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Old 2013-03-15, 23:14   Link #3361
orangejuicetang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post


Ahhh...! Next Spring, Saki Zenkoku-hen will be airing! It's either next month or April 2014. Still good news!
...I've forgotten how giant some of the chests some of the characters in the Saki main manga had, lol
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Old 2013-03-16, 15:34   Link #3362
teja208
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After some thinking, in a way, the claim that we didn’t consider Shizu as a monster because we never get to know detail about her match and ability doesn’t hold much water. Why is that? Because a lot of foreshadowings about other monsters doesn’t really involve revealing their ability at all. I will go over the lists of all the confirmed monsters and the foreshadowings given to them before their match. Correct me if I’m wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serperior View Post

Actually, here's a pretty good powerlevel list from /a/:

Spoiler:
Miyanaga Saki
We already know from the beginning that she always scores with +-0 which is more difficult than getting a yakuman.

Amae Koromo
Courtesy to Fujita-pro’s defeat, Fujita also mentioned her name along with Teru and Jindai as those blessed by the tiles.

Jindai Komaki
Again, mentioned by Fujita, and we saw her in the Saki ep. 25 preview.

Miyanaga Teru
Saki’s sister duh… She’s also the two years running champ so expecting something less than a monster is almost an insult to her title.

Oohoshi Awai
Saki ep. 20 + ep. 25 preview + space background + her info in the box of Saki DVD + FunaQ mentioned her name along with Saki as the dangerous first year.

Note: We know about these characters and they were hype up to be monsters from way before we even know Achiga.

And then we have Takakamo Shizuno.

Why some do not consider her as a potential monster/monster slayer until now? Following is what I believe are the reasons and why it doesn't really make much sense.

1. Until chapter 20, she never go all "Raping and Destroying Dreams" on other players.

It doesn't make sense because, she's a defensive player, and her powers mostly work on those with lesbian hex.

2. She isn't the team's ace. From chapter 1 of Achiga-hen, when Ako introduced Kuro to Nodoka, she said Kuro was their club's ace and that she and Shizu are number 2 and 3.

This is funny because monsters and pseudo monsters are usually treated as the team's ace OR their secret weapon. Shizu, on the other hand, wasn't seen that way until this very final chapter. In a sense, you could consider her situation to be similar to that of Toyone as in she's probably hiding her actual ability until the quarter finals.

3. No one, and I mean NO ONE, ever refered to her as "Blessed by the Tiles" or "A Dangerous 1st Year" likely due to the first two reasons above. Actually, I began to think that people may start taking Shizu's potential as a monster more seriously if only we had a slight glimpse of her ability in Saki ending preview which is impossible, because Achiga-hen wasn't even exist yet.

4. Other reasons may involve what most people pointed out like pacing issues which can be seen as rush, thus, no time to elaborate on every single match and to add more foreshadowing which could be done without having to catch up with the anime. I mean, the only serious foreshadowing regarding Shizu's power happened in chapter 17 when Koromo warned Saki about her. I think it won’t hurt for Ritz to add some more hints like having other member of Achiga discussing about Shizu’s potential or her role as the team trump card against monster players which explain why she was placed in the captain position. Something like that early in the manga would help a lot.

tl;dr Most monsters foreshadowing doesn’t involve revealing their match in detail or having their abilities explained, so using this as a base on Shizu’s ability lack of buildup isn’t valid. Shizu was introduced late in the franchise (her "Ruler of the Mt."ability never get a chance to appear in Saki ep. 25 ending preview) combine with Achiga-hen pacing issues resulting in insufficient amount of foreshadowing that was given to her compared to other monster players. While there wasn’t enough evidence to justify her status as monster or monster slayer early in the series we shouldn’t written her off as no hex or worse: weaker than bag of chips.

Last edited by teja208; 2013-03-16 at 16:18.
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Old 2013-03-16, 16:13   Link #3363
Proto
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As you mentioned we didnt even know that ppl lik Toyone, Sae or Kasumi were abilty users till the moment they sat on the table and their abiltiies were explicitly shown to us . Morever, it is heavily hinted that Shizu's abiltiy hadn't fully matured till the semi finals match (as implied by Koromo's reference that back during the match she saw a spark of what was to come).
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Old 2013-03-16, 16:25   Link #3364
teja208
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Yeah, it made me feel sorry for her that her ability wasn't previewed in the end of season 1. Because it never happen, people never take her seriously.
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Old 2013-03-16, 17:18   Link #3365
Requiem-x
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Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
Yeah, it made me feel sorry for her that her ability wasn't previewed in the end of season 1. Because it never happen, people never take her seriously.
I always took her seriously since she went full shounen protag, specially since, shortly afterwards I saw Saki being scared to death of a normal girl who is simply overly cautious and thinks things through when playing with her own style. Sure, Shizu turned out to be not so normal (though she sure has shounen levels of willpower and confidence), but she should still give the demon a run for her money. If Awai isn't too busy lusting for revenge.
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Old 2013-03-16, 17:31   Link #3366
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
After some thinking, in a way, the claim that we didn’t consider Shizu as a monster because we never get to know detail about her match and ability doesn’t hold much water. Why is that? Because a lot of foreshadowings about other monsters doesn’t really involve revealing their ability at all. I will go over the lists of all the confirmed monsters and the foreshadowings given to them before their match. Correct me if I’m wrong



Miyanaga Saki
We already know from the beginning that she always scores with +-0 which is more difficult than getting a yakuman.

Amae Koromo
Courtesy to Fujita-pro’s defeat, Fujita also mentioned her name along with Teru and Jindai as those blessed by the tiles.

Jindai Komaki
Again, mentioned by Fujita, and we saw her in the Saki ep. 25 preview.

Miyanaga Teru
Saki’s sister duh… She’s also the two years running champ so expecting something less than a monster is almost an insult to her title.

Oohoshi Awai
Saki ep. 20 + ep. 25 preview + space background + her info in the box of Saki DVD + FunaQ mentioned her name along with Saki as the dangerous first year.

Note: We know about these characters and they were hype up to be monsters from way before we even know Achiga.

And then we have Takakamo Shizuno.

Why some do not consider her as a potential monster/monster slayer until now? Following is what I believe are the reasons and why it doesn't really make much sense.

1. Until chapter 20, she never go all "Raping and Destroying Dreams" on other players.

It doesn't make sense because, she's a defensive player, and her powers mostly work on those with lesbian hex.

2. She isn't the team's ace. From chapter 1 of Achiga-hen, when Ako introduced Kuro to Nodoka, she said Kuro was their club's ace and that she and Shizu are number 2 and 3.

This is funny because monsters and pseudo monsters are usually treated as the team's ace OR their secret weapon. Shizu, on the other hand, wasn't seen that way until this very final chapter. In a sense, you could consider her situation to be similar to that of Toyone as in she's probably hiding her actual ability until the quarter finals.

3. No one, and I mean NO ONE, ever refered to her as "Blessed by the Tiles" or "A Dangerous 1st Year" likely due to the first two reasons above. Actually, I began to think that people may start taking Shizu's potential as a monster more seriously if only we had a slight glimpse of her ability in Saki ending preview which is impossible, because Achiga-hen wasn't even exist yet.

4. Other reasons may involve what most people pointed out like pacing issues which can be seen as rush, thus, no time to elaborate on every single match and to add more foreshadowing which could be done without having to catch up with the anime. I mean, the only serious foreshadowing regarding Shizu's power happened in chapter 17 when Koromo warned Saki about her. I think it won’t hurt for Ritz to add some more hints like having other member of Achiga discussing about Shizu’s potential or her role as the team trump card against monster players which explain why she was placed in the captain position. Something like that early in the manga would help a lot.

tl;dr Most monsters foreshadowing doesn’t involve revealing their match in detail or having their abilities explained, so using this as a base on Shizu’s ability lack of buildup isn’t valid. Shizu was introduced late in the franchise (her "Ruler of the Mt."ability never get a chance to appear in Saki ep. 25 ending preview) combine with Achiga-hen pacing issues resulting in insufficient amount of foreshadowing that was given to her compared to other monster players. While there wasn’t enough evidence to justify her status as monster or monster slayer early in the series we shouldn’t written her off as no hex or worse: weaker than bag of chips.

That's kind of a faulty argument. Fundamentally, first of all, I disagree that Shizuno has been established as a defensive player. The example taken from the Quarterfinals captain match is very weak because regardless of her other performance, Shizu did play into a freakin' haneman which is gigantic for a defensive player.

Outside of occult sensing abilities, mahjong defense is about logic (in fact, mahjong defense is even the most significant part of the digital style, which is based purely on logic). Meanwhile Harue has flat out said for us that Shizuno's playstyle tends to be intuitive, which matches with the overall mystic/ascetic monk idea of Shizuno "becoming one with the mountain".

The plain fact is that Shizuno's ability is something new, which she developed in response to playing opponents like Koromo or Awai who gave her a feeling that mahjong was like climbing mountains.

In terms of how Shizu's power actually operates, it in fact seems more like flow control than a purely defensive ability. Basically, yes, Shizuno's 'mountain control' disrupts the strength of other player's abilities, but it also biases/manipulates the flow to be advantageous towards her. If it was pure defense/disruption then Shizu's ability would have straight up prevented Himeko's yakuman or Awai's last comeback tsumo, instead of only somewhat weakening/making it harder for them. Meanwhile, Shizuno's disruption ability could not have blocked Ryuuka from getting a win with her Toki fairy completely unless it also had an offensive component which can guarantee Shizu's victory.

Shizuno's ability is basically about manipulating/navigating the overall flow/mahjong table like the way that someone who is one with nature would navigate a mountain.

As an intuitive player, without this ability, Shizu's skill as a mahjong player is still mediocre/shit. Meanwhile, the overpoweredness of Shizu's ability is what makes it plot armour. In terms of narrative consistency, the problem is not so much that we didn't know about Shizu's ability (since it's a new ability) but rather that hyped members from other schools had to become crappy players in order to lose to it (Awai, Ryuuka, etc.).
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:15   Link #3367
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So i finally read the chapter and its not nearly as bad as some made it out to be. I think maybe because it was Shizu that thats why they were complaining so much. I'm not sure i like the final's stage but i'm sure i might like it eventually. Overall i thought it was pretty good but i kinda wanted to see more of the aftermatch reactions with the teams.
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:22   Link #3368
MarkS00N
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Actually I am surprise that people don't go insane when Usuzan implied to be scarier than Rinkai...

The argument that Achiga suck because they kill Shiraitodai hyped is rather nullified when they don't mind Rinkai hyped 'killed' by Usuzan...

Then again, probably it simply because they don't see it because many go 'angry' when Jindai defeated by Himematsu...
I bet you, if Achiga never shown, people will root for Shizu (She is anti-Saki afterall)...

Anyway, 2014...
HERE I COME!!!
Zenkoku-Hen...

HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE...
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:41   Link #3369
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
Actually I am surprise that people don't go insane when Usuzan implied to be scarier than Rinkai...

The argument that Achiga suck because they kill Shiraitodai hyped is rather nullified when they don't mind Rinkai hyped 'killed' by Usuzan...

Then again, probably it simply because they don't see it because many go 'angry' when Jindai defeated by Himematsu...
I bet you, if Achiga never shown, people will root for Shizu (She is anti-Saki afterall)...

Anyway, 2014...
HERE I COME!!!
Zenkoku-Hen...

HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE...
Yes, I am still pissed that Miyamori and especially Eisui lost to Himematsu as well. I'm looking forward to Himematsu being stomped in the semifinals.
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Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
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Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:47   Link #3370
teja208
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"Ritz: The Hype Killer" sounds like a good nickname to me.
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Old 2013-03-16, 21:14   Link #3371
MarkS00N
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"Ritz: The Hype Killer" sounds like a good nickname to me.
Nah, "Ritz: The Hype Slayer" sounds better...
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Old 2013-03-16, 21:22   Link #3372
Daniel E.
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Folks, please remember that posting links to scanlation sites is not allowed here. It does not matter if the title in question is licensed or not and it does not matter if you are simply linking to their own forums.

Posting links or info about scanlation sites is not allowed here.
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Old 2013-03-17, 01:08   Link #3373
Marina2
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
That's kind of a faulty argument. Fundamentally, first of all, I disagree that Shizuno has been established as a defensive player. The example taken from the Quarterfinals captain match is very weak because regardless of her other performance, Shizu did play into a freakin' haneman which is gigantic for a defensive player.
So, you are saying that just dealing into someone hand for one time ,which is normal thing happened in every Mahjong game even for skilled player, make her not defensive player? Everyone can make a mistake. Please look at the overall result not just a single hand. The score board tell you that Shizu is good at defense and that's not because she's being ignored as being ignored doesn't mean you can't deal into someone hand by yourself. Actually, have you read my long post a few page ago? I would like to see you trying to argue with it. (no one did it so far)
[quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As an intuitive player, without this ability, Shizu's skill as a mahjong player is still mediocre/shit. Meanwhile, the overpoweredness of Shizu's ability is what makes it plot armour. In terms of narrative consistency, the problem is not so much that we didn't know about Shizu's ability (since it's a new ability) but rather that hyped members from other schools had to become crappy players in order to lose to it (Awai, Ryuuka, etc.).
You seems to say this out of your prejudice toward Shizu rather then with reason. It might hurt a lot to see Awai and Ryuuka lost to Shizu ,eh?

Shizu is not overpowered. You said it yourself that Shizu skill as a mahjong player is not that good. It is because the situation is in her favor and she can fully use her ability to win. You can say that other players are in bad luck to play with Shizu. Also, we are showed that Shizu can use some tactical play.

In the end, You have to accept Ritz storytelling style if you want to continue reading this series without RAGE. Eveything can happen in Saki if Ritz want it to happen. If Ritz want Saki to be raped by upgraded Kyouko in Semi-final, it will also happen.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yes, I am still pissed that Miyamori and especially Eisui lost to Himematsu as well. I'm looking forward to Himematsu being stomped in the semifinals.
Oh, I thought we are all know that Kiyosumi and Himematsu will go to final. There is no way Saki will let danger enemies like Rinkai and Uzuzan go to final with them. Unless, Saki will get raped by someone and Kiyosumi need to go to final in the second place.
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Old 2013-03-17, 02:32   Link #3374
Sol Falling
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So, you are saying that just dealing into someone hand for one time ,which is normal thing happened in every Mahjong game even for skilled player, make her not defensive player? Everyone can make a mistake. Please look at the overall result not just a single hand. The score board tell you that Shizu is good at defense and that's not because she's being ignored as being ignored doesn't mean you can't deal into someone hand by yourself. Actually, have you read my long post a few page ago? I would like to see you trying to argue with it. (no one did it so far)
There's no reason why Shizu's score prior to the last round in the Quarterfinals had to be the result of defensive play. It could just as easily have happened that Shizu was playing offensively and got even more points previously, but didn't manage to keep them because her defense sucks.

An actual defensive player, in second place in the second to last hand of the Captains match in the Quarterfinals which determines whether they will advance to the Semis, would take extra care not to be hit by another player. They already have their second place, guaranteeing their advancement, so the best strategy would be just to fold or go for safe quick hands. Being hit with a haneman in South 3 of a Captain's match in the nationals is equal to poor defensive play. There is very little excuse if you are consciously playing defensively.
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Old 2013-03-17, 03:19   Link #3375
Proto
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Quote:
An actual defensive player, in second place in the second to last hand of the Captains match in the Quarterfinals which determines whether they will advance to the Semis, would take extra care not to be hit by another player. They already have their second place, guaranteeing their advancement, so the best strategy would be just to fold or go for safe quick hands. Being hit with a haneman in South 3 of a Captain's match in the nationals is equal to poor defensive play. There is very little excuse if you are consciously playing defensively.
Have you played mahjong yourself? There's a lot of hidden information in mahjong where things like suji and the like can only take you so far. Sure, if you fold and play defensively odds are that you won't deal into other's ppls hands but, a) odds does not mean certainity, there's a moment where you will run out of safe tiles and you just have to take a guess-shot. And b, even if you go for fast quick hands (which is what she would have to do since her lead was really narrow) it's not like it's guaranteed that you will get them. Sometimes the draws just suck and you got to deal with it.
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Old 2013-03-17, 03:23   Link #3376
Marina2
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
There's no reason why Shizu's score prior to the last round in the Quarterfinals had to be the result of defensive play. It could just as easily have happened that Shizu was playing offensively and got even more points previously, but didn't manage to keep them because her defense sucks.

An actual defensive player, in second place in the second to last hand of the Captains match in the Quarterfinals which determines whether they will advance to the Semis, would take extra care not to be hit by another player. They already have their second place, guaranteeing their advancement, so the best strategy would be just to fold or go for safe quick hands. Being hit with a haneman in South 3 of a Captain's match in the nationals is equal to poor defensive play. There is very little excuse if you are consciously playing defensively.
Hmm, ok, I will take that as a fair argument.
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Old 2013-03-17, 03:27   Link #3377
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...w-saki-spinoff

Is it true?
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Old 2013-03-17, 03:59   Link #3378
Sol Falling
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Have you played mahjong yourself? There's a lot of hidden information in mahjong where things like suji and the like can only take you so far. Sure, if you fold and play defensively odds are that you won't deal into other's ppls hands but, a) odds does not mean certainity, there's a moment where you will run out of safe tiles and you just have to take a guess-shot. And b, even if you go for fast quick hands (which is what she would have to do since her lead was really narrow) it's not like it's guaranteed that you will get them. Sometimes the draws just suck and you got to deal with it.
Certainly I play mahjong myself, I mentioned my tenhou ID in a bit of a non-sequitur not too long ago. Dumping safe tiles is not really relevant in Shizu's specific case because the opponent who won off her was in damaten. Defending against damaten is really more about detecting when your opponents' reach tenpai and estimating the value of their hands once they have it. Then, certainly, you proceed to play safe tiles, but the nature of furiten in riichi mahjong actually means that safe tiles tend to become more available the longer you spend in betaori, and the majority of wins against opponents in betaori tends to be within the first two rounds of tenpai, against opponents who either decide to push or have no safe tiles. Unless there are multiple players pushing/attacking, it is quite extraordinarily unlucky to be hit by a player you are against in full betaori. Meanwhile, if you are under attack by multiple players and are completely out of safe tiles, that's when you make a bet on estimating your opponents' hand values (open hands are good) and try to play into a cheaper player's hand.

As far as going for quick fast hands, you are never 'forced' to do so unless you are flat out gambling (i.e. betting on luck). Only certain hand shapes are suitable for going after quick wins, if you're in a defensive position the rest of the time you should betaori. Regardless of the narrowness of your lead, if you have a poor starting hand it is pure recklessness to try to force a winning hand out of it.
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Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-17 at 04:12.
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Old 2013-03-17, 10:07   Link #3379
momonae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
It seems it's true. What is written in the picture matches the article.
Though that picture is the only proof I could get on the internet.
It seems the main series restarts in the same issue (April 5th).
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Old 2013-03-17, 18:16   Link #3380
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There are plenty of cans of worms being opened in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
After some thinking, in a way, the claim that we didnít consider Shizu as a monster because we never get to know detail about her match and ability doesnít hold much water. Why is that? Because a lot of foreshadowings about other monsters doesnít really involve revealing their ability at all. I will go over the lists of all the confirmed monsters and the foreshadowings given to them before their match. Correct me if Iím wrong
Just wanted to comment on this - there's a significant difference between a few forewords given for an opposing player and the girl that we've been following for pretty much 20 chapters, give or take.

Think of it in terms of an RPG boss. If the heroes goes to slay a dangerous dragon, and it is revealed that the dragon can animate undead, that's not something that we really would bat a single eyelash about. It's just a boss with X and Y ability. However, if that dragon was a main character, and we've been following its story for the equivalent of 5 volumes of manga without knowing that he has a single ability, and suddenly, he reveals that he knows necromancy with no prior explanation or reason, that is what we call the author pulling something out of their butt.

Koromo, Jindai, and Teru's abilities were never foreshadowed, certainly, but before they entered the playing field, we only knew them by the few snippets of personality and the few comments that we were given. Shizu? 500+ pages written from the perspective of Achiga. I would certainly hope that she would be held to a different bar now than Koromo or Teru when they were first introduced as players.

Quote:
This is funny because monsters and pseudo monsters are usually treated as the team's ace OR their secret weapon. Shizu, on the other hand, wasn't seen that way until this very final chapter. In a sense, you could consider her situation to be similar to that of Toyone as in she's probably hiding her actual ability until the quarter finals.
We've been reading the thoughts and perspectives of the Achiga players for literally 20 chapters now, each with at least 60 pages. If Achiga is actually hiding Shizu's abilities, we would have expected to know much more than nothing about it now. On the other hand, the fact that Miyamori was hiding Toyone's abilities was introduced pretty much the moment that Toyone came into being as a major character.
There's about 500 pages of difference between the two situations, just as there's a world of difference between the introduction of the antagonist monsters and the suddenly developing power of a protagonist that we've been following for an entire manga.

Quote:
No one, and I mean NO ONE, ever refered to her as "Blessed by the Tiles" or "A Dangerous 1st Year" likely due to the first two reasons above. Actually, I began to think that people may start taking Shizu's potential as a monster more seriously if only we had a slight glimpse of her ability in Saki ending preview which is impossible, because Achiga-hen wasn't even exist yet.
And there lies the crux of the problem. Twenty chapters of the manga, and the only clues we have about Achiga is that they are a good team, but nowhere near the monster levels that some (not all!) of the national aces exhibits. We have entire segments that enforced this belief, in fact; Achiga losing to a number of the Nagano players in the anime was a prime indication of their strength (in fact, Shizu, if I recall correctly, lost to Kana). Pros that should know better (going by some defenses of Harue's omniperception) have skimmed over this "monstrous ability", with Kokaji actually implying at one point that only the older students in Achiga has abilities.

Perhaps Kokaji was wrong (in a series when a pro has never really been wrong in an objective analysis before), and Achiga losing to the Nagano teams can be retroactively explained away, etc. It's certainly possible, but this is pretty much what an author saving throw is defined as - Achiga was portrayed as a underdog for most of the manga, and suddenly, when the author realized that they will actually be appearing in the main manga and thus must be main threats instead of "an underdog team", they suddenly are aces in a can.

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Other reasons may involve what most people pointed out like pacing issues which can be seen as rush, thus, no time to elaborate on every single match and to add more foreshadowing which could be done without having to catch up with the anime. I mean, the only serious foreshadowing regarding Shizu's power happened in chapter 17 when Koromo warned Saki about her. I think it wonít hurt for Ritz to add some more hints like having other member of Achiga discussing about Shizuís potential or her role as the team trump card against monster players which explain why she was placed in the captain position. Something like that early in the manga would help a lot.
And pacing is one of the main problems of Achiga, in my opinion - somewhere alongside the "sparkle power mahjong," "Ryuuka is now Toki," and the fact that most of the Achiga characters has less personality than some of the supporting characters of the main manga. When I finished reading the semifinals arc of Saki, I actually felt as if I know and cared about the dreams of these characters - as if they are actually human with motivations, dreams, and a personality. Not a single team in Achiga-hen (not even Senriyama after spending four chapters crafting Toki's character) was able to even inspire a fraction of that feeling.

(And in case if anyone extrapolates the 'sparkle power mahjong' to the main manga - we're currently in an arc with a huge battle of wits between the two characters. Even the power-filled captains match of the semifinals had a ton of characterization behind it. Most of Achiga doesn't even show us the player's starting hands, much less anything more than "it's my turn to sparkle" and "my ability trumps yours, I have flaming wheels behind my back!")


I apologize if this sounds somewhat more forceful than I had intended.

Last edited by Felyndiira; 2013-03-17 at 18:41.
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