Zenkichi put it, he had even defeated her for her own sake. Zenkichi's devotion was the only thing which shone through to Medaka in that moment, which makes sense because, hey! Ajimu had just helped Zenkichi 'realize' that loving Medaka was the purpose of his entire life.

Quote:
I certainly agree that her love for him can be considered flawed, but so can Zenkichi's for her, but the flawed aspects have rarely outweighed the beneficial ones for me, which is why I'm expecting the seemingly inevitable maturity that both will acquire will naturally eliminate several of those completely realistic "flaws".
lol, for fucking sure I also consider Zenkichi's love for Medaka equally flawed. That's why I've been rooting for him to get over it. There's no reason why Zenkichi and Medaka's inevitable maturity has to lead to them getting back together. Of the few positive aspects of Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship, none of them have anything to do with their obsessive/dependent romantic 'love' for each other, meaning that a 'mature' Medaka and Zenkichi could get on perfectly well (in fact, would probably get on even better) as plain friends.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 22:56   Link #12879
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you're referring to the kiss in ch. 140, it's precisely the opposite. Medaka's confession and emotions in that chapter were exactly based on the fact that although she had her entire life's purpose stripped away from her, Medaka felt that she could at least count on Zenkichi always being there for her. Because, after all, the way Zenkichi put it, he had even defeated her for her own sake. Zenkichi's devotion was the only thing which shone through to Medaka in that moment, which makes sense because, hey! Ajimu had just helped Zenkichi 'realize' that loving Medaka was the purpose of his entire life.
Yeah…I don’t see much dependency in that at all; certainly not to the level you're suggesting, and even if, for arguments sake, it played a part in her thought process, it wasn’t the sole contributor to her outburst of rare affection. I honestly think you’re reading far too much into ordinary relationship development, while consequently manipulating their entire history into some narrative that solely implies a destructive conclusion to their romance.

Essentially, the dependency is an increasingly minuscule factor in her love for Zenkichi and it's a bit strange to blanket all of their relationship development with a singular aspect of Medaka's connection to Zenkichi that was far more integral when they were young.

Quote:
lol, for fucking sure I also consider Zenkichi's love for Medaka equally flawed. That's why I've been rooting for him to get over it. There's no reason why Zenkichi and Medaka's inevitable maturity has to lead to them getting back together. Of the few positive aspects of Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship, none of them have anything to do with their obsessive/dependent romantic 'love' for each other, meaning that a 'mature' Medaka and Zenkichi could get on perfectly well (in fact, would probably get on even better) as plain friends.
Of course, they could very well get along nicely as friends, and I’m sure some would greatly prefer that, but there’s no fragment of significant evidence that suggests that their relationship won’t naturally return to that of a romantic one. They’d have to first cease loving one another, and, as I’ve mentioned countless times, this temporary separation isn’t nearly enough to produce such a result.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 23:23   Link #12880
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
Yeah…I don’t see much dependency in that at all; certainly not to the level you're suggesting, and even if, for arguments sake, it played a part in her thought process, it wasn’t the sole contributor to her outburst of rare affection. I honestly think you’re reading far too much into ordinary relationship development, while consequently manipulating their entire history into some narrative that solely implies a destructive conclusion to their romance.

Essentially, the dependency is an increasingly minuscule factor in her love for Zenkichi and it's a bit strange to blanket all of their relationship development with a singular aspect of Medaka's connection to Zenkichi that was far more integral when they were young.
"Ordinary relationship development" lol. "Miniscule factor" lol. You still haven't identified how anything besides dependency was ever shown in that scene at all.

Go to the pre-serialization oneshot or another of the very earliest chapters of the series. Medaka says that "Zenkichi's the man who won't ever let me be alone". Go to Medaka's confrontation with Bukiko just before Zenkichi arrives in the Jet Black Wedding arc. Medaka says "Zenkichi's the one who will always catch up to my side". The entire basis of Medaka's 'love' for Zen has always been based on her faith and belief in his dedication to her. Her expectation that he would always be her final answer against loneliness. That is the entirety of her feelings for Zen. She has zero connection to him aside from that.

Seriously, what exactly was your argument? "Medaka kissed Zen, therefore she doesn't emotionally depend on him"? Was that your actual attempt at an answer or am I mistaking something? I'm still waiting for any (ANY) evidence that Medaka's feelings for Zen involved anything besides being happy about his complete dedication to her. I hardly care whether you "buy" my arguments or not if you can't even suggest a coherent alternative.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 40/5 :: Locodol 24/5 :: Yama no Susume 32/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.