AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-14, 23:03   Link #121
Ulquiorra
Espada
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But since Hinata has a genetic ability and also special clan jutsu we can assume that even with her moderate ninja talent she's stronger than most of the ninja that ever existed (for example the 60-70 thousand alliance ninja who are already dead).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Hinata is a good example of genetic inferiority anyway : she's female and in this manga that's a virtually insurmountable obstacle.
And this is why I don't take Hinata anymore seriously than Tenten.
__________________
Ulquiorra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 01:43   Link #122
The Small One
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i look at things based on the overall story, or if you want to look at it as the latest 90% or so of the story then that's fine. in the overall story, students are not given teachers based on lowest and highest grades. it is no coincidence that kakashi, minato's best pupil, was given minato's son as a student. nor is it a coincidence that he was given sasuke who he could help with the sharingan regardless of whether sasuke was top of the class or not. that old way of thinking makes no sense given the story the way it is portrayed now.
IIRC Kakashi was never meant to be their teacher.
Do you remember the test with the bells? Wasn't it said, that nobody ever passed it? So the one who appointed Kakashi as teacher actually expected team 7 to fail and therefore get another teacher afterwards.
The Small One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 11:08   Link #123
Ero-Senn1n
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
And this is why I don't take Hinata anymore seriously than Tenten.
Because she's not a genius like Neji? Sure you have high standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
and his failure as a teacher
You are too harsh with Kakashi here What's the measure of failure? Naruto and Sasuke will become the strongest ninja of their time and maybe even strongest ever by the end of the manga, so i guess that's not the measure If we look at other teachers they often failed much more than Kakashi. Minato's failed to protect his team, Obito became a crazy evil boss who caused the death of a huge amount of people including his own teacher, the medical ninja of the team died by the hands of her own team, the only survivor didn't care too much about becoming a top ninja any more and instead was escaping into the world of Jiaray's books and also didn't accept to teach genin teams for a long time. In the Kakashi gaiden his team was dysfunctional, they couldn't agree on anything, also Kakashi was not listening to Minato and went to lose his eye which then caused Obito's death and everything else
The 3rd hokage's team also fell apart and one became an enemy, the other was gambling and drinking around the world, the 3rd didn't accept the hokage position despite having mastered sage mode. The 2nd hokage's team went on to become the evil elders of the village who among other things caused the massacre of the Uchiha clan, the madness of Nagato/Pain and the creation of people like Kabuto or Sai. Orochimaru was hated by all his subordinates, except some who were made into mindless servants (sound 5, etc.) that are like suicide bombers. Jiraiya left his team without teaching them how the world works so they were tricked by evil ninja leaders. All of them are dead except Naruto, but he could also be dead by now because Jiraiya never dealt with Danzou, nor did he tell to Naruto and his other apprentices that Danzou is dangerous. Jiraiya was training Naruto for 3 years but it was almost useless since he had no chance against Sasuke or Itachi when he returned from his training with Jiraiya. In contrast with that Kakashi did teach Naruto to use his wind element in just a few days, the frogs did teach him sage mode in a few weeks and Bee did teach him in a few days what Jiraiya couldn't in 3 years.
The only decent teacher in the manga is Naruto considering that Konohamaru is already quite strong and has adopted Naruto's version of the will of fire

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-03-15 at 11:42.
Ero-Senn1n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 12:09   Link #124
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
^kakashi also taught sasuke how to use chidori very quickly. i think he was a great teacher. it seems to be a recurring theme that a couple ninja from every generation will defect and become twisted in some way. it's more a reflection of the ninja system, then it is any particular teacher

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
IIRC Kakashi was never meant to be their teacher.
Do you remember the test with the bells? Wasn't it said, that nobody ever passed it? So the one who appointed Kakashi as teacher actually expected team 7 to fail and therefore get another teacher afterwards.
i think that was all part of the bell test. the students were meant to fail. it was a test of teamwork. just the fact that they did fail and still passed, proves that kakashi was meant to be their teacher after all
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 13:48   Link #125
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
Not sure how you measure 'great teacher', but Kakashi did raise a team that fell to pieces in less than a year, along with raising a missing-nin.

Not saying he's a FAILURE, but he wasn't really that great either.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 14:06   Link #126
Gundamx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Team 7 = best student + smartest girl + worse and dumbest students to balance it out
(Grades from school.)

(Team Gai have best hand to hand user with chakra / without it / + one who use weapon to balance it out)
Gundamx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 15:55   Link #127
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
stuff...
I actually signaled out all the 'Team 7' style teams as ticking time bombs that always seem to end in failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The only decent teacher in the manga is Naruto considering that Konohamaru is already quite strong and has adopted Naruto's version of the will of fire
LOL, there is a lot of truth in this statement. Naruto has had some great individual instruction. In fact, overall individual instruction has generally been good in the series. It's just Team instruction that always seems to fall apart. Kakashi was awful for a Team, but he was very good individually (at least if you had a Y chromosome), and the same seems to be true of quite a few of the 'elite'.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-15 at 17:45.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 16:25   Link #128
Artful Dodger
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Why do you feel he was so "awful" for a team?
Artful Dodger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 16:55   Link #129
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Why do you feel he was so "awful" for a team?
Please refer to my multiple earlier posts detailing why I think Kakashi failed as a teacher for a Team.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 19:23   Link #130
Ero-Senn1n
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Not sure how you measure 'great teacher', but Kakashi did raise a team that fell to pieces in less than a year, along with raising a missing-nin.
In my interpretation it never fell apart, it just finished like a high school would when people go to the university. After the timeskip both Naruto and Sakura returned to Kakashi's team. The only one who left the team was Sasuke but given the story there's no way anyone in the world could have stopped Sasuke from pursuing his revenge, his obsession with revenge was revived when Itachi mindraped him again. I don't think that raising a missing nin is a failure, all the great teachers in the anime raised one. That's called free will, and the teachers who don't let their apprentices have free will and feelings are like Danzou, and that is what i consider the real failure. Danzou created robots like Sai who have no feelings and no free will at all. Robots like that can never surpass their teachers, but the greatest achievemnt of a teacher can be if their students can successfully build on what they were teaching them and develop even greater things. In case of Kakashi both Naruto and Sasuke have surpassed him in what he was teaching them, the rasenshuriken and the kirin are the ultimate elemental jutsu.

It's quite obvious to me that the author wanted Kakashi to be The Sensei of the series, among all the teachers he is the one that was meant to be the best. If you think that Kakashi is a bad teacher then you are not satisfied with the author's performance in this matter.
Ero-Senn1n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-15, 23:09   Link #131
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
^i couldn't agree more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Not sure how you measure 'great teacher', but Kakashi did raise a team that fell to pieces in less than a year, along with raising a missing-nin.
the only problem here is sasuke, despite how you are trying to make it sound. the team didn't fall apart. naruto and sakura are diehard team 7 members. they go to extreme lengths to try and save their former teammate. not only those 2, but sai who was a complete jerk is now also a diehard member and wants to get sasuke back basically for the sake of his teammates. of course sai's change is more due to narutism, but nevertheless he has been all about being a member of team 7.

so really all we're talking about is sasuke here and like Ero-Senn1n said, there wasn't anyone who could have stopped him. whoever you think is a better teacher than kakashi, just put them in his place, and it still wouldn't have reasonably stopped sasuke from leaving to pursue his vengeance.
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 01:45   Link #132
Midnight Commander
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Command center, the ship's bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the only problem here is sasuke, despite how you are trying to make it sound. the team didn't fall apart. naruto and sakura are diehard team 7 members. they go to extreme lengths to try and save their former teammate. not only those 2, but sai who was a complete jerk is now also a diehard member and wants to get sasuke back basically for the sake of his teammates. of course sai's change is more due to narutism, but nevertheless he has been all about being a member of team 7.
Yeah, teamwork is a major theme in the Kakashi Gaiden arc, and also the essence of the very test that team 7 passed in order to become his students in the first place. Apparently Kishimoto hasn't bothered putting much time into conveying teamwork in the story via methods like training arcs and instead spent the training time mostly on Naruto. If we consider the story as a whole, condemning Kakashi because of the lack of teamwork training isn't putting things in perspective, as practically all teachers in the would be considered “failures” by this standard. Indeed, Kakashi a failed teacher doesn't seem to be what Kishimoto is trying to convey.

As for team 7 “abandoning” Kakashi, I also disagree. Naruto and Sakura, when they were ready, simply sought instruction from masters who could offer what Kakashi couldn't. I see it somewhat analogous to a primary care physician referring a patient to a specialist. As for Sasuke, I do think a teacher should also instill virtues such as loyalty, yet things get complicated with circumstances like the Uchiha massacre, since its arguable Sasuke is in fact being “loyal” to his clan.

Still, I don't believe Sasuke's defection reflects badly on Kakashi as a teacher; even Hashirama praised the third in his teaching ability in regards to Orochimaru, and he is one of the most infamous defectors in Konoha's history. Kakashi gave Sasuke sound advice (no pun intended) regarding his hatred, yet we know that only Naruto will be allowed to get through to him for obvious plot reasons, so it really isn't fair to hold that against him either.
Midnight Commander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 08:07   Link #133
Monster0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Rochester NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Because she's not a genius like Neji? Sure you have high standards


You are too harsh with Kakashi here What's the measure of failure? Naruto and Sasuke will become the strongest ninja of their time and maybe even strongest ever by the end of the manga, so i guess that's not the measure If we look at other teachers they often failed much more than Kakashi. Minato's failed to protect his team, Obito became a crazy evil boss who caused the death of a huge amount of people including his own teacher, the medical ninja of the team died by the hands of her own team, the only survivor didn't care too much about becoming a top ninja any more and instead was escaping into the world of Jiaray's books and also didn't accept to teach genin teams for a long time. In the Kakashi gaiden his team was dysfunctional, they couldn't agree on anything, also Kakashi was not listening to Minato and went to lose his eye which then caused Obito's death and everything else
The 3rd hokage's team also fell apart and one became an enemy, the other was gambling and drinking around the world, the 3rd didn't accept the hokage position despite having mastered sage mode. The 2nd hokage's team went on to become the evil elders of the village who among other things caused the massacre of the Uchiha clan, the madness of Nagato/Pain and the creation of people like Kabuto or Sai. Orochimaru was hated by all his subordinates, except some who were made into mindless servants (sound 5, etc.) that are like suicide bombers. Jiraiya left his team without teaching them how the world works so they were tricked by evil ninja leaders. All of them are dead except Naruto, but he could also be dead by now because Jiraiya never dealt with Danzou, nor did he tell to Naruto and his other apprentices that Danzou is dangerous. Jiraiya was training Naruto for 3 years but it was almost useless since he had no chance against Sasuke or Itachi when he returned from his training with Jiraiya. In contrast with that Kakashi did teach Naruto to use his wind element in just a few days, the frogs did teach him sage mode in a few weeks and Bee did teach him in a few days what Jiraiya couldn't in 3 years.
The only decent teacher in the manga is Naruto considering that Konohamaru is already quite strong and has adopted Naruto's version of the will of fire
How the heck could Jiraiya teach Naruto how to control Kyubi chakra when Bee is the only one who could possibly even know how.I guess your right about the other stuff as long as you think that fighting is the only thing worth learning.
Monster0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 08:22   Link #134
Monster0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Rochester NY
The end of this story is obvious now.Just as obvious as the masked mans identity and maybe twice as hard to accept for some.The day will not be won by some fantastic all powerful ninjitsu. What then can save the ninja world from an endless cycle of hatered which is the ultimate goal of every major antagonist and protagonist yet revealed. You know what, i don't don't have to tell you,you can feel it inside your heart.
Monster0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 11:14   Link #135
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
I will say this about my ever present beef with Kakashi (as a teacher) and the creation of Team 7-like teams (amongst other annoyances that detract from repeated viewership): It really doesn't fucking matter. Kishimoto is not trying to make "sense" or be "logical", he is trying to entertain and present a dramatic story. As I said earlier, Naruto and Sasuke being on a team together is just plain stupid, but the connection they forge and the resulting drama is quite compelling and interesting. Simply because what Kishimoto does is stupid (and it often times is), doesn't mean the resulting emotion is false. Much of the story is dramatically sound, even if illogical.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 14:07   Link #136
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post
I guess your right about the other stuff as long as you think that fighting is the only thing worth learning.
kakashi taught team 7 more than fighting. there are many examples of teamwork related lessons he taught them like the bell test, and everything about protecting comrades that kakashi learned back in the kakashi gaiden arc. he also taught them chakra control when he had naruto and sasuke running up trees and he taught naruto how to maximize shadow clones with memory transfer. His lesson to sasuke about revenge was a good one even though it didn't take.

I think people who are calling kakashi a failed teacher are forgetting that not even naruto could convince sasuke to stay and naruto is unquestionably the most persuasive character in the story. in other words, nobody could have prevented sasuke leaving. it was inevitable
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 16:18   Link #137
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
kakashi taught team 7 more than fighting. there are many examples of teamwork related lessons he taught them like the bell test, and everything about protecting comrades that kakashi learned back in the kakashi gaiden arc. he also taught them chakra control when he had naruto and sasuke running up trees and he taught naruto how to maximize shadow clones with memory transfer. His lesson to sasuke about revenge was a good one even though it didn't take.

I think people who are calling kakashi a failed teacher are forgetting that not even naruto could convince sasuke to stay and naruto is unquestionably the most persuasive character in the story. in other words, nobody could have prevented sasuke leaving. it was inevitable
Let's be realistic here, Naruto is a Shounen series, so Kakashi's core job is to get his students stronger. Whether he did or not is the sole indicator of his performance as a teacher (no matter how Kishimoto may wish to frame Kakashi). For simplicity, let's say the 'strength' Kakashi is supposed to teach is both physical prowess/power and strength of character (these are arguably the two most important aspects to focus on as a team). Using both as a lens of focus, it's readily apparent that Kakashi partially succeeded and failed in teaching physical prowess/power, and largely failed at teaching strength of character.

Specifically, besides teaching the basic chakra control technique, he did nothing for his team (no, mentioning Tora indicates nothing; save for the very brief instance with Sasuke during the first Zabuza encounter, we were never shown any teamwork ala the Ino-Shika-Chou levels of preparation or conjoined attacks). But, he did teach Sasuke some advanced techniques, and once Team 7 had been reorganized (without Kakashi at the helm) he did teach Naruto the secret of Kage Bushin (which he conceivably could have taught Naruto on their initial meeting rather than waiting two and a half years, but for whatever reason didn't). Sadly, Sakura never received any instruction from him whether as a team or as an individual. So, he did have moderate success with Sasuke, minimal success with Naruto, and no success with Sakura.

As for strength of character, I actually think he was most influential with Sakura rather than Sasuke and Naruto. Naruto came in to the team with a strong and clear sense of self as well as how to care for others. True he was a fool and he seldom worked well with others, but he came on to the team with the desire to help. The one, and arguably only teamwork/character building lesson that Kakashi taught his team (the bell lesson) was something Naruto already knew, and had even shown during the first chapter with Iruka and the next chapter with Konohamaru. So, Kakashi effectively taught Naruto nothing he didn't already know.

Sasuke is also an interesting case. He did react well to the bell test (he did learn to treat Naruto as a human rather than simply garbage), but it seemingly did nothing for his work with his team. Rather, it was Naruto and their history that was more informative and beneficial to Sasuke's development not anything Kakashi taught him early on. And later, Kakashi tried to teach Sasuke about the destructive nature of revenge, but he was completely ignored. Sasuke effectively abandoned anything Kakashi tried to teach him (however minimal), forsaking the village and his team mates.

Sakura, on the other hand, did learn quite a bit from Kakashi's lessons and words. Coming into the team, she was a conceited, selfish little princess that cared for nothing but herself and her obsession with Sasuke. The story of Part I is, in some respects, the story of her development as a human being (the story of Part I is definitely the story of Team 7's involvement and development), going from an extreme lack of any positive traits, to a caring team mate that actively wants the best for her team mates. Whether this is really something Kakashi helped instigate or not is debatable, but it is obvious that her growth is directly related to whatever Kakashi was attempting to do with his Team.

In the end, it is obvious, at least for me, that Kakashi partially failed at teaching his team how to be physical strong, and also partially failed to teach his team strength of character. Sadly, I do not believe that his minor successes can match up to his much larger failings. He was simply not a good teacher.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 17:50   Link #138
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Let's be realistic here, Naruto is a Shounen series, so Kakashi's core job is to get his students stronger.
he got them as strong as they needed to be for whatever part of the story they were in. all 3 of them passed the forest of death and then the elimination matches (in which sakura tied ino who you are putting on a pedestal above her). that's a better result than any of the other teachers. asuma, gai, kurenai, and even orochimaru's students all fared worse than kakashi's group. he then focused on sasuke because sakura was out, naruto had ebisu and then jiraiya and most importantly gaara was a fearsome competitor. it would have been bad teaching to not prepare sasuke as much as possible to fight gaara

Quote:
he did teach Naruto the secret of Kage Bushin (which he conceivably could have taught Naruto on their initial meeting rather than waiting two and a half years, but for whatever reason didn't)
kakashi didnt teach naruto the kage bunshin memory trick right off the bat because kishi hadn't thought of it yet. it was clearly a retcon

as for sakura, that moreso falls under the 'useless girl' theme of naruto than it does kakashi's teaching. how can he teach someone who kishi has no intention of developing? her development during the sasori arc was clearly forced since she was quickly forgotten soon after. it was more of kishi saying he didnt forget about one of the 'main characters' and then he got tired of her really fast
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 18:13   Link #139
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he got them as strong as they needed to be for whatever part of the story they were in.
So instead of training them to the best of his or their abilities, he only trained them enough for us to suspend our disbelief? (Additionally, isn't this idea comparable to simply 'teaching to the test', which is in turn an awful form of teaching children?) Fair enough. As I already said, drama sometimes matters more than logic. In the end, it still doesn't dismiss Kishimoto's bad planning for Kakashi (especially if we are really supposed to believe that he is a good teacher), but the impetuous was more on the children not the adult pseudo-leading them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
all 3 of them passed the forest of death and then the elimination matches (in which sakura tied ino who you are putting on a pedestal above her).
The only reason they passed the forest of death was due to outside help (and also outside interference). Team 8 and Lee both helped against Sound, Orochimaru also gave Sasuke the seal which helped against Sound as well, then Kabuto (working for Orochimaru) helped to get them to the tower. In many respects, without Orochimaru's help Team 7 would have never left the forest .

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it would have been bad teaching to not prepare sasuke as much as possible to fight gaara
I never claimed otherwise. In fact, I emphasized this part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
kakashi didnt teach naruto the kage bunshin memory trick right off the bat because kishi hadn't thought of it yet. it was clearly a retcon
You can't argue for looking at the series as a whole in one post, and then dismiss the idea in the next. The info for Kage Bushin may or may not be retconned, but either way it clearly detracts from Kakashi's teachings since he does not claim to have recently learned the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
how can he teach someone who kishi has no intention of developing?
Sakura received equal levels of development to Naruto and Sasuke (in Part I). She was still useless in a fight (because of Kakashi ), but she grew just as much as her teammates.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 18:34   Link #140
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
So instead of training them to the best of his or their abilities, he only trained them enough for us to suspend our disbelief? (Additionally, isn't this idea comparable to simply 'teaching to the test', which is in turn an awful form of teaching children?) Fair enough. As I already said, drama sometimes matters more than logic. In the end, it still doesn't dismiss Kishimoto's bad planning for Kakashi (especially if we are really supposed to believe that he is a good teacher), but the impetuous was more on the children not the adult pseudo-leading them.
yea i was more referring to kishi's writing than anything else. i think the characters were advancing as fast as they individually could which reflected the level of severity of each challenge put in front of them, but i guess it's arguable.

Quote:
The only reason they passed the forest of death was due to outside help (and also outside interference). Team 8 and Lee both helped against Sound, Orochimaru also gave Sasuke the seal which helped against Sound as well, then Kabuto (working for Orochimaru) helped to get them to the tower. In many respects, without Orochimaru's help Team 7 would have never left the forest .
the outside interference kind of ruins the FOD since they had to battle a hokage-level opponent and summonings. even though they had no chance, they still retained some of kakashi's teachings like when naruto blocked the giant snake and said he wouldn't let his teammates die and when sakura carried an unconscious naruto and sasuke away from the fray and watched over them. also prior to orochimaru's interference they were doing well and used smart team tactics like using the password that naruto wouldn't get. of course this involved tricking a team member


Quote:
You can't argue for looking at the series as a whole in one post, and then dismiss the idea in the next. The info for Kage Bushin may or may not be retconned, but either way it clearly detracts from Kakashi's teachings since he does not claim to have recently learned the info.
good point still though, does it reflect poorly on kakashi as a teacher? he did teach it to naruto after all, just a long time after he 'should' have. in this case, i would put the blame on kishi, but i can't argue if you want to blame kakashi for being late about it
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.