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Old 2013-03-16, 21:01   Link #161
Tusjecht
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Right then. About their fight only:

Spoiler for Pile vs SR:
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Last edited by Tusjecht; 2013-03-16 at 22:18.
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Old 2013-03-16, 22:12   Link #162
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Right then. About their fight only:

Spoiler for Pile vs SR:
Urgh. Tus, your past tense is my future tense.

When you said he "fought" with them, I thought you meant he had fought with them before Haruyuki became Silver Crow. Because he obviously hadn't fought them after that happened. Because for me, that battle you talk about isn't "fought", it's "WILL fight".

For me, the "present" is still set around the end of the anime; definitely NOT any farther than the meeting of the Kings to discuss Silver Crow's infection.


Spoiler for Takumu:
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Old 2013-03-16, 22:15   Link #163
Tusjecht
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My bad, editing.

Also including the volume in which the fight happens.
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Old 2013-03-17, 01:17   Link #164
Shiyumi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
So you're saying that if Silver Crow had reached Level 2 without discovering flight, his bonus choices would have revealed his flying power (by offering upgrades to flight), or he would have otherwise gotten his choice of a bonus AND the system would finally show Aviation in his status screen?
The later, like what happen to Roller and Taker. Just think it like a normal game, when you reach a certain level new skill(s) appears and you can choose t learn it or upgrade the current skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Except they're not called points! That's the problem we're having with you. They're called bonuses, but there are so few of them that there's no reason to call them "points"!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Shiyumi, like Gold said; the "bonus point" are't points you can invest in one or even multiple new skills/moves, it's a choice you can make upon spending Burst Points and levelling up.
From now on, I will call them level up bonus. My thought process: when they level up they get one point and choose what to do, but the game make it simpler: you level up, you get one choice, do it(learn or upgrade). tusjecht, what you said are general the same as me, just remove the point part. And I never said Burst Points have something to do with skill. Also, did you guys agree on the skill system, since "bonus point" or "bonus choice" have no effect on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That's just painfully obvious, isn't it? It's clear that he wouldn't have done it if it seemed like a BAD idea.
The best ideal I can think of for now is this: What will happen if someone able to collect all parts(or their user) of the great constellation.
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Old 2013-03-17, 09:59   Link #165
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
The later, like what happen to Roller and Taker.
Vertical Climb was not a hidden ability. It is not something that Ash Roller originally had. That's why it was a bonus.

Ash Roller was built around the Night Rocker. The motorcycle may have already had various options like snow-treads for the "Ice and Snow" stage or a jet-ski mode for water-based stages (otherwise the bike would be a huge liability)...

But the power to climb walls was just as much an "extra" as the enhanced speed or the missiles.


For Silver Crow, having Aviation be hidden would have been like the Night Rocker or Pile Driver or Choir Chime start out unequipped and hidden from Roller, Pile and Bell. These are the central features they are built around.

Aviation is not an "extra", it's an "essential". Vertical Climb is no more essential to Ash Roller than Splash Stinger is to Cyan Pile.


Quote:
The best ideal I can think of for now is this: What will happen if someone able to collect all parts(or their user) of the great constellation.
They'd get a spoon or a bear?

Also, the word is "idea". "Ideal" is something different.
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Old 2013-03-17, 14:23   Link #166
Tusjecht
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Actually I'm pretty sure absolutely nothing will happen even if you claim every piece of Arc equipment. I'm putting this in [good spoiler tags], Gold, unless you know about the Arcs and who owns them:

Spoiler for Seven Arcs:
On a side note it seems the author arbitrarily assigned the stars the Greek lettering names. Wikipedia has it differently.

So if you realise, you have multiple weapons and multiple protective equipments. Not only is it highly unlikely you actually need more than one Armament 99.9% of the time, the inability to equip possibly more than two Armaments at the same time meansthe rest will be sitting in your storage doing nothing. Eg. You can equip Zeta and Alpha at the same time maybe, but what will happen to the unused Epsilon?

Ownership of more than a single Arc is also highly unrealistic because of the sheer number of Enemies you're going to have to fight to get to one. V7 should already indicate how difficult it is to obtain even one.

And taking ownership into account, the easiest six of the Seven Arcs have already been obtained. Four of them are being wielded by Kings, no less. One has been locked up and the last one is unreachable in the near future. To own more than one you'd need to figure out how to kill a King...
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Old 2013-03-17, 14:34   Link #167
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Theft is also possible. Sulphur Pot lost the Mystic Reigns.

The Fluctuating Light is the one Arc no one's gotten, and it's presumed to rest in the heart of the Forbidden Palace that no one has breached, yes?

But the Luminary, the Destiny and the Infinity all came from the same palace?


The Palace is surrounded by walls which cannot be flown over or dug under; the only way to enter is through the gates, which are each guarded by an Enemy stronger than even Legendary class. Too strong for the Black King or any Element to defeat alone.

(Which suggests that KYH and her compatroits could solo Legendaries, otherwise I don't see them having enough false confidence to even try it.)


Azure Heir can enter the UNF from inside the walls, presumably because he's the crown prince. But surely he had to defeat at least some kind of Enemy to gain the Infinity. (Which is a straight sword rather than a katana? Huh.)
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Old 2013-03-17, 14:41   Link #168
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Theft is also possible. Sulphur Pot lost the Mystic Reigns.

The Fluctuating Light is the one Arc no one's gotten, and it's presumed to rest in the heart of the Forbidden Palace that no one has breached, yes?

But the Luminary, the Destiny and the Infinity all came from the same palace?

Azure Heir can enter the UNF from inside the walls, presumably because he's the crown prince. But surely he had to defeat at least some kind of Enemy to gain the Infinity. (Which is a straight sword rather than a katana? Huh.)
Every Arc other than The Infinity, Destiny, and Fluctuating Light all have their own dungeon. The Luminary's owner has yet to make an appearance in either the anime or LNs.

Azure Heir actually lives inside the palace, so I think he actually just spawns inside the safe area, wher he could pick up the Infinity, but not inside the safe area for TFL.

And The Infinity is described to be like a katana, but straight rather than curved so that it resembles a western sword.

Edit: yea, TFL resides at the very centre of the palace.
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Old 2013-03-17, 21:24   Link #169
Sunder the Gold
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So, I read Versus.

It confirms that the author must not have originally known that "Cyan" refers to a greenish blue, because this text describe Pile as a "blue color which slightly tilted in the purple direction". Other LNs often describe Cyan Pile as "indigo-blue".


"...Ash Roller, he is more like the green than the grey type," she says. But when and where does "grey" come into the picture? There's no grey scale outside of the color wheel, and no room for grey within the wheel.

On top of that, what color is "Ash" supposed to be? When I first watched the anime, I figured it was supposed to be a "dirty white" color, like soot-stained bone. After all, he's a skull-faced, leather-clad miscreant riding a gas-fueled motorcycle. The only "green" spots on him are a few gems.


It confuses me that even Kuroyukihime, the Pure Black Burst Linker and Child of the Pure White Burst Linker, whose experience includes other Black avatars like Graphite Edge and Aqua Current and possibly other White avatars... would not understand what White and Black mean in the color system.

The translation has KYH call Black the "rejected color", but the way she uses it, I have to wonder if "the rejectING color" or "color of rejection" is more appropriate. Not the color of those rejected by the char-gen (character-generation) system, but the color of those who reject the world and other people.

Haruyuki says that this isn't true, citing how KYH reached out to him, but people can take exceptional actions. If Haruyuki is only an exception in KYH's general isolation and stand-offishness, that's not proof. And he's surely biased.

Even KYH sees herself as one "who couldn't interact with other people". And her lack of hands to hold, and her many blades which discourage holding, speak to isolation and rejection. Just as Aqua Current's water-armor/body rejects any intrusions or impurities just as much as identifying features that other people can relate with.

In the end, I don't think I got any closer to figuring it out.

However, the author perhaps deliberately intended to draw a parallel between the Black Swordsman Kirito and Black Lotus. Perhaps the color black has a specific meaning for the author, and he used Haruyuki to convey that to his readers.

The idea that black is actually the warmest, most receptive and supportive color of all.
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Old 2013-03-17, 21:43   Link #170
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
So, I read Versus.

It confirms that the author must not have originally known that "Cyan" refers to a greenish blue, because this text describe Pile as a "blue color which slightly tilted in the purple direction". Other LNs often describe Cyan Pile as "indigo-blue".


"...Ash Roller, he is more like the green than the grey type," she says. But when and where does "grey" come into the picture? There's no grey scale outside of the color wheel, and no room for grey within the wheel.

On top of that, what color is "Ash" supposed to be? When I first watched the anime, I figured it was supposed to be a "dirty white" color, like soot-stained bone. After all, he's a skull-faced, leather-clad miscreant riding a gas-fueled motorcycle. The only "green" spots on him are a few gems.


It confuses me that even Kuroyukihime, the Pure Black Burst Linker and Child of the Pure White Burst Linker, whose experience includes other Black avatars like Graphite Edge and Aqua Current and possibly other White avatars... would not understand what White and Black mean in the color system.

The translation has KYH call Black the "rejected color", but the way she uses it, I have to wonder if "the rejectING color" or "color of rejection" is more appropriate. Not the color of those rejected by the char-gen (character-generation) system, but the color of those who reject the world and other people.

Haruyuki says that this isn't true, citing how KYH reached out to him, but people can take exceptional actions. If Haruyuki is only an exception in KYH's general isolation and stand-offishness, that's not proof. And he's surely biased.

Even KYH sees herself as one "who couldn't interact with other people". And her lack of hands to hold, and her many blades which discourage holding, speak to isolation and rejection. Just as Aqua Current's water-armor/body rejects any intrusions or impurities just as much as identifying features that other people can relate with.

In the end, I don't think I got any closer to figuring it out.

However, the author perhaps deliberately intended to draw a parallel between the Black Swordsman Kirito and Black Lotus. Perhaps the color black has a specific meaning for the author, and he used Haruyuki to convey that to his readers.

The idea that black is actually the warmest, most receptive and supportive color of all.
"Grey" refers to colours that are mixed with more black in them, indicating special attack affinity. Gold, don't look at his mask, if Crow is anything to go by the mask is not the same colour as the body. Look at his chest piece instead; that dark green that looks more like mossy green or a leaf is the colour Ash.

KYH just doesn't want to talk about her Parent. And actually, I suspect they rarely interacted much in AW, due to an implication from a [bad] spoiler between herKYH and Graphite Edge.

Edge isn't a "greyscale" avatar either. Good spoiler:
Spoiler for Edge's colour:


As for everything else about black, I actually think the answer lies in their IS; good spoiler:
Spoiler for KYH's IS:


In other words, «trying to connect with others» when they previously cannot.

...but Black Vise is punching a massive hole in this.
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Old 2013-03-18, 06:15   Link #171
Shiyumi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Vertical Climb was not a hidden ability. It is not something that Ash Roller originally had. That's why it was a bonus.

Ash Roller was built around the Night Rocker. The motorcycle may have already had various options like snow-treads for the "Ice and Snow" stage or a jet-ski mode for water-based stages (otherwise the bike would be a huge liability)...

But the power to climb walls was just as much an "extra" as the enhanced speed or the missiles.

For Silver Crow, having Aviation be hidden would have been like the Night Rocker or Pile Driver or Choir Chime start out unequipped and hidden from Roller, Pile and Bell. These are the central features they are built around.

Aviation is not an "extra", it's an "essential". Vertical Climb is no more essential to Ash Roller than Splash Stinger is to Cyan Pile.
There is no hidden ability in Accel World, it not just to appear. When Roller was Lv1 has nothing except the bike(just a normal bike with no additions at that time). Crow still has Punch, Kick and SP Headbutt. And a Lv2, full HP Roller still lost to a Lv1,damaged Crow(without Flight) in a first fight.
Even Lv1 Pile has nothing except his stinging attack, and Crow probably able to win again him(accord what happen in Vol1). The system decide that Crown Lv1 is fine without Flight. Actually it was rather unfair when he got Flight at Lv1, almost no Lv1 can win against him. That was the benefit to learn Passive Skill during battle, include doesn't cost bonus(even through it rather hard, especially if you not yet known the skill name. Its principle probably similar to what Raker said "You did not fly because of the wings. It’s the opposite. So that you can fly, you made the wings materialize.", a pseudo way learning IS skill.)

Quote:
They'd get a spoon or a bear?
They'd get a Shen Long or a Game Creator?

Quote:
Actually I'm pretty sure absolutely nothing will happen even if you claim every piece of Arc equipment.
tusjecht, that was a very basic scenario. You just need to collect them not equip, and you have many method to collect(fighting, negotiation, trickery, trap...)

Quote:
In other words, «trying to connect with others» when they previously cannot.

...but Black Vise is punching a massive hole in this.
No, the basic is «isolation», after that you two sides of a same coin: «try to connect with others»--«strength to accept everything(Kirito happens)» or «reject others even more»--«absolute isolation(Black Vise happens)»

Also, "he already followed Kuroyukihime’s advice and put all of his level up bonuses into speed and flight time upgrades.". I think 'speed' refer to avatar's speed not flight's speed(the sentence express that way) and get really curious about the variety of 'bonus choice upgrade window'. Also if your «Enhanced Armament» isn't beginning equipment, you suppose to obtain it by using bonus. But after that, do you get option to upgrade it directly or only through its skills.

Last edited by Shiyumi; 2013-03-18 at 10:04.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:04   Link #172
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Gold, don't look at his mask, if Crow is anything to go by the mask is not the same colour as the body. Look at his chest piece instead; that dark green that looks more like mossy green or a leaf is the colour Ash.
Hmm, good point. And yeah, I can kind of see how his chest and shoulder armor is a pale, dirty Green.


Quote:
"Grey" refers to colours that are mixed with more black in them, indicating special attack affinity.

Edge isn't a "greyscale" avatar either.
But you said Grey is something with a lot of black, and he's a Blue with lots of black, but he's not Grey. Which is it?


Quote:
I suspect they rarely interacted much in AW, due to an implication from a [bad] spoiler between herKYH and Graphite Edge.
No, THIS I'm interested in.

I've been wondering why Lotus, who apparently once idolized her sister, would take a different mentor in Graphite Edge and break away from White Cosmos to form her own legion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
There is no hidden ability in Accel World
Of course there is. Aviation didn't appear on Silver Crow's Move List at all, despite being an ability that requires deliberate, conscious activation.

It was therefore, at least in some sense, hidden.


Quote:
When Roller was Lv1 has nothing except the bike(just a normal bike with no additions at that time).
You assume he didn't have a Special Attack? I think he probably had one, but didn't need it in either fight. By the time the second fight went badly for him, he couldn't use his bike-based Special Attack, just as Cyan Pile's SP gauge became useless after Dusk Taker destroyed his Pile-Driver.


Quote:
And a Lv2, full HP Roller still lost to a Lv1,damaged Crow(without Flight) in a first fight.
Which just goes to show how badly an easy win can slip away if your opponent manages a clever trick to neutralize your advantage. The fight between Silver Crow and Cyan Pile worked out the same way, only with less cleverness and far more dumb luck.


Quote:
Even Lv1 Pile has nothing except his stinging attack
Groundless conjecture. You not only have no evidence to support this idea, I have evidence to throw right back at you. Lime Bell and Silver Crow both had Special Moves even at Level 1. Silver Crow's attack was pathetic, but indicates that the similarly pathetic Spiral Gravity Driver may also be a Level 1 special attack.


Quote:
The system decide that Crown Lv1 is fine without Flight.
Except it didn't because it gave him flight right from the start. That was a done deal, and the system couldn't very well take it away.


Quote:
Actually it was rather unfair when he got Flight at Lv1, almost no Lv1 can win against him.
Silver Crow is weak against Red opponents. Before he activates flight, they can shoot him before he can close in to punch or kick, and when he flies he becomes a wide open target.

He had some easy wins for a Level or two, because people were still figuring out how to deal with a flier, but then everyone figured out his weakness, which anyone with a decent ranged attack could exploit.

He figured out how to counter snipers, but that's just covering for his weakness. It doesn't eliminate the weakness, nor prevent snipers from coming up with counter-counter strategies.


Quote:
"You did not fly because of the wings. It’s the opposite. So that you can fly, you made the wings materialize."
Yeah, and he did this when he had the nightmare. In the nightmare, he wished for flight, and the wings were born to give him flight.
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Old 2013-03-19, 19:17   Link #173
Tusjecht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But you said Grey is something with a lot of black, and he's a Blue with lots of black, but he's not Grey. Which is it?
With no other word to express the black-ness of a colour, it seems inevitable in hindsight, this'd happen.

I meant to say that he is a blue colour mixed with lots of black to get a nearly black avatar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
No, THIS I'm interested in.

I've been wondering why Lotus, who apparently once idolized her sister, would take a different mentor in Graphite Edge and break away from White Cosmos to form her own legion.
Okay then. For clarification; Edge and Cosmos didn't interact, it's between KYH and Edge.

Spoiler for Edge and Lotus:


Awrya...okay, I'll consider it.

In the meantime, I'd better hurry to translate V11.2, Breakdown16 just got out V8.3. ):
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Old 2013-03-23, 18:22   Link #174
Orange Duke
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I wonder....

Could Silver Crow's wings be a result of IS? It does shimmer in the anime when activated, and Raker has hinted that the wings were a direct result of his desire.

That might explain why his ability was 'hidden': it was never there from the start. It does seem strange after all, considering how other avatars had their full abilities listed right from the start and Crow only unlocked 'Aviation' after getting his wings to sprout.

Though it'll probably take tremendous willpower for you to craft a physical body part out of simply pure thought.

Or could it be that the wings were always there, just waiting to be unlocked with a level-up bonus and Haru simply forced it to sprout prematurely through IS?

That would open up a whole can of worms though.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:33   Link #175
Awrya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Duke View Post
I wonder....

Could Silver Crow's wings be a result of IS? It does shimmer in the anime when activated, and Raker has hinted that the wings were a direct result of his desire.

That might explain why his ability was 'hidden': it was never there from the start. It does seem strange after all, considering how other avatars had their full abilities listed right from the start and Crow only unlocked 'Aviation' after getting his wings to sprout.

Though it'll probably take tremendous willpower for you to craft a physical body part out of simply pure thought.

Or could it be that the wings were always there, just waiting to be unlocked with a level-up bonus and Haru simply forced it to sprout prematurely through IS?

That would open up a whole can of worms though.
It shouldn't be an IS ability, since flying with his wings consume his special gauge, which IS abilities don't.
His character was built around the flying ability, his level-up bonus was to extend flying time, which only makes sense if his wings were his base ability at Lv.1.
He could also have chosen a projectile skill, which is a completely new skill unlike flight extension.

Have a look at the last two pages, there was quite an interesting discussion about the skills of Dusk Taker and Silver Crow.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:47   Link #176
Tusjecht
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I'd go with the second proposition, that the wings were there and Crow unlocked it early. This might even explain Dusk Taker too (Duke, read up the last few pages for a textual free-for-all all about Taker).

Arwya, interesting is an underestimation

Hmm. Using IS but it doesn't look like IS, may well explain a lot of weird stuff. Like Lotus vs Radio, this opens up a possible explantion that Radio's baton couldn't get cut, he was using IS to give his baton a boost, but not so much that it starts to glow.

A little V13 spoiler since relevant topic:

Spoiler for Who uses what IS:
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:54   Link #177
Sunder the Gold
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Niko calls the four types of IS technique "basics", and says that the other, older Kings have long ago grown past their own mental scars while she still struggles with her own.

I just assumed that the White, Yellow, Green, Purple and Blue Kings have IS abilities unlike anything we've yet seen. Though Raker could very well be their equal or superior in that regard, as I doubt any of them spent as much time training their Image power.

KYH missed out on 2000 virtual years of training in comparison, unless she used private networks to dive into the Unlimited Neutral Field. She probably had to do that, from time to time, to hunt Enemies for points so that she could afford to keep Accelerating and checking for Burst Linker on the school network.

Poor Graphite Edge and Ardor Maiden couldn't even do that much. They'll be even more out of practice than KYH.
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Old 2013-03-23, 22:00   Link #178
Tusjecht
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They still can duel without fearing a God spawning on their ass. Likely they simply went to places like the Akihabara BG and fought for BP once in a while.
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Old 2013-03-23, 22:16   Link #179
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
They still can duel without fearing a God spawning on their ass.
So, EK mode or similar circumstances don't actually prevent you from accessing the Normal Duel Field?

Makes me very curious as to why Edge and Maiden haven't attempted contact with Black Lotus... and why they haven't been located or wiped out by the surviving Great Legions.


Brain Burst itself provides no method of Instant-Messaging other Burst Linkers. Haruyuki and Yuniko have to use regular e-mail and "telephone" calls to stay in touch. But given that KYH and Utai know each other's real names and faces... and Edge could use an anonymous e-mail address just as Haru and Niko do.


Wouldn't it also be possible to escape EK mode by running as far away as possible before the God Enemy kills you? Then running away some more when you respawn? Two years seems like plenty of time to "inch" yourself away from the Enemy's aggro-radius.
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Old 2013-03-23, 22:38   Link #180
Tusjecht
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In the KYH wiki spoiler, they attempted the Palace invasion after Rider got chopped, so after even that failed, it was either because they were in deep enough trouble without trying the invasion, or they suspected Lotus' leadership after having had sh*t hit the fan twice. Whichever was the case at that point in time they're still high-level Linkers, it's highly unlikely they'll be seriously hunted just by affiliation to Lotus.

As for why they can't inch out of the palace...that place is classified as a dungeon, right? It would not surprise me that dungeons have their own special rules regarding respawns, particularly a rule that says they must respawn inside the aggro area, not just where they died.

The way I see it, V9 is the closing of a second arc in the story, the rescue if Maiden and the purification of the armour. Now that I acquired chinese raws of all volumes...I kinda regret taking up V11 first. But I'll finish that first before I consider V9.
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