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Old 2013-03-18, 02:52   Link #741
Zavie
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As Eita's legal guardian, I think she has the right to do that to some extent. There's nothing wrong with just voicing your opinions or concerns to a family member. And after all, the final decision still lies with Eita, the aunt said so herself.
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Old 2013-03-18, 02:55   Link #742
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zavie View Post
As Eita's legal guardian, I think she has the right to do that to some extent. There's nothing wrong with just voicing your opinions or concerns to a family member. And after all, the final decision still lies with Eita, the aunt said so herself.
If it was for his own good:
- that was something they should have discussed in private, not in front of his harem.
- after one glance? She had no basis for it.

Conclusion: she did it for shits and giggles. Like he's not emotionally scarred enough.
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Old 2013-03-18, 03:13   Link #743
Zavie
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If it was for his own good:
- that was something they should have discussed in private, not in front of his harem.
- after one glance? She had no basis for it.
Some people are just that prank and honest. Even if she has no basic, it's not like she got it wrong either. Also, she said so herself that it was her intuitive opinion, if you take it seriously, you are already losing.

And she did talk to Eita alone after that, and god, Eita's rabu rabu act was painful, all the more reasons for her to firmly stand for her opinion.

As far as I can see, she didn't press any issue on Eita or question him. She basically was just sharing her own view and told Eita to get his pants together and stuff. I see no harm in that.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Conclusion: she did it for shits and giggles. Like he's not emotionally scarred enough.
But well, if that's how you see it, fair enough.
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Old 2013-03-18, 04:52   Link #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zavie View Post
Some people are just that prank and honest.

I think you meant Frank

anyway, I'm getting some weird yaoi vibes from Kaoru. Leaning to another man's shoulder is... doubtful, no guy in the right mind would do that to another guy (except as a joke or something)
I hope Kaoru is a reverse trap, else... wtf this show
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Old 2013-03-18, 06:01   Link #745
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Besides, I find the aunt's logic specious to begin with. Making games make you an expert in human nature? It's like claiming being a painter makes you an expert in botany because you paint a lot of fruit baskets.
I get your intention, but wrong analogy, or more precisely, it's not so wrong in reverse. Having an understanding in human nature/psychology does help in designing a satisfactory game, and having some knowledge of botany or anatomy or anything of the object you draw may help you get better at painting.
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Old 2013-03-18, 11:44   Link #746
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Saeko was breaking the fourth wall right there, Ai remains the best girl individually but I'm still leaning slightly towards Chiwa when it comes to the relationship, Eita treats Ai too indifferently for her sheer dereness . Although the Himeko texting scene was both nice and funny. And Eita proves to be slightly smarter than the average harem MC I think he is partially aware they all like him.
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Old 2013-03-18, 12:41   Link #747
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Besides, I find the aunt's logic specious to begin with. Making games make you an expert in human nature? It's like claiming being a painter makes you an expert in anatomy because you paint a lot of human bodies.
There, corrected the analogy. Indeed, to be able to draw the human figure (anime sstyle or otherwise) you need at the very least some knowledge of the human skeleton and to draw some beef you need real knowledge of the muscle structure, the more practice the better you become at it.

Therefore, Saeko must have spent a lot of time looking at real humans do the lovey-dovey stuff classifying their behavior, supposedly female brains are better at that stuff since for them love is an analogical value (not a binary value like it registers on our male brains).
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Old 2013-03-18, 13:12   Link #748
orion
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
There, corrected the analogy. Indeed, to be able to draw the human figure (anime sstyle or otherwise) you need at the very least some knowledge of the human skeleton and to draw some beef you need real knowledge of the muscle structure, the more practice the better you become at it.

Therefore, Saeko must have spent a lot of time looking at real humans do the lovey-dovey stuff classifying their behavior, supposedly female brains are better at that stuff since for them love is an analogical value (not a binary value like it registers on our male brains).
Nah, games operate on recognized character types and responses that the gamers are used to. Just because you do games doesn't make you a relationship expert.
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Old 2013-03-18, 13:19   Link #749
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Nah, games operate on recognized character types and responses that the gamers are used to. Just because you do games doesn't make you a relationship expert.
Cough Cough.

Spoiler for TGWOK:
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Old 2013-03-18, 13:29   Link #750
Okashira
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Besides, I find the aunt's logic specious to begin with. Making games make you an expert in human nature? It's like claiming being a painter makes you an expert in botany because you paint a lot of fruit baskets.

I know what's bothering me so much about it. One glance, and she tries to sabotage her nephew's relationship over an assumption she has no right to make (even if she turns out to be right). What is wrong with her?
Ah, you are kinda misreading the situation. Saeko's point was that when you are doing something fake for other people to believe, you have to do it even more perfect than the real thing for people to like it.... Does that sound like something or someone we know? That's obviously the whole logic behind Masuzu's personality, in other words she totally saw through her with no effort (Masuzu even points out something similar later).

As for the relationship, it's pretty obvious that Eita "retreats to his shell" emotionally by shunning everything that has to do with romance; so it gets the feeling that Saeko is trying to force him into something for the chance of changing his basic attitude for the better. And well--- Also, by her word selection, it feels like she wants to pave a path on which he juggles between all 4 girls
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Old 2013-03-18, 13:31   Link #751
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Old 2013-03-18, 14:55   Link #752
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Zavie View Post
Some people are just that prank and honest.
It was inconsiderate and irresponsible. Frankness and honesty at best explain it, they don't excuse it. What would you think if some guy called you an ugly, stupid, <homophobic slur> <racial slur>, and added he was just calling it as he saw it?

Quote:
Even if she has no basic, it's not like she got it wrong either.
Doesn't matter. Besides, all she got right was that Masuzu was putting on an act. It's not the same as being right about her feelings.

Quote:
Also, she said so herself that it was her intuitive opinion, if you take it seriously, you are already losing.
What if the girls take it seriously? What if Eita was really in love with Masuzu but they broke it off because his aunt introduced a doubt that played on the insecurities he got from his parents running off? Sure, you can say in that case that the relationship was fragile to begin with. But given time, it might have strengthened... if some asshole hadn't interfered just for cheap laughs.

I know she isn't actually malicious. But I stand by the words I used: irresponsible and inconsiderate.

Quote:
And she did talk to Eita alone after that,
My point was that she shouldn't have talked about it in public at all. Not that she also had to talk about it in private.

Quote:
and god, Eita's rabu rabu act was painful, all the more reasons for her to firmly stand for her opinion.
It just means Eita isn't willing to confide in her, and I don't blame him. Especially given the circumstances, but even if it'd been a genuine relationship, given her attitude I wouldn't blame him if the first thing he said about it was "by the way, we're getting married tomorrow. Can you make it?".

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I get your intention, but wrong analogy, or more precisely, it's not so wrong in reverse. Having an understanding in human nature/psychology does help in designing a satisfactory game, and having some knowledge of botany or anatomy or anything of the object you draw may help you get better at painting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
There, corrected the analogy. Indeed, to be able to draw the human figure (anime sstyle or otherwise) you need at the very least some knowledge of the human skeleton and to draw some beef you need real knowledge of the muscle structure, the more practice the better you become at it.

Therefore, Saeko must have spent a lot of time looking at real humans do the lovey-dovey stuff classifying their behavior, supposedly female brains are better at that stuff since for them love is an analogical value (not a binary value like it registers on our male brains).
Bull. What people look for in those titles isn't reality. At best, they can look for some realism, in a "reality is unrealistic" sort of way. But reality? No.

And ogon_bat? Screw your correction. A painter may know anatomy, but that doesn't make him a surgeon.

Speaking of - would you trust Hugh Laurie to diagnose you? I mean, he played a doctor. Obviously he spent so much time observing them and absorbing their knowledge, right? And Dr House acts just like a real genius doctor would, too, or the series wouldn't have been successful, right?


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Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Cough Cough.

Spoiler for TGWOK:
Entertaining, sure. Intelligent? It is, also, a work of fiction. Catering to people who like such games in the first place. Yet another escapist, wish fulfillment harem series. (That's not meant as an insult - I love those. I also don't take them for documentaries on human interactions.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
Ah, you are kinda misreading the situation. Saeko's point was that when you are doing something fake for other people to believe, you have to do it even more perfect than the real thing for people to like it.... Does that sound like something or someone we know? That's obviously the whole logic behind Masuzu's personality, in other words she totally saw through her with no effort (Masuzu even points out something similar later).
That's a good point. I indeed hadn't seen it that way. But all it means is that Masuzu's wearing a more elaborate mask than most. It doesn't mean Eita hasn't seen a more genuine face when they're alone, and it doesn't mean they're not in a relationship. That's certainly a legitimate concern to raise... just not in front of Eita's harem.
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Old 2013-03-18, 15:42   Link #753
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Bull. What people look for in those titles isn't reality. At best, they can look for some realism, in a "reality is unrealistic" sort of way. But reality? No.

And ogon_bat? Screw your correction. A painter may know anatomy, but that doesn't make him a surgeon.

Speaking of - would you trust Hugh Laurie to diagnose you? I mean, he played a doctor. Obviously he spent so much time observing them and absorbing their knowledge, right? And Dr House acts just like a real genius doctor would, too, or the series wouldn't have been successful, right?
Way to miss the point and moving goalposts. And here you are giving lectures about being considerate? I suggest you cool off both your mind and your attitude or STFU.

Come back later when you're sober and we might have a decent discussion going. Or if barging in pointing shotgun at everyone in the room is your idea of discussion then please close the door to this saloon from the outside.
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Old 2013-03-18, 15:43   Link #754
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Bull. What people look for in those titles isn't reality. At best, they can look for some realism, in a "reality is unrealistic" sort of way. But reality? No.
Red. Your post is quite irrational, but I will try to get the most out of it. It is unclear if by titles you are referring by galgames, shoujo manga or pink prose, but in each and every on of those the reader needs something he can relate to, we are not talking about some alien experience akin to an acid trip. That is why in said media is common that the main character is a high schoolers, which is what most of the time the readers are (or were) themselves so they can relate to the events. If the situations are unrealistic the reader can't relate to the story and will drop it, even in a fantasy setting where you have the love story between a human and a youkai (or alien, or robot) what the reader is gauging is how much he can relate to it, in simple words, how realistic the romance is.

Quote:
And ogon_bat? Screw your correction. A painter may know anatomy, but that doesn't make him a surgeon.
Where you you want me to screw it for you? No, seriously, it is beyond wild to think that the prior text somehow is trying to make people believe that a painter is a surgeon (albeit some surgeons are painters).
But a writer (where you do galgames, manga or prose does not change the title) does learn a little from human behavior (it can be a mix of instinct, learning from interactions with your fellows and even reading some psychology books) to produce his manuscripts and Saeko's work is all about romantic relations. Are all galge writers as good at gauging your fellow romantic relation? probably not, but I have no trouble believing there can be some galge writer's as skilled as Saeko IRL.

Quote:
Speaking of - would you trust Hugh Laurie to diagnose you? I mean, he played a doctor. Obviously he spent so much time observing them and absorbing their knowledge, right? And Dr House acts just like a real genius doctor would, too, or the series wouldn't have been successful, right?
... and it gets even wilder, now you are saying (yes, it is you) that an actor due to mimicking how a surgeon reacts in front of people gives the actor the uncanny powers to make surgical operations on human beings. Read carefully, when Hugh Laurie learns to mimic the procedure of an operation (which he never does for his actor job) then it would make sense to assume he can really do a surgeons work.
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Old 2013-03-18, 16:13   Link #755
Zavie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It was inconsiderate and irresponsible. Frankness and honesty at best explain it, they don't excuse it. What would you think if some guy called you an ugly, stupid, <homophobic slur> <racial slur>, and added he was just calling it as he saw it?
You are taking this way out of the context. Saeko did not outright insult anyone like you said in the post. She was very careful with her words and trying to take it as literally as she can. You are supposed to laugh it off.

I won't bother replying to the rest because however you want to interpret, Saeko did get the fact right that they are on a fake realtionship and Masuzu's feelings for Eita are questionable. She didn't say anything like Masuzu didn't love Eita at all or they were in the wrong for faking the relationship. It was just her intuition of a woman. If your behaviours make her intuition raises questions, then obviously you also have to watch out.

All the what-ifs you said are just something you simulate inside your head to back up your arguement and it has no value whatsoever in this context, sorry. I'm not going to argue with your own scenario.

Whether she's irresponsible or inconsiderate, if your actions are obvious, someone is going to point it out eventually anyway, be it Saeko or someone else. You don't expect their little facade to last forever, do you?
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Old 2013-03-18, 17:13   Link #756
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What bothers me the most is how Saeko pulls it out her ass that their relationship is a fake just for the drama, and seems to miss that Masuzu has feelings for Eita. It'd have been a better reveal at the beach after having observed their relationship a bit.

"Your relationship is fake because you're too perfect" is laughable.
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Old 2013-03-18, 17:44   Link #757
Zavie
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"Your relationship is fake because you're too perfect" is laughable
This coming from after the 4 of them taking the test. TBH, Masuzu's answer was like something you would hear from a relationship experts that are on TV shows or something.

I know Masuzu has the "cool" card carrying out the entire series, but that can also be read as pretencious or goody two shoe very easily, even irl. I wouldn't be surprise if there're even rumors that Masuzu is taking advantage of Eita going around school, reallly.

Quote:
What bothers me the most is how Saeko pulls it out her ass that their relationship is a fake just for the drama, and seems to miss that Masuzu has feelings for Eita. It'd have been a better reveal at the beach after having observed their relationship a bit.
Sometimes, life is just that unexpected, unfortunately. This tends to happen sooner or later anyway.

And sure, she has feelings for Eita, but what kind of feeling? Would it be love, or even amidration like what Ai, Chiwa and Hime have, or just a sense of companionship and pride? I think whatever it is, Saeko was correct with her affection ranking.

And even though Seako's remark is mainly aimed at Masuzu. Eita has his question share as well, does he love Masuzu, a relationship normally requires both ways, right? Eita dogded the question by lying to saeko, but how does he really feel? He indeed need to think about that, and tiem will answer.
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Old 2013-03-18, 18:47   Link #758
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Way to miss the point and moving goalposts.
I haven't moved the goalposts. It remains about how Saeko's claim that producing fiction somehow makes you an expert on the subject matter. Especially fiction that doesn't even attempt to be realistic.

Quote:
And here you are giving lectures about being considerate?
I may be inconsiderate, but I'm not a teenager's legal guardian talking to him and his friends.

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I suggest you cool off both your mind and your attitude or STFU.
Of course, Kettle.

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Come back later when you're sober and we might have a decent discussion going. Or if barging in pointing shotgun at everyone in the room is your idea of discussion then please close the door to this saloon from the outside.
Shotgun? What, exactly, are you trying to accuse me of?

Have I somehow used personal attacks? Like tell someone he had no right to express his opinion? Implied he was drunk? Or deformed his post in the name of "correcting" it?

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
Red. Your post is quite irrational, but I will try to get the most out of it.
So gracious of you.

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It is unclear if by titles you are referring by galgames, shoujo manga or pink prose,
Does it matter? It can be any fiction, but is especially valid of works that put no emphasis on research and realism, like galgames, shoujo manga or pink prose. (Non exhaustive list.) I don't even know where you pulled those examples from.

Quote:
but in each and every on of those the reader needs something he can relate to, we are not talking about some alien experience akin to an acid trip. That is why in said media is common that the main character is a high schoolers, which is what most of the time the readers are (or were) themselves so they can relate to the events. If the situations are unrealistic the reader can't relate to the story and will drop it, even in a fantasy setting where you have the love story between a human and a youkai (or alien, or robot) what the reader is gauging is how much he can relate to it, in simple words, how realistic the romance is.
But as I said, reality is unrealistic. Works must be believable, but that's not the same as realistic. Especially when the avowed goal of such a work is to escape the tedious or painful aspects of reality. (Like the fact that, as a rule, everyday average high schoolers don't get harems of girls completely obsessed with them.)

Quote:
Where you you want me to screw it for you? No, seriously, it is beyond wild to think that the prior text somehow is trying to make people believe that a painter is a surgeon (albeit some surgeons are painters).
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that even if you limit to anatomy, a painter's knowledge doesn't compare to a surgeon's.

Quote:
But a writer (where you do galgames, manga or prose does not change the title) does learn a little from human behavior (it can be a mix of instinct, learning from interactions with your fellows and even reading some psychology books) to produce his manuscripts and Saeko's work is all about romantic relations. Are all galge writers as good at gauging your fellow romantic relation? probably not, but I have no trouble believing there can be some galge writer's as skilled as Saeko IRL.
And I'm saying it's specious because:
- galgames don't even attempt to be realistic when it comes to human behavior;
- it doesn't matter because galgames buyers aren't looking for realistic human behavior;
- even if the previous two points were wrong, it still wouldn't mean that writing galgames, even being good at it, enables you to read the truth of a relationship at a single glance. It's even more ludicrous as a Sherlock Homes-expy guessing your life story from the way you chose to dress today.

Quote:
... and it gets even wilder, now you are saying (yes, it is you) that an actor due to mimicking how a surgeon reacts in front of people gives the actor the uncanny powers to make surgical operations on human beings. Read carefully, when Hugh Laurie learns to mimic the procedure of an operation (which he never does for his actor job) then it would make sense to assume he can really do a surgeons work.
Actually, I spoke of diagnosing people. Because that's what Dr House did. Diagnostics. That and take drugs. (Or so I heard, I haven't watched the series.)

All to illustrate the absurdity of Saeko's premise, which you share: that producing an imitation that convinces laymen (or that they at least find compelling enough to overlook its flaws) somehow means you're an expert at the real thing. Now, I know an actor doesn't have role analogue to that of a game developer. Maybe I should have looked up the name of a script writer. But it's a team effort. Feel free to pick any member of Dr House's production staff. Or all of them. Except maybe the medical consultants, if there were any. I read the medical errors were pretty glaring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zavie View Post
You are taking this way out of the context. Saeko did not outright insult anyone like you said in the post.
I prefer to think of it as a magnification. Because as I hinted earlier, it wasn't immediately obvious to me either why I reacted negatively.

But the insulting side of it was just to show that being "frank and honest" justified nothing.

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She was very careful with her words
"careful" is the last word I'd use.

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and trying to take it as literally as she can. You are supposed to laugh it off.
I would have, if she'd explained it was a joke when it became clear the girls were taking her seriously.

Besides, what do you mean? We're supposed to take her words literally, or just forget them because it's a joke?

Quote:
I won't bother replying to the rest because however you want to interpret, Saeko did get the fact right that they are on a fake realtionship and Masuzu's feelings for Eita are questionable.
Maybe it's the former math teacher in me, but how you get a result is as important to me as whether it's the good one or not.

To use another hyperbole: imagine a guy goes on shooting rampage and kills half a dozen people. Randomly.

Now imagine that, by coincidence, all those people were terrorists about to go on their own shooting spree, and by killing them he saved many more people.

Is he a hero? No, he's still a nutjob who shouldn't be allowed to have a weapon.

(And yes, I know what Saeko did is insignificant in comparison.)

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She didn't say anything like Masuzu didn't love Eita at all or they were in the wrong for faking the relationship. It was just her intuition of a woman. If your behaviours make her intuition raises questions, then obviously you also have to watch out.
Yeah, and I wouldn't have minded if she'd taken Eita aside to tell him that. But five seconds into meeting her she decides Masuzu isn't Eita's girlfriend? And declares so in front of everyone?

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All the what-ifs you said are just something you simulate inside your head to back up your arguement and it has no value whatsoever in this context, sorry. I'm not going to argue with your own scenario.
I'm saying she had no way of knowing it wasn't like that. That's what being careless is - taking useless risks based on insufficient information. And taking risks with other people's happiness, including the kid you're guardian of? Well, I think I've already said what I thought of that.

Quote:
Whether she's irresponsible or inconsiderate, if your actions are obvious, someone is going to point it out eventually anyway, be it Saeko or someone else. You don't expect their little facade to last forever, do you?
No. But I don't like the way she attacked it, or her reasons for doing so.
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Old 2013-03-18, 19:20   Link #759
HandofFate
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I'm fine with it, because Masuzu is lame, and Ai is the best.
And quite frankly, Masuzu's characterization this whole season is near non-existance. All we get is vague hints of 'okay, she does kind of really care about the relationship' but other than that, you get no info at all on her background or anything internal about her. Where the other 3 girls, we're getting the whole course.
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Old 2013-03-18, 20:14   Link #760
Daniel E.
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Can I ask people to calm down some?

I'll start checking some posts from here on out.
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