AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-16, 08:03   Link #701
hyperborealis
Lost at Sea
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
On a different note (or maybe it is related), this episode brought back the theme of being honest and not substituting one thing for another.
This probably applies to the romance vs karuta aspect of the show, as well, though I'll probably not say much more, in case another war starts up .
Not to start a war, but I've been thinking that Suetsugu embraces the substitution of things for each other. We have characters for whom karuta is a substitution for love (Taichi, Sumire), and those for whom love is a substitution for karuta. (Chihaya, Shinobu). There is an idea that karuta is a model for life--all the values that are important in the real world can be found here, so playing karuta is a good preparation for real life, is itself a good life. But ultimately the show thinks life is a model for karuta, that karuta itself is a be-all and end-all of existence. It is its own justification.

Mioka illustrates this idea perfectly: we start out thinking they play karuta to improve their quiz show skills (which in turn they play in order to hone their academic skills), but it turns out they too do the quiz show for the sake of karuta. They too love karuta.

So, while Arata's honesty and refusal-to-run-away is honorable and admirable, I think Shinobu rather expressed the author's own opinion, when she tells Arata to stop being so "cool" and to bow his head already and pretend submission and humility in order to be able to play the next day. Arata's real responsibility is to karuta. That justifies everything. Arata's deception, Suoh's bad-boy behavior--it's all for the sake of karuta.

It's amusing: Taichi is trying to become Arata, a person who doesn't run away, but Arata has to learn to stop being so cool, and run away when it's for the sake of karuta.
__________________
.

A Blossoming Flower in the Snowy Winter
hyperborealis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 08:06   Link #702
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes. She lost against the midget in the prefecturals. Because she spent most of the match practicing instead of trying to win. She did exactly what you're claiming she's innocent of.
This was what I was thinking about too.

That being said I thought about this some more and I think Taichi could be over-reacting a bit about what it would do to Chihaya if she saw Arata (not that I think she should be looking to run off to find him when they have their matches to think of).

I do agree with the point that both Arata and Shinobu are a sense of inspiration for Chihaya. Thinking of them as a goal can make her stronger, at the same time though when she thinks of this her mind can go off the team game (which did happen in the game you mentioned).

However I think "stress" is the main reason Taichi reacted like that. Again I stand by my point that Taichi has never tried to keep Arata away from Chihaya.

However Arata does mess with Taichi's psyche, so in the end I think his reaction was his own worry, that it's not Chihaya that needs to concentrate but Taichi (we even see this in what Taichi thinks about afterwards). It's not just jealousy but an inferiority complex when it comes to Arata, so ultimately that is what Taichi needs to learn to overcome.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 08:10   Link #703
Blaat
AS member for 10 years
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That said, Taichi's reaction was probably excessive. I think maybe the stress is getting to him. Like when he forbade the male members to start sentences with "but".
It's definitely stress but also jealously, which is feeding his stress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I'd like to see a match where Chihaya loses yet the team wins.
Same here in fact I'm taking it to the next level by rooting for Chihaya's opponents. I do think there is something wrong when you're rooting against the main character in a sport anime.
__________________
Blaat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 08:57   Link #704
Cytrus
Unchangingly Hopeless
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Didn't Kana just get unlucky here? For a defensive player, getting their opponent's cards read several times in a row mid-game could make for a difficult endgame etc. There wasn't any indication she was inferior to her opponent in overall ability.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with this ultimately inconsequential loss if it nets Kana a match-deciding win somewhere in the near future :3.
Cytrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 08:58   Link #705
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
This was what I was thinking about too.

That being said I thought about this some more and I think Taichi could be over-reacting a bit about what it would do to Chihaya if she saw Arata
That's not the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is Chihaya going after Arata and not finding him. I don't know if she could get him out of her mind then.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 12:35   Link #706
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
I agree Taichi is being plain jealous right now. I could give him the benefit of the doubt the first time, but Chihaya has already proven two episodes ago that Arata's presence wouldn't impact her performance negatively. Quite the opposite, in fact. She stated back then that she wants to show off in front of him and proceeded to display more concentration than ever. His presence only increases her motivation to win.

Taichi is actually the one being distracted by Arata, and he's using Chihaya as an excuse to run away from that issue.
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:15   Link #707
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Taichi is actually the one being distracted by Arata, and he's using Chihaya as an excuse to run away from that issue.
But that is not plain jealousy at all but something more.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 15:31   Link #708
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
"Projection" is the term you're looking for, I believe.
__________________
SeijiSensei is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 17:36   Link #709
Quadratic
SIBYL salesman
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Not to start a war, but I've been thinking that Suetsugu embraces the substitution of things for each other. We have characters for whom karuta is a substitution for love (Taichi, Sumire), and those for whom love is a substitution for karuta. (Chihaya, Shinobu). There is an idea that karuta is a model for life--all the values that are important in the real world can be found here, so playing karuta is a good preparation for real life, is itself a good life. But ultimately the show thinks life is a model for karuta, that karuta itself is a be-all and end-all of existence. It is its own justification.

Mioka illustrates this idea perfectly: we start out thinking they play karuta to improve their quiz show skills (which in turn they play in order to hone their academic skills), but it turns out they too do the quiz show for the sake of karuta. They too love karuta.
We might be arguing over words here, but I see karuta (and quiz show etc) as being able to augment each other, rather than substitution, because ultimately you have to fight in the respective "game" in order to win, seek revenge etc.
Using Taichi as an example, Taichi's battle for Chihaya's heart is such a roundabout way (karuta) that, in the end, it won't get her to be aware of his feelings, especially considering how oblivious she is.
Ultimately, he will have to confess to her in a direct manner, but karuta is the means that will give him the courage to do so.
Quadratic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 23:35   Link #710
hyperborealis
Lost at Sea
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
We might be arguing over words here, but I see karuta (and quiz show etc) as being able to augment each other, rather than substitution, because ultimately you have to fight in the respective "game" in order to win, seek revenge etc.
Using Taichi as an example, Taichi's battle for Chihaya's heart is such a roundabout way (karuta) that, in the end, it won't get her to be aware of his feelings, especially considering how oblivious she is.
Ultimately, he will have to confess to her in a direct manner, but karuta is the means that will give him the courage to do so.
I'm sure you are right. But what good would Taichi's confession be, if Chihaya cannot respond to it in the same spirit that Taichi offers it? Chihaya already has a passion and aspiration and community all formed within karuta. I don't think she is oblivious to Taichi's feelings as she is conversant in a different mode of emotional expression. Chihaya and Taichi speak different languages, he that of romantic love and she that of karuta. I don't think Taichi lacks courage to confess his feelings; I think he just realizes his confession would fall on uncomprehending ears.

Substitution is a form of translation, but translation preserves the essential differences between languages that divide Chihaya from Taichi. To use your terms, they both need to be playing the same game for them to overcome their current impasse. At this point they are not, and I doubt there is anything Taichi can do to get her to do so.
__________________
.

A Blossoming Flower in the Snowy Winter

Last edited by hyperborealis; 2013-03-17 at 09:13.
hyperborealis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 23:41   Link #711
Kazu-kun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Substitution is a form of translation, but translation preserves the essential differences between languages that divide Chihaya from Taichi. To use your terms, they both need to be playing the same game for them to overcome their current impasse.

That's bound to change. They're going to step into each other "territory" at some point down the line. Arata too. At some point he will become a bit like Taichi is now, I think.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic39230_3.gif
Kazu-kun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 08:54   Link #712
Crontica
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
This flamewar is marvelous, i swear it's getting just as bad as the Ume discussions, just how low will your reputation really go Taichi?
__________________
Crontica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 09:10   Link #713
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
This flamewar is marvelous, i swear it's getting just as bad as the Ume discussions, just how low will your reputation really go Taichi?
Yes I know you hate Taichi but there is no flame war.

We are just having a discussion. Disagreeing with each other is not the same as a flame war. And there is nothing "bad" about this thread since everyone has presented their opinion politely and maturely.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 09:28   Link #714
Crontica
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Yes I know you hate Taichi but there is no flame war.

We are just having a discussion. Disagreeing with each other is not the same as a flame war. And there is nothing "bad" about this thread since everyone has presented their opinion politely and maturely.
This "discussion" has dragged out since what season 1? I'd agree if it was discussed maybe 5 times over the course of the season but how many times has Taichi been pegged down with this particular type of discussion? Dear god it's almost overshadowing the rest of the cast. Not that there's much to discuss about since there hasn't been a breather episode as of late but wow.
__________________
Crontica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 09:43   Link #715
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
This "discussion" has dragged out since what season 1? I'd agree if it was discussed maybe 5 times over the course of the season but how many times has Taichi been pegged down with this particular type of discussion? Dear god it's almost overshadowing the rest of the cast. Not that there's much to discuss about since there hasn't been a breather episode as of late but wow.
You misunderstand: the reason Taichi is talked about a lot is because he along with Chihaya are the main characters (and she also gets a lot of discussion)

The discussion is also not whether Taichi is a good or bad character (although for some people it might be like that) but we do discuss Taichi because he is a complex character with many layers. Only a well written character creates discussion.

Although I think all the characters are great.

Edit: Also there is a major difference between people who see what Taichi did as another excuse to hate his character (maybe a couple posters) to those who dislike what he did in this episode but see it as a character flaw (a good thing in writing) which is what I saw from most posters.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 11:01   Link #716
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
But that is not plain jealousy at all but something more.
It is. What is distracting him is the thought of Chihaya and Arata meeting. He doesn't want to have to face that situation yet, and he's fooling himself into thinking preventing them from meeting is in Chihaya and the team's best interest. It all stems from his insecurity, which fuels his jealousy. I agree his feelings toward Arata are very complex, but right now, I do think he is acting mainly on jealousy.
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 11:25   Link #717
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
It is. What is distracting him is the thought of Chihaya and Arata meeting. He doesn't want to have to face that situation yet, and he's fooling himself into thinking preventing them from meeting is in Chihaya and the team's best interest. It all stems from his insecurity, which fuels his jealousy. I agree his feelings toward Arata are very complex, but right now, I do think he is acting mainly on jealousy.
There's probably jealousy, but I think the reason he reacted so harshly (instead of calmly telling Chihaya to keep her head on the game right in front of her for once) is that he was feeling "not another damn thing, goddammit!"

If Arata comes, he'll deal with it, but this is really no time to go chasing after him.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 11:48   Link #718
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
It is. What is distracting him is the thought of Chihaya and Arata meeting. He doesn't want to have to face that situation yet, and he's fooling himself into thinking preventing them from meeting is in Chihaya and the team's best interest. It all stems from his insecurity, which fuels his jealousy. I agree his feelings toward Arata are very complex, but right now, I do think he is acting mainly on jealousy.
I don't though, well I think jealously is part of Taichi's feelings towards Arata but I think it is way more complicated than that and Taichi snapping at Chihaya is also for more complicated reasons. The thought of Arata being there makes him nervous.

Like I said before Taichi has actually never tried to keep Chihaya away from Arata. It's also not like Taichi didn't realize Arata was going to be at Omi Jingu, the only difference is he thought Arata would not show up till the individual match and he did not mentally prepare himself for him showing up now. There is no way that Taichi thought I can keep Chihaya from seeing Arata on this trip. That is not why he is reacting like this.



Also you are missing something crucial these are Taichi's inner thoughts

Ep 9: We don't have time to think about Arata but what if he really is here, what if Arata comes to watch us?

Stop it Queen and Arata those words will distract Chihaya, I need her to focus on the team match, so Arata is here...

Chihaya may get distracted by Arata but she does draw strength and inspiration from him. On the other hand Arata brings out a major inferiority complex out of Taichi (it is not just in terms of romance but also in terms of karuta).

Taichi wants to show off to Arata just as much as Chihaya. He wants approval from Arata but as Arata is so above him (in Taichi's eyes) it makes him nervous and feel inferior that he will never live up to Arata's expectations (the romance with Chihaya is just an added complexity).

Arata doesn't of course think like this at all about Taichi. I think Arata would love to play a great game with both Taichi and Chihaya, to be on a team with them again.

There was an episode in season 1 where Arata said to Taichi I thought you would be Team A by now. This hurt Taichi but Arata didn't mean it in that way. Arata actually sees Taichi as an admirable player who can reach Team A. I don't think Arata would have said those words to a player that he didn't believe in.

So yeah TLDR I don't see it as simple jealousy (although that is a part of it) but the fact that it's Taichi who is getting distracted by Arata, not Chihaya.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 13:02   Link #719
Grifis
Eternal Dreamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
So, while Arata's honesty and refusal-to-run-away is honorable and admirable, I think Shinobu rather expressed the author's own opinion, when she tells Arata to stop being so "cool" and to bow his head already and pretend submission and humility in order to be able to play the next day. Arata's real responsibility is to karuta. That justifies everything. Arata's deception, Suoh's bad-boy behavior--it's all for the sake of karuta.

It's amusing: Taichi is trying to become Arata, a person who doesn't run away, but Arata has to learn to stop being so cool, and run away when it's for the sake of karuta.
What Arata did has nothing with being "cool". He did what he believed was right. He didn't follow the rules therefore he must face the consequences. He wanted to take responsibility for his actions. He was doing the right thing, not trying to be "cool." Some people do things because it's right you know, not because they were trying to be "cool".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Like I said before Taichi has actually never tried to keep Chihaya away from Arata. It's also not like Taichi didn't realize Arata was going to be at Omi Jingu, the only difference is he thought Arata would not show up till the individual match and he did not mentally prepare himself for him showing up now. There is no way that Taichi thought I can keep Chihaya from seeing Arata on this trip. That is not why he is reacting like this.
You probably remember how Taichi often reacted when Chihaya had her Arata moments. If Chihaya met Arata, Taichi's head would be full of this angst-filled feeling of "she loves him, she doesn't love me..." and you would see that blueish/purplish tint on his face and obviously that would affect his play. But he was in denial of this feeling on his part and projected it on Chihaya, yelling at her so she wouldn't meet Arata so he wouldn't witness him and her so he wouldn't be having distractions about Arata/Chihaya during his play. He was so in denial that he would be saying to himself "oh we didn't need this Arata/Queen distraction..." and not even realizing that the fear was his own.

It's jealousy because the core of his outburst was from his complex on Arata/Chihaya relationship that has been whirling in his head since twenty some episodes ago (or maybe more. I haven't been watching.) You know that feeling when you see somebody you like so happy with someone else....
__________________
"I have a dream..."
Grifis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 13:09   Link #720
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifis View Post
It's jealousy because the core of his outburst was from his complex on Arata/Chihaya relationship that has been whirling in his head since twenty some episodes ago (or maybe more. I haven't been watching.) You know that feeling when you see somebody you like so happy with someone else....
But that isn't necessarily the core of his outburst when he himself thinks to himself "what if Arata does watch us play."

Chihaya/Arata might be a part of it but it is not the only part. Taichi's feelings about Arata are way more complicated than that. That is why I am saying it is not just simple jealousy & wanting to keep her away from Arata.

Although I am not saying Taichi is not jealous of what he perceives Chihaya's feelings for Arata to be.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cards, josei, sports

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.