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Old 2013-03-17, 00:39   Link #12881
zigantz22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
"Ordinary relationship development" lol.
I still don't understand how this is an inaccurate perception, since it was only presented as such. IMO, at least.

Quote:
"Miniscule factor" lol. You still haven't identified how anything besides dependency was ever shown in that scene at all.

Go to the pre-serialization oneshot or another of the very earliest chapters of the series. Medaka says that "Zenkichi's the man who won't ever let me be alone". Go to Medaka's confrontation with Bukiko just before Zenkichi arrives in the Jet Black Wedding arc. Medaka says "Zenkichi's the one who will always catch up to my side". The entire basis of Medaka's 'love' for Zen has always been based on her faith and belief in his dedication to her. Her expectation that he would always be her final answer against loneliness. That is the entirety of her feelings for Zen. She has zero connection to him aside from that.

Seriously, what exactly was your argument? "Medaka kissed Zen, therefore she doesn't emotionally depend on him"? Was that your actual attempt at an answer or am I mistaking something? I'm still waiting for any (ANY) evidence that Medaka's feelings for Zen involved anything besides being happy about his complete dedication to her. I hardly care whether you "buy" my arguments or not if you can't even suggest a coherent alternative.
You still havenít identified the dependency that was evidently shown in that scene, aside from several highly subjective inferences towards the meaning of her confession. You interpret her choosing to confess and kiss him as a furtherance of her inability to admire anything but his devotion towards her, whereas I perceive it to be considerably more than that. I see a physical attraction and a surprising realization of her romantic feelings for him. I see her rewarding his kindness with a display of affection simply due to a temporary desire for intimacy, which wouldnít have existed if an emotional dependence remained her only reason for seeing him as an individual.

My argument was that there is actual love within Medakaís feelings for Zen, and though I could simply wait for the rest of this arc to thoroughly prove my point, I felt compelled to offer a contention to your assumption that she has no connection to him beyond a need for his presence. Heís easily the most important person in her life, due to a plethora of reasons that far extend beyond mere dependency, or, otherwise, she could have simply decided to fall for Kumagawa, since he too could have saved her from her loneliness, and yet she never has.

Regardless, itís not as though I think their relationship has incredible depth, which is why Iíve repeatedly mentioned that Zenkichi and Medaka need to mature as individuals before it progresses even further. Though occasionally complex, Zenkichi and Medakaís feelings for one another are typically simplistic. However, this simplicity, IMO, at least when concerning Medaka, no longer exists solely due to emotional dependence, and, though she occasionally references Zenkichiís inability to stray by her side, I donít feel that it heavily motivates her anymore.

Really though, what would exactly be a satisfying and cohesive ďalternativeĒ for you, to the point where youíd actually agree with what Iím suggesting? Iíve always perceived a slight dependency in both Medaka and Zenkichiís love for one another, and though Medakaís was more prevalent throughout the early portions of the story, theyíve both matured into legitimately loving one another, though they still, of course, have a long way to go before their relationship is entirely healthy.

Basically, itís natural for her to be disappointed and upset that the man she loves isn't accompanying her, which is why I find the supposed implications that this arc will partially focus on Medakaís realization that sheís ďfallen out of loveĒ with Zenkichi to be unrealistic and nearly impossible. My argument, at itís core, was pertaining to this, prior to the distraction of divergent tangents.
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Old 2013-03-17, 01:01   Link #12882
Iby
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...o-bouquet-toss
Is it something that needs ANN's coverage?
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Old 2013-03-17, 01:52   Link #12883
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
You still haven’t identified the dependency that was evidently shown in that scene, aside from several highly subjective inferences towards the meaning of her confession. You interpret her choosing to confess and kiss him as a furtherance of her inability to admire anything but his devotion towards her, whereas I perceive it to be considerably more than that. I see a physical attraction and a surprising realization of her romantic feelings for him. I see her rewarding his kindness with a display of affection simply due to a temporary desire for intimacy, which wouldn’t have existed if an emotional dependence remained her only reason for seeing him as an individual.
So now your argument is down to projecting a unprovable, non-sequitur physical attraction onto Medaka towards Zenkichi in that moment? How would physical attraction hold any coherency with the events at that moment in the manga at all? And is physical attraction now supposed to maintain Medaka's love for Zenkichi in the future?

Calling Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi 'surprising' is a complete stretch, by the way, given her proposal to him at the age of two. When Naze and other characters said during the True Flask Plan arc that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship hadn't changed for 13 years, they really weren't kidding. Latent romantic attraction to Zenkichi has always existed in Medaka on account of what he means to her (namely, the person who would save her from her loneliness); she even had a prior confession scene in ch. 35 or 36. The reason Medaka herself never pushed for a romantic relationship was only because she retained the memory of his rejection--she thought he wasn't interested.

Can you justify calling Zenkichi's "kindness" different from Zenkichi's devotion to her?

The fact is that Medaka has always had a romantic interest in Zenkichi, borne from her immature emotional dependency on him; it was on the basis of this immature dependency that she accepted Zenkichi's proposal, and it is on the basis of this immature dependency that she's disappointed by Zenkichi's rejection now. Having degraded Medaka's character sufficiently by allowing Medaka to retain that immaturity to this point, it is time for Nishio to finally let her grow up.

Quote:
My argument was that there is actual love within Medaka’s feelings for Zen, and though I could simply wait for the rest of this arc to thoroughly prove my point, I felt compelled to offer a contention to your assumption that she has no connection to him beyond a need for his presence. He’s easily the most important person in her life, due to a plethora of reasons that far extend beyond mere dependency, or, otherwise, she could have simply decided to fall for Kumagawa, since he too could have saved her from her loneliness, and yet she never has.
Haha. Of course, I have no problem either with waiting for the manga to lay it all out. My own motive for replying has only been on account of how empty and substanceless your 'contention' was. Honestly, I would've appreciated an actual logical or objective argument, but "IMO" and "Nishio couldn't possibly decide to troll this aspect of this series, despite no concrete/non-superficial in-story justification having EVER been given for it" seems to be all I've managed to get out of you.

Anyway, as far as Kumagawa, I of course do believe that he would be a fully suitable candidate for helping Medaka overcome her loneliness. However, the immediate issue to be had in this arc is only Medaka's weakness/flaw/character development, not the potential resolution to it. The reason Medaka has never considered Kumagawa seriously to date in the manga is because she (thought she) already had Zenkichi. Now she does not. While the recent development is certainly a step on the path towards Medaka x Kumagawa, there's no need to jump ahead of ourselves just yet.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-17 at 02:18.
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Old 2013-03-17, 02:07   Link #12884
Lupus753
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I'm confused, does Zenkichi know that he rejected Medaka at age two. Because when Medaka says it, Zen doesn't say a word. Or maybe I misremembered something.
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Old 2013-03-17, 02:20   Link #12885
silvercover
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
I'm confused, does Zenkichi know that he rejected Medaka at age two. Because when Medaka says it, Zen doesn't say a word. Or maybe I misremembered something.
he probably didnt. I dont think anyone of them has talked to him about it or anyone else really(well, barring ajimu who probably knows...), only medaka and the suitors know about it IIRC.
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Old 2013-03-17, 02:24   Link #12886
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...o-bouquet-toss
Is it something that needs ANN's coverage?
well...alrighty then
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Old 2013-03-17, 12:40   Link #12887
zigantz22
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
So now your argument is down to projecting a unprovable, non-sequitur physical attraction onto Medaka towards Zenkichi in that moment? How would physical attraction hold any coherency with the events at that moment in the manga at all? And is physical attraction now supposed to maintain Medaka's love for Zenkichi in the future?

Calling Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi 'surprising' is a complete stretch, by the way, given her proposal to him at the age of two. When Naze and other characters said during the True Flask Plan arc that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship hadn't changed for 13 years, they really weren't kidding. Latent romantic attraction to Zenkichi has always existed in Medaka on account of what he means to her (namely, the person who would save her from her loneliness); she even had a prior confession scene in ch. 35 or 36.
lol, I'm not projecting an attraction onto Medaka towards Zenkichi. Following the kiss and immediately prior to the confession, she directly mentions how cool he looks to her. I'm just presenting to you what you asked for, which is an aspect of her romantic affections for him in that particular moment that wasn't derived from a dependency. Nothing is even mentioned about her dependency on him, which is solely derived from your subjective interpretation. Regardless, I didn't attest that the physical attraction itself was surprising, but that her obvious romantic feelings for him led to a display of affection that was, in fact, quite surprising. Really, you haven't yet proven how Medaka's sole thought at that moment was dependency with any arguments that substantively denote what Medaka herself inferred.

Quote:
The reason Medaka herself never pushed for a romantic relationship was only because she retained the memory of his rejection--she thought he wasn't interested.
I don't necessarily agree. I've always assumed that Medaka didn't act on her love due to her need to help everybody, which, in her mind, prevented her from focusing on Zenkichi alone. Of course, her need to constantly help everyone was lost when Zenkichi defeated her, which provided Medaka the opportunity to finally act on her romantic interest in him.

Quote:
The fact is that Medaka has always had a romantic interest in Zenkichi, borne from her immature emotional dependency on him; it was on the basis of this immature dependency that she accepted Zenkichi's proposal, and it is on the basis of this immature dependency that she's disappointed by Zenkichi's rejection now. Having degraded Medaka's character sufficiently by allowing Medaka to retain that immaturity to this point, it is time for Nishio to finally let her grow up.
How exactly is it impossible for their love to mature to the point where it no longer possesses even a fraction of a mutual dependency, which, in itself, isn't exactly detrimental. That would be satisfying character development as well, as it would, in turn, allow Medaka to finally grow up. Zenkichi as well, for that matter. All without some need for a complete destruction of their relationship.

Quote:
Haha. Of course, I have no problem either with waiting for the manga to lay it all out. My own motive for replying has only been on account of how empty and substanceless your 'contention' was. Honestly, I would've appreciated an actual logical or objective argument, but "IMO" and "Nishio couldn't possibly decide to troll this aspect of this series, despite no concrete/non-superficial in-story justification having EVER been given for it" seems to be all I've managed to get out of you.
I've mentioned IMO several times, since, unlike you, I don't intend to suggest my interpretation and subsequent predictions of their characterization and eventual development to be entirely "objective". My review for the latest chapter suggests a need for her to mature the most, rather than Zenkichi, due entirely to her naive and flawed perception of him as an individual and their romance as a whole. Also, as I've continuously mentioned and been repeatedly ignored, I find Medaka's partially dependent love for Zenkichi to be quite flawed and in need of an alteration. I've also agreed that she does possess an unfortunate dependency on him, which I somewhat expect to be abandoned in this arc.

This entire argument is largely based on interpretations, and your statements addressing this all-encompassing dependency that's only been occasionally mentioned are just as "substanceless" as you percieve mine to be.

Quote:
Anyway, as far as Kumagawa, I of course do believe that he would be a fully suitable candidate for helping Medaka overcome her loneliness. However, the immediate issue to be had in this arc is only Medaka's weakness/flaw/character development, not the potential resolution to it. The reason Medaka has never considered Kumagawa seriously to date in the manga is because she (thought she) already had Zenkichi. Now she does not. While the recent development is certainly a step on the path towards Medaka x Kumagawa, there's no need to jump ahead of ourselves just yet.
Your absurd delusions about Kumagawa's supposed character development and how that would eventually lead to him acknowledging his "win" whenever he finally attained Medaka's heart were predictably disproved and altogether forgotten in the last chapter. He finally won (albeit in a poorly contrived and rushed manner, of course), thus dissolving the notion that her love was the only thing he desired that would lead him to a proper victory. Thankfully too, since that would have done an even bigger disservice to his character than his win based on the prediction of an inevitability already did. I mean, you've repeatedly mentioned that Zenkichi and Medaka's mutual love is deeply flawed, but isn't Kumagawa's for Medaka as well, since, based on your definition, he would be quite dependant on her if she were to miraculously be his ultimate victory. Medaka x Kumagawa is, quite simply, dead and buried.
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Old 2013-03-17, 12:42   Link #12888
Iby
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The 20th volume of MB will be out on the 04.04
I guess we'll see the better version of a 3rd popularity polls then.
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Old 2013-03-17, 13:34   Link #12889
K. Shiruto
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This new volume better have Tsurubami Fukurou and the girls on the cover. Iihiko should appear on the cover of the 21th volume, because is the last of the arc.

Coincidence or not, as if Nisio carefully collects the chapters, volume 20 ends in chapter 176, so volume 21 will probably end in chapter 185.
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Old 2013-03-17, 13:40   Link #12890
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
He finally won (albeit in a poorly contrived and rushed manner, of course), thus dissolving the notion that her love was the only thing he desired that would lead him to a proper victory. Thankfully too, since that would have done an even bigger disservice to his character than his win based on the prediction of an inevitability already did. I mean, you've repeatedly mentioned that Zenkichi and Medaka's mutual love is deeply flawed, but isn't Kumagawa's for Medaka as well, since, based on your definition, he would be quite dependant on her if she were to miraculously be his ultimate victory. Medaka x Kumagawa is, quite simply, dead and buried.
You know, as much as I hate how Kumagawa's victory was(and I hate it with the burning passion of 1000 suns), I think I'd have been much, much more pissed if his ultimate victory was always and only "I want to Medaka's love"- that's the one character trait I always hated about Zenkichi, thankfully and epically purged in the latest chapter(making my likeness for Zen grow exponentially).

I mean, don't get me wrong, but I feel as though people attribute alot of Kumagawa's character and actions and motives to her, when I think that's disservice to what I think he was doing.
For instance, Kumagawa didn't advice Zenkichi to confess to Medaka because he knew Zen would reflect and do the exact opposite, free Medaka, so he himself would have a better shot.

I don't think so.

Kumagawa was merely helping someone who he considers family. He knew that Zen would need his advice when the time was right, not because Kuma himself still wanted a shot at Medaka, but because all he had left, with the failure of the Naked Apron Alliance, was to watch over Zen - as he himself said.

While some people see that as a manipulation, so he can have "the love of his life" at all costs, I just see that as him backing up his friend in a time of need and reflection, he purposefuly gave Zen the wrong advice so that when the time came, Zen could make the right choice with all his options in mind.

Sorry, I just don't view Kumagawa as this Medaka nut whose actively trying to get in her pants anymore.
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Old 2013-03-17, 14:12   Link #12891
zigantz22
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You know, as much as I hate how Kumagawa's victory was(and I hate it with the burning passion of 1000 suns), I think I'd have been much, much more pissed if his ultimate victory was always and only "I want to Medaka's love"- that's the one character trait I always hated about Zenkichi, thankfully and epically purged in the latest chapter(making my likeness for Zen grow exponentially).

I mean, don't get me wrong, but I feel as though people attribute alot of Kumagawa's character and actions and motives to her, when I think that's disservice to what I think he was doing.
For instance, Kumagawa didn't advice Zenkichi to confess to Medaka because he knew Zen would reflect and do the exact opposite, free Medaka, so he himself would have a better shot.

I don't think so.

Kumagawa was merely helping someone who he considers family. He knew that Zen would need his advice when the time was right, not because Kuma himself still wanted a shot at Medaka, but because all he had left, with the failure of the Naked Apron Alliance, was to watch over Zen - as he himself said.

While some people see that as a manipulation, so he can have "the love of his life" at all costs, I just see that as him backing up his friend in a time of need and reflection, he purposefuly gave Zen the wrong advice so that when the time came, Zen could make the right choice with all his options in mind.

Sorry, I just don't view Kumagawa as this Medaka nut whose actively trying to get in her pants anymore.
Agreed; I've thought his character no longer adheres to the restrictions of a love for Medaka for quite some time, whereas his motivations ultimately lie elsewhere. The alternative would have been immensely detrimental to his character development. Though I've failed to mention it before, the last chapter, despite it's overall mediocrity, thoroughly highlighted Zenkichi as the best character in the story, by far, so I'm hoping that the remainder of this arc will actually shift focus towards him for a bit. I do, however, realize the unfortunate unlikelihood of this.
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Old 2013-03-17, 15:03   Link #12892
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
lol, I'm not projecting an attraction onto Medaka towards Zenkichi. Following the kiss and immediately prior to the confession, she directly mentions how cool he looks to her. I'm just presenting to you what you asked for, which is an aspect of her romantic affections for him in that particular moment that wasn't derived from a dependency. Nothing is even mentioned about her dependency on him, which is solely derived from your subjective interpretation. Regardless, I didn't attest that the physical attraction itself was surprising, but that her obvious romantic feelings for him led to a display of affection that was, in fact, quite surprising. Really, you haven't yet proven how Medaka's sole thought at that moment was dependency with any arguments that substantively denote what Medaka herself inferred.
So you're saying that the display of affection was surprising from a third party perspective? How is that relevant to Medaka's motivations?

Anyway, let me spell it out to you: a coherent explanation for Medaka's emotions in that scene involves: 1) a positive example of something Zenkichi displayed, and 2) an explanation of why Medaka's character should've cared. Physical attraction, as irrelevant as it was to the scene or meaningful character development in general, cannot hope to be applied as a notable factor in the long-term establishment of Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi.

I'll also spell out the causal link for you explicitly. Medaka's principle character weakness, her driving motivation, is her desire not to be alone. When Zenkichi took away her purpose, he stripped away the mechanism Medaka had built up to deal with that. However, at the same time Zenkichi demonstrated his unfailing concern/dedication to Medaka's own well-being, i.e. his devotion to her. Out of gratitude/relief for that devotion, which would protect Medaka from her fundamental fear (loneliness) despite having just lost her all-important independent mechanism for fighting against it, all of Medaka's other emotions in that scene arose.

This is the complete causal link. This is the direct cohesive explanation. All necessary factors are considered, as relevant and portrayed in that scene to Medaka's characterization. Explain to me how any alternative aspect of Medaka's core character (i.e. her loneliness? her ability? her love of battle? her perfect understanding? The overflowing love or rigid discipline she inherited from her parents? etc. Any established characteristic of Medaka at all.) might lead to an alternative interpretation. Please, attempt any non-subjective ("IMO"), non-superficial ("she was physically attracted to him!") explanation at all.

Quote:
I don't necessarily agree. I've always assumed that Medaka didn't act on her love due to her need to help everybody, which, in her mind, prevented her from focusing on Zenkichi alone. Of course, her need to constantly help everyone was lost when Zenkichi defeated her, which provided Medaka the opportunity to finally act on her romantic interest in him.
There was no genuine reason why a romantic love on the side had to interfere with Medaka's 'duty' of helping everybody. Fundamentally, Medaka's fear of loneliness was always a deeper part of her than her 'purpose' of helping others. Furthermore, one of the ideas Zenkichi passed to Medaka after the Flask Plan arc was that to make other people happy, Medaka also had to make herself happy. Saying "I must belong to everybody" was just a convenient excuse to reject others; the principle reason Medaka never acted on her romantic interest was because she thought Zenkichi himself wasn't interested.

Quote:
How exactly is it impossible for their love to mature to the point where it no longer possesses even a fraction of a mutual dependency, which, in itself, isn't exactly detrimental. That would be satisfying character development as well, as it would, in turn, allow Medaka to finally grow up. Zenkichi as well, for that matter. All without some need for a complete destruction of their relationship.
Dude, I already told you that there is no "dependency" to speak of from Zen. In terms of character development from Zen, the only actual path forward for him is to get over Medaka entirely. Aside from that, he has nowhere else to grow. Do you not see how pointless it would be to grant Zen his much foreshadowed character development of getting over Medaka only to stick them back together? Meanwhile, as I've been telling you, Medaka's 'love' to this point has consisted of nothing but dependency. Maturing past her dependency means Medaka will no longer have any basis for being romantically interested in Zen. It is a given that if Medaka and Zenkichi follow the full paths of their character development they will no longer end up together. That's the way this story is: Character relationships and emotions which were set in stasis 14 years ago--change. A pair which used to always be together--learns to be apart. That's it.


Quote:
Your absurd delusions about Kumagawa's supposed character development and how that would eventually lead to him acknowledging his "win" whenever he finally attained Medaka's heart were predictably disproved and altogether forgotten in the last chapter. He finally won (albeit in a poorly contrived and rushed manner, of course), thus dissolving the notion that her love was the only thing he desired that would lead him to a proper victory. Thankfully too, since that would have done an even bigger disservice to his character than his win based on the prediction of an inevitability already did. I mean, you've repeatedly mentioned that Zenkichi and Medaka's mutual love is deeply flawed, but isn't Kumagawa's for Medaka as well, since, based on your definition, he would be quite dependant on her if she were to miraculously be his ultimate victory. Medaka x Kumagawa is, quite simply, dead and buried.
Haha. You seem to be under the impression that Kumagawa's story is remotely over. Kumagawa's bet on the happy return of Medaka just before the end of the graduation ceremony can hardly be considered his final victory--he's not that nice a person. I'm not sure what you're thinking, but you should certainly be prepared to continue seeing Kumagawa make his presence felt in the story, especially considering the latest development.

For the record, victory is something which you take. Kumagawa's victory would be fundamentally different from Medaka x Zenkichi in terms of emotional dependency.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-17 at 15:26.
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Old 2013-03-17, 15:20   Link #12893
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You know, as much as I hate how Kumagawa's victory was(and I hate it with the burning passion of 1000 suns), I think I'd have been much, much more pissed if his ultimate victory was always and only "I want to Medaka's love"- that's the one character trait I always hated about Zenkichi, thankfully and epically purged in the latest chapter(making my likeness for Zen grow exponentially).
There's a fundamental difference between Zen and Kumagawa's 'love' for Medaka: Zenkichi's love is (was) selfless -- submissive, devotional and based on dedication. Kumagawa's meanwhile is selfish -- based on ambition, self-realization, and obtaining what he wants. They can hardly be compared to each other, although one side is healthier for Medaka as a person.

As far as Kumagawa considering Zen a 'bro' or 'family', however, I really have to wonder how delusional people can be. When is there any evidence of Kumagawa holding any particularly friendly feelings for Zenkichi? And where would such feelings come from, in terms of Kumagawa's motivations as a character? The characters in Medaka Box are not such a blank slate or so mysterious that you can simply project any feelings that you want onto them.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2013-03-17, 15:21   Link #12894
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I will marry medaka and kiss her in front of zenkichi and kumagawa , i will also live a good life with all her fortune
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Old 2013-03-17, 19:25   Link #12895
zigantz22
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Anyway, let me spell it out to you: a coherent explanation for Medaka's emotions in that scene involves: 1) a positive example of something Zenkichi displayed, and 2) an explanation of why Medaka's character should've cared. Physical attraction, as irrelevant as it was to the scene or meaningful character development in general, cannot hope to be applied as a notable factor in the long-term establishment of Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi.

This is the complete causal link. This is the direct cohesive explanation. All necessary factors are considered, as relevant and portrayed in that scene to Medaka's characterization. Explain to me how any alternative aspect of Medaka's core character (i.e. her loneliness? her ability? her love of battle? her perfect understanding? The overflowing love or rigid discipline she inherited from her parents? etc. Any established characteristic of Medaka at all.) might lead to an alternative interpretation. Please, attempt any non-subjective ("IMO"), non-superficial ("she was physically attracted to him!") explanation at all.
Look, if you canít even acknowledge the legitimacy of my response to your initial question, then the continuance of this discussion has become rather pointless.

You initially asked me this:

Quote:
Where can you find any evidence that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi isn't just her emotional dependency?

you are going to have to first find evidence of any sort of feeling from Medaka not based on dependency

All she has ever shown is emotional dependency, and this would be clear to anyone who has actually paid attention to her characterization.

My evidence is pretty much any freakin' scene about Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi in the entire series... so if you really want to argue otherwise just pick any one you like.
I then followed with these responses, among other things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22
I see a physical attraction

Following the kiss and immediately prior to the confession, she directly mentions how cool he looks to her. I'm just presenting to you what you asked for, which is an aspect of her romantic affections for him in that particular moment that wasn't derived from a dependency.
The superficiality of this particular emotion doesnít suddenly render it a mute point, nor was that in any way a stipulation in the post I was responding to. It's a legitimate answer to the question that you posed.

Quote:
So you're saying that the display of affection was surprising from a third party perspective? How is that relevant to Medaka's motivations?
It isn't exactly relevant, but you incorrectly assumed that I was suggesting the attraction was surprising. My initial mention of the word was simply a descriptor of the moment.

Quote:
There was no genuine reason why a romantic love on the side had to interfere with Medaka's 'duty' of helping everybody. Fundamentally, Medaka's fear of loneliness was always a deeper part of her than her 'purpose' of helping others. Furthermore, one of the ideas Zenkichi passed to Medaka after the Flask Plan arc was that to make other people happy, Medaka also had to make herself happy. Saying "I must belong to everybody" was just a convenient excuse to reject others; the principle reason Medaka never acted on her romantic interest was because she thought Zenkichi himself wasn't interested.
Regardless though, she did, at least partially, allow her duty to interfere with her desire to indulge her interest in Zenkichi.

Quote:
Dude, I already told you that there is no "dependency" to speak of from Zen. In terms of character development from Zen, the only actual path forward for him is to get over Medaka entirely. Aside from that, he has nowhere else to grow. Do you not see how pointless it would be to grant Zen his much foreshadowed character development of getting over Medaka only to stick them back together? Meanwhile, as I've been telling you, Medaka's 'love' to this point has consisted of nothing but dependency. Maturing past her dependency means Medaka will no longer have any basis for being romantically interested in Zen. It is a given that if Medaka and Zenkichi follow the full paths of their character development they will no longer end up together. That's the way this story is: Character relationships and emotions which were set in stasis 14 years ago--change. A pair which used to always be together--learns to be apart. That's it.
Zen's foreshadowed character development does not mean that he needs to fully "get over" Medaka, but only that she can't be the only reason for his existence and the sole motivator in his life. He directly stated this in the last chapter. As for Medaka, well, we disagree on the dependence matter, so it appears inevitable that she'll mature before they get back together. This would be a natural extension of both Medaka and Zenkichi's romantic arcs. It's certainly not a "given" that they'll be permanently separated. Far from it, actually.

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Haha. You seem to be under the impression that Kumagawa's story is remotely over. Kumagawa's bet on the happy return of Medaka just before the end of the graduation ceremony can hardly be considered his final victory--he's not that nice a person. I'm not sure what you're thinking, but you should certainly be prepared to continue seeing Kumagawa make his presence felt in the story, especially considering the latest development.

For the record, victory is something which you take. Kumagawa's victory would be fundamentally different from Medaka x Zenkichi in terms of emotional dependency.
It was his ultimate victory though, as he himself truthfully said. I'm not suggesting he'll no longer appear in the story, but all indications point towards the 185th chapter signifying a conclusion to his narrative arc. The rest is the hopes of a delusional shipping preference.
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Old 2013-03-17, 19:45   Link #12896
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
There's a fundamental difference between Zen and Kumagawa's 'love' for Medaka: Zenkichi's love is (was) selfless -- submissive, devotional and based on dedication. Kumagawa's meanwhile is selfish -- based on ambition, self-realization, and obtaining what he wants. They can hardly be compared to each other, although one side is healthier for Medaka as a person.
That's not what both me and Zigs were talking about. At all.

It's the fact that we find you to perceive that both of those loves are the de-facto forwarding reason for the two characters(well, Zenkichi's just abandoned that), which is why Zigs said what he said. When you say that Kumagawa's ultimate victory is and always will be Medaka's heart - that's what you are telling us.

And we think it's hilariously wrong.

Mostly because Chapter 185 already proved this wrong, by finally having Kumagawa win.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As far as Kumagawa considering Zen a 'bro' or 'family', however, I really have to wonder how delusional people can be.


Is this guy serious, or is he just trolling?
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Old 2013-03-17, 20:01   Link #12897
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HAHAHA! Damn. That's quite a funny fellow. I want to keep reading of this so called delusions.

Keep it up! Looks like I need more popcorn
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Old 2013-03-17, 21:22   Link #12898
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
...
I'm still waiting for an answer to this:
Quote:
I'll also spell out the causal link for you explicitly. Medaka's principle character weakness, her driving motivation, is her desire not to be alone. When Zenkichi took away her purpose, he stripped away the mechanism Medaka had built up to deal with that. However, at the same time Zenkichi demonstrated his unfailing concern/dedication to Medaka's own well-being, i.e. his devotion to her. Out of gratitude/relief for that devotion, which would protect Medaka from her fundamental fear (loneliness) despite having just lost her all-important independent mechanism for fighting against it, all of Medaka's other emotions in that scene arose.

This is the complete causal link. This is the direct cohesive explanation. All necessary factors are considered, as relevant and portrayed in that scene to Medaka's characterization. Explain to me how any alternative aspect of Medaka's core character (i.e. her loneliness? her ability? her love of battle? her perfect understanding? The overflowing love or rigid discipline she inherited from her parents? etc. Any established characteristic of Medaka at all.) might lead to an alternative interpretation. Please, attempt any non-subjective ("IMO"), non-superficial ("she was physically attracted to him!") explanation at all.
If you want to argue that physical attraction is a significant factor in Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi, then you're going to have to show why it would matter to Medaka's character. Or no? Do you not have anything of substance to offer?

Quote:
It was his ultimate victory though, as he himself truthfully said. I'm not suggesting he'll no longer appear in the story, but all indications point towards the 185th chapter signifying a conclusion to his narrative arc. The rest is the hopes of a delusional shipping preference.
"All indications" lol. It's been a single chapter since then which Kumagawa wasn't even present in. What 'indications' do you have to base your conclusions on that his story isn't continuing? It seems to me that your insistence that a minor, unremarkable, unspectacular event actually represents the resolution of Kumagawa's character arc more greatly resembles the delusions of a shipper closing their ears to what's happening in front of them.
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Old 2013-03-17, 22:15   Link #12899
zigantz22
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

If you want to argue that physical attraction is a significant factor in Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi, then you're going to have to show why it would matter to Medaka's character. Or no? Do you not have anything of substance to offer?
You're intentionally avoiding addressing the accuracy of my response in relation to your initial post. You asked for a defined example of a contributing factor in her feelings for Zenkichi, and I offered one. The physical attraction clearly factored into Medaka's decision to confess to him, as she specifically mentioned, which thus infers that the same applies for her relationship as a whole. That's what the majority of our argument has been focused on, and you appear to be blatantly altering your version of our conversation solely due to the legitimacy of my answer that you're seemingly incapable of recognizing. It's simple, really. The rest of your argument is beside the point.

In regards to the new question you've raised, despite it's obvious divergence from your initial point, I've mentioned the clear lack of depth in their relationship numerous times, and the necessity for maturity. I understand that she's emotionally dependent on him, but I don't view it as an overwhelmingly detrimental force to be reckoned with that has clouded all of their interactions, nor has it appeared that she only admires him due to his presence in her life since before the 140th chapter. She doesn't really use that as the crutch she once did. Regardless, you only every asked for a singular element of her emotions that played a part in her outwardly physical affection towards Zen that was disconnected from her dependency. That, of course, is what I gave you.

Quote:
"All indications" lol. It's been a single chapter since then which Kumagawa wasn't even present in. What 'indications' do you have to base your conclusions that his story isn't continuing? It seems to me that your insistence that a minor, unremarkable, unspectacular event actually represents the resolution of Kumagawa's character arc more greatly resemble the...
Kumagawa wasn't trolling. His words weren't bracketed and he was actually sincere. He blatantly declared that his ultimate victory had finally come. That was the fundamental principle behind Kumagawa's narrative importance and his arc altogether. Those are the indications I refer to, and they're far more substantive and obvious than your reasoning for diminishing Medaka's admittedly flawed love into an emotion that will easily be destroyed due to Zenkichi's sudden absence. I wasn't the one that idiotically claimed that Kumagawa's all-important victory was finally resolved with such an unspectacular and extremely predictable event. Kumagawa and Nisio were. Hence my disappointment. I greatly prefer that over his ultimate victory ludicrously referring to Medaka's reciprocated feelings though, so I can't be too negative on the development.

Quote:
delusions of a shipper closing their ears to what's happening in front of them.
Oh, the irony.

Last edited by zigantz22; 2013-03-17 at 22:25.
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Old 2013-03-18, 00:27   Link #12900
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
You're intentionally avoiding addressing the accuracy of my response in relation to your initial post. You asked for a defined example of a contributing factor in her feelings for Zenkichi, and I offered one. The physical attraction clearly factored into Medaka's decision to confess to him, as she specifically mentioned, which thus infers that the same applies for her relationship as a whole. That's what the majority of our argument has been focused on, and you appear to be blatantly altering your version of our conversation solely due to the legitimacy of my answer that you're seemingly incapable of recognizing. It's simple, really. The rest of your argument is beside the point.
Let me repeat again the requirements for a 'coherent' explanation of Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi: first, the factor in question needs to be demonstrated in the manga yes, but you must also explain why Medaka's character should care about it (i.e. why it's important to Medaka's character arc). The alleged 'physical attraction' you've mentioned is merely a secondary by-product of the original emotion I explained to you, Medaka's gratitude for Zenkichi's devotion. Unless you can demonstrate that physical attraction to Zenkichi would be significant to Medaka's character for some other reason, it doesn't constitute a contradiction to my claim that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi is defined by his devotion to her.

Quote:
In regards to the new question you've raised, despite it's obvious divergence from your initial point, I've mentioned the clear lack of depth in their relationship numerous times, and the necessity for maturity. I understand that she's emotionally dependent on him, but I don't view it as an overwhelmingly detrimental force to be reckoned with that has clouded all of their interactions, nor has it appeared that she only admires him due to his presence in her life since before the 140th chapter. She doesn't really use that as the crutch she once did. Regardless, you only every asked for a singular element of her emotions that played a part in her outwardly physical affection towards Zen that was disconnected from her dependency. That, of course, is what I gave you.
You have been the one going on a diversion. What is the original context of our discussion? Your contention that there was ever some substance to Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi beyond her emotional dependence on him. Now you are saying there is zero substance/depth to their current relationship. Doesn't that simply make my point? If you strip away the sole factor which ever added any remote weight to Medaka's relationship (her appreciation for Zenkichi's devotion to her), then you are left with nothing to justify her continued romantic interest in him. I'll ask again, are you suggesting that the reason Medaka and Zenkichi should be expected to get back together after they complete their maturation away from each other, is because she is physically attracted to him? If no, then you have no in-story justification for your expectation that Nishio will not actually break this relationship, only your preconceived assumptions and prejudices, the very things Nishio has made a habit of destroying.

Do you now not see what an ass you have been making of yourself? "Boohoo, I can't handle the suggestion that Medaka and Zenkichi won't end up together. I'm going to throw up an argument based on my instinctual disagreement with such a theory, despite having zero logical backing for my objection. All I have to offer are subjective 'observations' and a groundless confidence that Nishio won't upset my expectations." What a joke, try actually thinking next time before getting on your self-righteous soapbox.

Quote:
Kumagawa wasn't trolling. His words weren't bracketed and he was actually sincere. He blatantly declared that his ultimate victory had finally come. That was the fundamental principle behind Kumagawa's narrative importance and his arc altogether. Those are the indications I refer to, and they're far more substantive and obvious than your reasoning for diminishing Medaka's admittedly flawed love into an emotion that will easily be destroyed due to Zenkichi's sudden absence. I wasn't the one that idiotically claimed that Kumagawa's all-important victory was finally resolved with such an unspectacular and extremely predictable event. Kumagawa and Nisio were. Hence my disappointment. I greatly prefer that over his ultimate victory ludicrously referring to Medaka's reciprocated feelings though, so I can't be too negative on the development.
Of course Kumagawa wasn't trolling. Medaka's return represents a genuine victory for him both because it was something he bet on and something he desired. Do you think he's going to be seriously satisfied now however with just that single, insubstantial victory? Is there any interpretation you can apply where this one victory significantly changes Kumagawa's character? Because y'know, that's the actual point of character development, isn't it? Not just to have a 'symbolic' moment of a character changing somehow, but to actually show that change.

Kumagawa's character will not change until he actually achieves his ultimate victory. Until his character finishes changing, Kumagawa will not have finished his story. Your (again) naive and superficial interpretations of what Nishio's supposed intentions are is the only basis you have for calling Kumagawa's story over. When in fact, any cursory analytical overview of Kumagawa's character development would clearly tell you that his story is not finished. This is something even you have already understood instinctively. What I am telling you is that Nishio's adherence to proper literary writing is what is going to win out, not your preconceptions of what Nishio supposedly 'meant' in the story.
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