AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-17, 18:45   Link #3381
Plushie
Pudding Chomper
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Canada eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felyndiira View Post
And pacing is one of the main problems of Achiga, in my opinion - somewhere alongside the "sparkle power mahjong," "Ryuuka is now Toki," and the fact that most of the Achiga characters has less personality than some of the supporting characters of the main manga. When I finished reading the semifinals arc of Saki, I actually felt as if I know and cared about the dreams of these characters - as if they are actually human with motivations, dreams, and a personality. Not a single team in Achiga-hen (not even Senriyama after spending four chapters crafting Toki's character) was able to even inspire a fraction of that feeling.
This is very true. (atleast for me) I did kinda feel for Toki but her collapsing doesn't really tell me much about who they are.
Plushie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 19:47   Link #3382
Marina2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Ritz acutally put too much care on Nagato players and too much idea in prefecture match - so much that other characters introduced afterward are overshadowed by them in both character and mahjong skill. The later matches after prefecture round also don't have the same level of detailed as in prefecture round.

The feeling you get from the captain match of prefecture is totally like the grand final battle. I will even accpept it if the entire series end at Kiyosumi go to national. (But since we have Saki and Teru plot, that can't happen).
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic44739_1.gif
Marina2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-17, 21:14   Link #3383
teja208
Critical fanboy
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine
I don't find post-Nagano Final characters any less appealing. I mean in every team there are one or two characters that stand out more than others such as Kazekoshi which can be described as Mihoko's harem, and Miyamori as Toyone and friends. That's just me of course.
teja208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 09:44   Link #3384
morli
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Maybe the reason Shizu power not revealed till now because her power isn't spectacular? Unlike Rinshan kaihou that can pull an amazing win in unexpected way, Shizu power is preventing another player to win with their usual style. It's just really different. If Saki can rake point in one go, Shizu can reduce her opponent win in one go.

It's a shame Shizu ability isn't based around yaku. She doesn't have a spectacular way to win off someone hand like Saki rinshan kaihou or Awai double riichi. Could you imagine Shizu getting yakuman with her ability? With the universe running rampant with supernatural power, getting yakuman out of nowhere without any ability will be lame. Heck, Shizu had never got haneman yet!

Really, without hax opponent, Shizu play will be very ordinary. Not good enough to be showed on the screen.
__________________
Different view give different opinion

Last edited by morli; 2013-03-18 at 10:05.
morli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 13:14   Link #3385
Gohan78
Awakened One
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
My problem with Chapter 20 was that I perceived Shizu not as a monster but as a "badass normal" who fought monsters through sheer determination.

Simplifying a bit, there are two types of sports manga protagonist:
1. the natural born genius.
2. the average player who, through hard work and determination, manages to compete with the best in the game.

Up to chapter 19, Shizu was firmly in category 2, while in chapter 20 we suddenly learn that she is a category 1 monster.

IMHO Ritz's fault was showing only the last two rounds of the captain match of the quarterfinals. What did we learn from that game?

1. Shizu deals into a haneman -> sign of a bad player
2. Shizu makes up for her mistake through her "never give up" attitude, obtaining a splendid victory after changing her wait 3 times.

From this bit of gameplay, I concluded that Shizu was not a very strong player but a player who fights until the last tile. I liked the idea of a normal player fighting against a table full of monsters in the finals. Sadly this possibility was shattered by the last chapter.

I disagree with people who claim that Shizuno is a defensive player. First of all, it doesn't suit her personality. Second thing, the score of the QF round means nothing because it could be the result of a big win followed by a big loss.

As for Shiraitodai, I think that Ritz's mistake was actually making Teru too strong. She had too much of a lead after the vanguard match (>90k). So much that the only way to avoid a curbstomp was for the other players in Shiraitodai to perform badly. If Teru had won by a more reasonable margin, like 30-40k, she would still be perceived as the number one in Japan (considering that she didn't even use all her tricks!) but the match would have been more balanced.
__________________
Tibi, magnum Innominandum,
signa stellarum nigrarum
et bufaniformis Sadoquae sigilim.
(De Vermis Mysteriis)
Gohan78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 17:58   Link #3386
Von Himmel
やっはろーヽ(*∀`)ノ
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dollars
Having a small talk with my friend, I couldn't help but to notice:
Shizu -> Intuition + anti-demon -> Reimu
Saki -> Flower based theme -> Yuka
Awai -> Star -> Marisa

Now we just need one more to symbolize Mima and we're set
__________________
その光りは、単なる一筋の光りではない。人類の希望を繋いだ。


Von Himmel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 19:30   Link #3387
MarkS00N
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
My problem with Chapter 20 was that I perceived Shizu not as a monster but as a "badass normal" who fought monsters through sheer determination.
As has been said for several pages, that's the problem...
MarkS00N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 20:21   Link #3388
Rava
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by morli View Post
Maybe the reason Shizu power not revealed till now because her power isn't spectacular? Unlike Rinshan kaihou that can pull an amazing win in unexpected way, Shizu power is preventing another player to win with their usual style. It's just really different. If Saki can rake point in one go, Shizu can reduce her opponent win in one go.

It's a shame Shizu ability isn't based around yaku. She doesn't have a spectacular way to win off someone hand like Saki rinshan kaihou or Awai double riichi. Could you imagine Shizu getting yakuman with her ability? With the universe running rampant with supernatural power, getting yakuman out of nowhere without any ability will be lame. Heck, Shizu had never got haneman yet!

Really, without hax opponent, Shizu play will be very ordinary. Not good enough to be showed on the screen.
I'm basing this theory purely on Ako's comment about possibly being able to stop Kuro's dora monopoly now, but it's highly possible that the ability was simply too weak to really use before, and that she has to successfully use it on people in order to get better with it.

Kuro and Yuu are simply just too strong in using their abilities in order for Shizu to succeed in using hers, so she never gets any experience in locking them down. On the other hand, once they were exposed to a much larger variety of people for Shizu to play against, she was able to successfully use it on other power users of various levels to build up experience with using it successfully, which set off a chain reaction of improvement. They were gambling, after all, on whether Shizu was strong enough to start blocking Awai, and once she successfully did it, she got better and better at it really quickly.

It's like how Mako needed more experience with beginners because she got royally screwed playing against one.

I would not be the LEAST bit surprised if Teru's mirror also indicates the (present) strength of an ability, and thus whether Teru can overpower parts of it directed towards her or not. Kind of like how Toki tried to change results on Teru's draws and failing initially, then managing to make her deal in to Kuro after exerting huge, mind numbing effort on her ability to make it stronger.
Rava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 20:35   Link #3389
XenahortCharybdis
does whatever he wants.
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atop a hill of words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rava View Post
I'm basing this theory purely on Ako's comment about possibly being able to stop Kuro's dora monopoly now, but it's highly possible that the ability was simply too weak to really use before, and that she has to successfully use it on people in order to get better with it.

Kuro and Yuu are simply just too strong in using their abilities in order for Shizu to succeed in using hers, so she never gets any experience in locking them down. On the other hand, once they were exposed to a much larger variety of people for Shizu to play against, she was able to successfully use it on other power users of various levels to build up experience with using it successfully, which set off a chain reaction of improvement. They were gambling, after all, on whether Shizu was strong enough to start blocking Awai, and once she successfully did it, she got better and better at it really quickly.

It's like how Mako needed more experience with beginners because she got royally screwed playing against one.

I would not be the LEAST bit surprised if Teru's mirror also indicates the (present) strength of an ability, and thus whether Teru can overpower parts of it directed towards her or not. Kind of like how Toki tried to change results on Teru's draws and failing initially, then managing to make her deal in to Kuro after exerting huge, mind numbing effort on her ability to make it stronger.
While this does indeed make sense, I think it bodes a little dangerously for the Zenkoku-hen captain match up.

Because if Shizu really does have some kind of Ability Counter EXP Bar, then the whole of the finals' captain match is going to look like the last episode of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

Just look at the potential for it - Awai can paralyze someone else's game (and her ability is what, judged by the alignment of stars (tiles?)), Saki can make pull plays right out of probability's fickle behind in outer space, and now we have Shizu of the Counter Hit...

...plus that unknown fourth player whose chances of being a Monkey Wrench or a Beat-Up Pinata are 50-50...

...yeah. Let your imagination do the rest. The series has already resorted to serial escalation before with much less than this, what more now?
XenahortCharybdis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 20:51   Link #3390
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rava View Post
I'm basing this theory purely on Ako's comment about possibly being able to stop Kuro's dora monopoly now, but it's highly possible that the ability was simply too weak to really use before, and that she has to successfully use it on people in order to get better with it.

Kuro and Yuu are simply just too strong in using their abilities in order for Shizu to succeed in using hers, so she never gets any experience in locking them down. On the other hand, once they were exposed to a much larger variety of people for Shizu to play against, she was able to successfully use it on other power users of various levels to build up experience with using it successfully, which set off a chain reaction of improvement. They were gambling, after all, on whether Shizu was strong enough to start blocking Awai, and once she successfully did it, she got better and better at it really quickly.

It's like how Mako needed more experience with beginners because she got royally screwed playing against one.

I would not be the LEAST bit surprised if Teru's mirror also indicates the (present) strength of an ability, and thus whether Teru can overpower parts of it directed towards her or not. Kind of like how Toki tried to change results on Teru's draws and failing initially, then managing to make her deal in to Kuro after exerting huge, mind numbing effort on her ability to make it stronger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis View Post
While this does indeed make sense, I think it bodes a little dangerously for the Zenkoku-hen captain match up.

Because if Shizu really does have some kind of Ability Counter EXP Bar, then the whole of the finals' captain match is going to look like the last episode of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

Just look at the potential for it - Awai can paralyze someone else's game (and her ability is what, judged by the alignment of stars (tiles?)), Saki can make pull plays right out of probability's fickle behind in outer space, and now we have Shizu of the Counter Hit...

...plus that unknown fourth player whose chances of being a Monkey Wrench or a Beat-Up Pinata are 50-50...

...yeah. Let your imagination do the rest. The series has already resorted to serial escalation before with much less than this, what more now?
I don't really agree with an EXP bar. I think it really just depends on whether Shizu is in 'the zone'. As in, the feeling of being one with the (mahjong) mountain, which is itself dependent on the types of opponents she's facing.

For example, if you think of the kind of ascetic mountain climbing Shizu was doing, these kinds of conditions can come to mind: long, arduous, solitary, never-ending, difficult, etc. And it's not just the mahjong tiles Shizu sees as mountains--it's also her opponents. The illustration of Awai and Ryuuka as 'mountains' from Shizu's perspective had them looking strong, tall, and unshakeable. It's these kind of conditions (strong, unshakeable enemies; long, arduous paths to tenpai; a solitary connection to the tiles) which unlock Shizu's experience of being one with the mahjong table.

So then, once Shizu has reached that state of mind, she can maintain it for a little while, even against different opponents (such as Kuro). However, Shizu basically has to rev up again and get back into that state to use her power in every single game.

This "leadup time" for Shizu's ability also explains Harue and Ako's warm-up for Shizu before the captain's match.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 21:00   Link #3391
teja208
Critical fanboy
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine
To say the least, for the final captain match I'm hoping the fourth player will be another top-tier monster as well. And no pinata player please Ritz. I don't want to see Ikeda Kana 2.0 in the making.
teja208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 22:47   Link #3392
The Green One
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
If Shizu's ability takes time to "warm up" as we call it, then perhaps the warming up before Shizu's match had additional meaning beyond the initial obvious part.
The Green One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 00:08   Link #3393
XenahortCharybdis
does whatever he wants.
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atop a hill of words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I don't really agree with an EXP bar. I think it really just depends on whether Shizu is in 'the zone'. As in, the feeling of being one with the (mahjong) mountain, which is itself dependent on the types of opponents she's facing.

For example, if you think of the kind of ascetic mountain climbing Shizu was doing, these kinds of conditions can come to mind: long, arduous, solitary, never-ending, difficult, etc. And it's not just the mahjong tiles Shizu sees as mountains--it's also her opponents. The illustration of Awai and Ryuuka as 'mountains' from Shizu's perspective had them looking strong, tall, and unshakeable. It's these kind of conditions (strong, unshakeable enemies; long, arduous paths to tenpai; a solitary connection to the tiles) which unlock Shizu's experience of being one with the mahjong table.

So then, once Shizu has reached that state of mind, she can maintain it for a little while, even against different opponents (such as Kuro). However, Shizu basically has to rev up again and get back into that state to use her power in every single game.

This "leadup time" for Shizu's ability also explains Harue and Ako's warm-up for Shizu before the captain's match.
One with the mahjong table eh. That's a little too sweet for a plot device of that sort.

But I confess, my mention of an EXP bar was a terrible analogy. I suppose it's more like a Limit Break bar, then.

Still my worry remains, that essentially the whole thing is going to be a long show of increasingly ridiculous 'one-upsmanship' with nothing but a bunch of drawn/animated special effects to keep it on the right side of the thin red line that lies between 'cool' and 'hilariously bad'.

Addressing what teja mentioned, it may or may not even matter anymore if the 4th girl on the table is a monster or a badass normal.

Actually it might be less monotonous if she isn't a beast. Unlike Kana she might actually be able pull off a plucky comeback that we can count on and root for - well, before she gets crushed under the collective soul-wrenching weight of plot armor anyway. Or if nothing else she can provide us some relief from the constant attempts by Saki to be a Bleach fight scene without swords and with fan-fuel-pretending-to-be-motivation turned up to Eleventy Thousand.

If not it's going to be more of the same, pretty much.

Sometimes I wish we could finally move beyond a plot with the thickness of washed-up tracing paper, bust sizes ranging from Negative A to I for Impossible, and on to some real super-powered mahjon-

-Oh, blimey. Who on earth do I think I'm kidding? And I'm something of a hypocrite to boot, I enjoyed the first seven episodes of Saki Side B. And I tried to enjoy Saki Side A too.

But I qualify, once the characters started taking turns to gob-smack each other (and me) in the face with Greater Than Impossible as though that was the only thing left to do in the world even if Instrumentality was going to start in the next sixty seconds...that was when it started getting irritating.

"The Glasses Game"/"Hell's Sleight"/"The Invisible Hand" (Side B Nagano prefecture arc finals sergeant, lieutenant and vice-captain matches) were one of my more liked parts of the story for this reason I guess - sure there was still some super-power thingamajiggies in there.

But at least there was some aspect of real mahjong or some introspection on life that I could actually identify that is actually succeeds in co-existing with the super-powers and ship goggling instead of being utterly overwhelmed by them. Or just Jindai. And Hatsumi. Or that mummy girl. Or that chain-gun bondage duo. What the heck is with those character designs?
XenahortCharybdis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 01:36   Link #3394
Marina2
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
To say the least, for the final captain match I'm hoping the fourth player will be another top-tier monster as well. And no pinata player please Ritz. I don't want to see Ikeda Kana 2.0 in the making.
You meaned Ikeda Kana 3.0?

Then, you should hope that Saki will get raped in semi-fnal or else the 4th player will be Kyouko for sure.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic44739_1.gif
Marina2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 01:56   Link #3395
teja208
Critical fanboy
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine
Personally, I don't consider Kyouko to be Kana 2.0. I see her as something closer to Yumi. She's very fast in adapting to her opponents despite being under preasured by no less than 3 monsters. Still, in the final captain match, I don't mind presence of badass normal that much, but still after confirmation that Shizu is no ordinary player, at this point I'm just hoping to witness an entire table full of monsters/monster slayers that can keep up with fully powered Saki for a change.
teja208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 02:18   Link #3396
XenahortCharybdis
does whatever he wants.
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atop a hill of words.
I suppose, I suppose. And Word of God willing, some nice touching 'punch you in the feels and twist your emotional innards out' character exposition so that the ensuing slugfest isn't just that - a mindless power slugfest.
XenahortCharybdis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 04:08   Link #3397
Gohan78
Awakened One
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
As has been said for several pages, that's the problem...
But it was bad writing on Ritz's part that made many readers understand Shizu as a "badass normal". The counterargument that "she is the main character, therefore she must be a monster" doesn't work because there are sports manga protagonists who are not natural born geniuses (e.g. Hanamichi Sakuragi).
__________________
Tibi, magnum Innominandum,
signa stellarum nigrarum
et bufaniformis Sadoquae sigilim.
(De Vermis Mysteriis)
Gohan78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 07:23   Link #3398
tsunade666
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In my room
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
But it was bad writing on Ritz's part that made many readers understand Shizu as a "badass normal". The counterargument that "she is the main character, therefore she must be a monster" doesn't work because there are sports manga protagonists who are not natural born geniuses (e.g. Hanamichi Sakuragi).
Actually Sakuragi is a bad comparison on Shizu because Sakuragi has talent and even beat gorilla captain sure he isn't genius but pretend to be one but has a relentless will but he has talent. That height and jumping power.

But Shizu is different. She wasn't shown that has talent or anything worth mentioning unlike Sakuragi. Though we know Shizu doesn't gave up and has a strong will to go challenge the odds and win. That is a sign of a good and generic Shounen protagonist -_- we aren't shown Shizu that has talent or a glimpse of her being a monster/monster slayer. Which is really frustrating and felt like an bulls**t when it was shown in the last chapter.
__________________

tsunade666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 10:34   Link #3399
MarkS00N
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan78 View Post
But it was bad writing on Ritz's part that made many readers understand Shizu as a "badass normal". The counterargument that "she is the main character, therefore she must be a monster" doesn't work because there are sports manga protagonists who are not natural born geniuses (e.g. Hanamichi Sakuragi).
3 things that make people think Shizu isn't monster:
1) Ritz try too hard to make Achiga an underdog by making her in dire position in quarterfinal.
2) Anime tries to emphasize the 'underdog' label by make Achiga lose to every other Nagano player.
2) Anime use the flame eye, that only belong to Shizu, on another character much as a sign of determination to such player.

Ritz has spring several foreshadowing about Shizu before, but the urge to make Achiga become 'The Underdog' has alter the meaning of those foreshadowing.
I won't blame much on Ritz because she only did one mistake which even can be denied by the fact hat Shizu can alter her hand from one big hand to another big hand in the final south round of quarterfinal...

For me, the blame mostly come from anime that:
a) Not improve the not so good pacing of manga
b) Try to emphasize more of the 'underdog' feeling
c) Think Shizu's fiery eye as determination and paste it on other player

Why does 'underdog' feeling seems important to Ritz and anime staff?
Well, because the consensus is people always root for the underdog, but this time it is a bit too much.

Oh, and half of the people aren't pissed at Shizu has power but at Shiraitodai no longer the final boss. But then again, I only answer to why you and people have certain expectation of Shizu and though it is because the shitty writing of Achiga.
MarkS00N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 11:32   Link #3400
teja208
Critical fanboy
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere with anime and anime discussion is fine
I think Ritz is at fault for not putting much effort in foreshadowing Shizu as more than just ordinary player.

As for the anime studio, they seems to have no idea about future material when they made the first 12 episodes so like us viewers they too were under the impression that Achiga is underdog team struggling against the champion without any knowledge of Shizu's true potential. The proof of that is how they have no arm rest prepare for Yuu to spot Sumire's tell, and they switch Shiraitodai members' sitting possition at the end of ep. 12 in the Blu-ray/DVD to match the manga. So in the end, it's mostly Ritz's fault for lack of communication with the studio on the specific plot points, or maybe she hasn't finish planning how the rest of the match will turn out which includes Shizu's ability.
teja208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mahjong, nopan, seinen, sport, yuri

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.