AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-18, 01:49   Link #12901
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Let me repeat again the requirements for a 'coherent' explanation of Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi: first, the factor in question needs to be demonstrated in the manga yes, but you must also explain why Medaka's character should care about it (i.e. why it's important to Medaka's character arc). The alleged 'physical attraction' you've mentioned is merely a secondary by-product of the original emotion I explained to you, Medaka's gratitude for Zenkichi's devotion. Unless you can demonstrate that physical attraction to Zenkichi would be significant to Medaka's character for some other reason, it doesn't constitute a contradiction to my claim that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi is defined by his devotion to her.

You have been the one going on a diversion. What is the original context of our discussion? Your contention that there was ever some substance to Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi beyond her emotional dependence on him. Now you are saying there is zero substance/depth to their current relationship. Doesn't that simply make my point? If you strip away the sole factor which ever added any remote weight to Medaka's relationship (her appreciation for Zenkichi's devotion to her), then you are left with nothing to justify her continued romantic interest in him. I'll ask again, are you suggesting that the reason Medaka and Zenkichi should be expected to get back together after they complete their maturation away from each other, is because she is physically attracted to him? If no, then you have no in-story justification for your expectation that Nishio will not actually break this relationship, only your preconceived assumptions and prejudices, the very things Nishio has made a habit of destroying.

Do you now not see what an ass you have been making of yourself? "Boohoo, I can't handle the suggestion that Medaka and Zenkichi won't end up together. I'm going to throw up an argument based on my instinctual disagreement with such a theory, despite having zero logical backing for my objection. All I have to offer are subjective 'observations' and a groundless confidence that Nishio won't upset my expectations." What a joke, try actually thinking next time before getting on your self-righteous soapbox.
I’m quite certain I haven’t “made an ass” out of myself to anyone but you. Hell, I only ever initially responded to your points because you consistently dress them up in some absurdly condescending viewpoint of comprehensive objectivity, as though you’re seemingly the only one that’s able to understand the finer nuances within the story, what with all your mentions of what is essentially a “given” to occur for their character development to naturally progress. You naively assume that absolutely nothing can be left open to interpretation, which constantly leads to an effort from you to illustrate and subsequently foreshadow every single significant development that’s going to occur for the main characters. As such, you continuously suggest that for the story or character development to ever go in another direction than what your preconceived notions have previously indicated would be a serious compromise of Nisio’s “literary self-worth” or some such nonsense.

Honestly, I don’t even particularly love their relationship, especially Medaka’s occasionally detached part in it, but I’ve realized the inevitability of their relationship for quite some time. Not to mention, I stated that their relationship lacks depth, not that it’s altogether devoid of it. The dependency, in and of itself, is an element of depth, as well as Zenkichi’s previously held and thankfully dismissed adherence to his blind reliance to live for Medaka alone. Following their maturation, I expect they’ll have partially, if not completely, shed the flawed aspects of their love for one another, whilst realizing the positive aspects of said love. For one, it appears to be increasingly indicated throughout the story that Medaka has legitimately understood Zenkichi’s feelings and has reciprocated them out of a desire to be with him, which doesn’t, in this case, equate to mere dependency, but also to an appreciation of him as an individual.

The only reason I ever mentioned her attraction to Zenkichi is because you desired to see any moment within the entire story that was even minutely disconnected from dependence within the emotions she was feeling at the time, and I offered you a clear example, and, predictably, you dismissed and nearly overlooked it altogether and told me to try again, despite it’s legitimacy. I don’t see how you can claim that physical attraction is bred from dependency, when thirteen or so years of considerable dependency had passed prior to that confession, and I hardly saw a glimpse of attraction on her part. Of course, that alone wouldn’t necessarily be able to sustain a relationship long-term, but, as long as she’s capable of that separate emotion, it seems pretty evident that she’s capable of others as well. Ones that are removed from the childish dependency that still resided within her. However, you seem dogmatically intent on manipulating every single gesture of affection into an unavoidable display of an emotion that is solely derived from her dependence on Zenkichi‘s presence in her life.

Quote:
Of course Kumagawa wasn't trolling. Medaka's return represents a genuine victory for him both because it was something he bet on and something he desired. Do you think he's going to be seriously satisfied now however with just that single, insubstantial victory? Is there any interpretation you can apply where this one victory significantly changes Kumagawa's character? Because y'know, that's the actual point of character development, isn't it? Not just to have a 'symbolic' moment of a character changing somehow, but to actually show that change.

Kumagawa's character will not change until he actually achieves his ultimate victory. Until his character finishes changing, Kumagawa will not have finished his story. Your (again) naive and superficial interpretations of what Nishio's supposed intentions are is the only basis you have for calling Kumagawa's story over. When in fact, any cursory analytical overview of Kumagawa's character development would clearly tell you that his story is not finished. This is something even you have already understood instinctively. What I am telling you is that Nishio's adherence to proper literary writing is what is going to win out, not your preconceptions of what Nishio supposedly 'meant' in the story.
How the hell is this point actually up for debate. Of course Kumagawa can and likely will win again, but, according to the developments within the 185th chapter, Nisio’s writing of the development, and Kumagawa’s words, his ultimate victory has already passed and it‘s absurd to blindly state otherwise when the evidence was displayed for all to read. But no, of course, he’ll now need to attain an even more significant “ultimate victory” wherein he magically rescues Medaka’s heart from the pits of isolation, thus producing derisive glee in shipper's hearts everywhere. His ultimate victory has always been known to be the victory that he finally acknowledges with sincerity and he only recently did just that.

I simply don’t understand why, as a supposed Kumagawa fan, you’d be so welcoming to a development that diminishes his character’s worth so dreadfully. I mean, in what way would you actually want Kumagawa‘s character to change, aside from winning more frequently? Would you honestly want that change to be represented by him earning Medaka’s love and softening up into this romantically inclined individual. What a way to ruin his character, since, of course, according to you, his development into a romantic partner for Medaka is the only way to achieve "proper literary writing", and yet you honestly don't see any sort of a biased delusion creeping into that statement? If not, there's truly nothing I can say, since your perception of Kumagawa's growth is so laughably misguided.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 17:52   Link #12902
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
^That post is just amazing.

I couldn't for the life of me have said it better myself.

Bravo, Sir. Kudos to your ability to put your thoughts into words.
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 19:42   Link #12903
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
...
So it's 'naive' to attempt any objective analysis now? I have always been open to any alternative interpretations (in fact, spent the majority of this conversation asking for them), so long as there is any remotely arguable evidence to support it. If you've insisted all this time that things are 'open to interpretation', then why have you been unable to produce any objectively justified example of one?

In fact, your current position seems to imply that you've given up entirely on contesting any of my claims on objective literary grounds, leaving your only objection an assertion that claims based on them will be mistaken. You yourself acknowledge the lack of non-obstructive depth to Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship. You yourself acknowledge the travesty of framing Kumagawa's recent victory as the end of his character arc. By any measure, you (and anybody else who would attempt a logical argument) have already acknowledged my position that these elements of the story constitute shoddy writing. And yet, you have an issue with my statement that leaving them as they are would be a compromise of narrative integrity? Having already gone on record along with Wolfenstein in calling Kumagawa's 'resolution' last chapter a narrative travesty, what a load of hypocrisy.

The only difference in our positions thus far is that you actually seem to prefer to believe in the persistence of these narrative failures, as opposed to considering the actual possibility that Nishio will correct them credibly. You insist that these narrative failures must be or become a constant in the story, as opposed to developing in a way which would lead to a coherent outcome. The absurdity and superficiality of having wasted time arguing such a nonsensical position is something I can only laugh at.

I will admit, I have a personal investment in my belief that Nishio is a good writer, and that Medaka Box will turn out to be a decent, coherent story. Now can you, having spent this much time arguing with me, claim to have accomplished anything aside from proving a personal investment in your belief that Medaka Box will be an incoherent story? And for what reason? Fanboyism of Zen? What a joke.

Quote:
The only reason I ever mentioned her attraction to Zenkichi is because you desired to see any moment within the entire story that was even minutely disconnected from dependence within the emotions she was feeling at the time, and I offered you a clear example, and, predictably, you dismissed and nearly overlooked it altogether and told me to try again, despite it’s legitimacy. I don’t see how you can claim that physical attraction is bred from dependency, when thirteen or so years of considerable dependency had passed prior to that confession, and I hardly saw a glimpse of attraction on her part. Of course, that alone wouldn’t necessarily be able to sustain a relationship long-term, but, as long as she’s capable of that separate emotion, it seems pretty evident that she’s capable of others as well. Ones that are removed from the childish dependency that still resided within her. However, you seem dogmatically intent on manipulating every single gesture of affection into an unavoidable display of an emotion that is solely derived from her dependence on Zenkichi‘s presence in her life.
I'll summarize your argument for you. You're attempting to make two objective claims: that there were no other examples of Medaka showing 'physical attraction' to Zenkichi, and that the existence of this physical attraction indicates a reasonable possibility of Medaka developing alternative, non-self-limiting, reasons for liking Zenkichi.

As for the first claim, you're going to have to explain to me how Medaka's confession in ch. 140 demonstrates new attraction distinct or any greater than her previous confession in chapter 35. In both cases the confession was superficially based on Zenkichi being 'cool'. While in both cases Medaka was still firmly set in emotional dependency. In fact, what these examples do show is that Medaka's 'confessions' for Zen or expressions of romantic or 'physical' attraction occurs in moments when Zenkichi appears particularly dependable.

Your second claim followed from the first. Do you have any issues with it being discredited?

Quote:
I simply don’t understand why, as a supposed Kumagawa fan, you’d be so welcoming to a development that diminishes his character’s worth so dreadfully. I mean, in what way would you actually want Kumagawa‘s character to change, aside from winning more frequently? Would you honestly want that change to be represented by him earning Medaka’s love and softening up into this romantically inclined individual. What a way to ruin his character, since, of course, according to you, his development into a romantic partner for Medaka is the only way to achieve "proper literary writing", and yet you honestly don't see any sort of a biased delusion creeping into that statement? If not, there's truly nothing I can say, since your perception of Kumagawa's growth is so laughably misguided.
Here is revealed the basis of all your mistaken assumptions about Kumagawa. There is no reason why Kumagawa's success in winning Medaka romantically has to equate with a softening of his character. Rather, my point on several occasions earlier has been precisely that it is Kumagawa's unchanged personality (selfish, ambitious, and challenging) which would be good for Medaka's development. In fact, Kumagawa's reformation has already lead him to be softened, winning frequently against enemies in his role as a 'protector' of the weak, leaving a significant proportion of his current panel time now presenting him as an ally to other characters acting out of duty or empathy.

Medaka's existence as a personality who generally exists far beyond the need of help from others presents an opportunity for Kumagawa to bring out his true personality. Namely, his challenging, ambitious, offense-oriented, desire-to-drag-down-others tendency. In fact, Medaka's existence as close to the only person who could withstand Kumagawa's degenerating personality, gives him the freedom to unleash as much as he wants of it. Simultaneously, according to Medaka's present weakness of being too deep down dependent on others, it is precisely Kumagawa's constant ability to challenge or drag down others which would encourage her to develop and strengthen her individuality.

Understand: Kumagawa's final change in development was never meant to be about becoming 'softer' or more selfless. The actual endpoint of his character arc is about him regaining the selfishness and ambition of his original personality, the part which thirsted for his own sake for victory. Kumagawa's ultimate victory will be about finally fully overcoming his despair towards being able to achieve personal victory, a despair which was only superficially replaced and buried by the 'good guy' role of helping others he gained after his loss to Medaka.

Accordingly, from this current point, Nishio going as far as to put Kumagawa and Medaka together would be equal to brilliant writing. I have never said this out of any shipping fanboyism (I like Kumagawa and Medaka individually; there has never been any personal need to see them put together). The conclusion that Kumagawa x Medaka should and has a reasonable chance to happen has always been the result of a simple, logical analysis of their characters.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-18 at 20:10.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 20:40   Link #12904
Lupus753
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Reading these two argue and engage in a condescending-off is hurting my brain. Now I'm not sure what I believe anymore.
Lupus753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 21:19   Link #12905
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The only difference in our positions thus far is that you actually seem to prefer to believe in the persistence of these narrative failures, as opposed to considering the actual possibility that Nishio will correct them credibly. You insist that these narrative failures must be or become a constant in the story, as opposed to developing in a way which would lead to a coherent outcome.
Actually I don't at all, since I've continuously stated my expectations that Zenkichi and Medaka will, in fact, mature, thus providing Nisio the opportunity to correct the "narrative failures" in a credible manner. You simply disagree with my expectations of where said maturity will eventually lead them. As such, I'm expecting him to conclude Zenkichi and Medaka's arc with a romantic resolution that is more realistic and believable than the one they currently possess, which, though too simplistic and partially flawed, has a considerable chance to mature and evolve throughout this arc. That is the core of my argument, and you haven't presented an objective alternative, so it's rather pointless to continuously retread familiar and well-stated ground.

Quote:
Understand: Kumagawa's final change in development was never meant to be about becoming 'softer' or more selfless. The actual endpoint of his character arc is about him regaining the selfishness and ambition of his original personality, the part which thirsted for his own sake for victory. Kumagawa's ultimate victory will be about finally fully overcoming his despair towards being able to achieve personal victory, a despair which was only superficially replaced and buried by the 'good guy' role of helping others he gained after his loss to Medaka.
Once again, the 185th chapter heavily contradicts your assertions about Kumagawa's ultimate victory.

Quote:
Accordingly, from this current point, Nishio going as far as to put Kumagawa and Medaka together would be equal to brilliant writing. I have never said this out of any shipping fanboyism (I like Kumagawa and Medaka individually; there has never been any personal need to see them put together). The conclusion that Kumagawa x Medaka should and has a reasonable chance to happen has always been the result of a simple, logical analysis of their characters.
That is ridiculously delusional, the bolded in particular, which is a far worse example of a literary travesty than any development that has previously occurred for Kumagawa's character.

...

I'd respond to the rest, but we're going around in circles and you seem particularly determined to refrain from acknowledging any of the legitimate points I've made that, at the very least, contradict the "objectivity" you so arrogantly claim can solely be found in your interpretations of previous events. It's just an exercise in futility at this point, particularly in regards to your perception of Kumagawa's entire character, and, let's face it, this argument has been driven into the ground.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 21:40   Link #12906
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
...seem particularly determined to refrain from acknowledging any of the legitimate points I've made that, at the very least, contradict the "objectivity" you so arrogantly claim can solely be found in your interpretations of previous events.
Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 21:45   Link #12907
KleenexGhost
Measure Feeling Match
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sunriseland
...Sooooo, anyone else hoping that nature of 'The End' will be explored anytime soon?
__________________
"Do not pretend. Retribution for forgiveness, betrayal for trust, despair for hope, darkness for light, dark death for the living." - Kirei Kotomine
KleenexGhost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-18, 22:05   Link #12908
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
...Sooooo, anyone else hoping that nature of 'The End' will be explored anytime soon?
The beginning of this arc seems to have established that possibility, though I'd greatly prefer a focus on Zenkichi's development, rather than hers. On the likelihood that it does focus largely on her though, that would definitely be the most compelling direction for the story to take.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 03:36   Link #12909
Tenchi Hou Take
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.
TBF this is a case of pot calling the kettle black, neither of you actually directly do it, so it's not actually a reason so you to say this, since you don't actually directly quote anything with quotation marks and with most arguments it comes down to interpretations. It comes off as hypocritical in all honestly.
Tenchi Hou Take is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 04:18   Link #12910
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF this is a case of pot calling the kettle black, neither of you actually directly do it, so it's not actually a reason so you to say this, since you don't actually directly quote anything with quotation marks and with most arguments it comes down to interpretations. It comes off as hypocritical in all honestly.
A petty misinterpretation by someone not even involved with the conversation. I consistently identified arcs, scenes, and chapter numbers. Any 'interpretations' could be directly argued via reference to the source material. zigantz offered all of one scene to argue as a reference, without even being able to justify why his interpretation might be important to Medaka's character. His entire argument was based on the legitimacy of subjective, indemonstrable observations.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 05:28   Link #12911
DawnEmperor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
Evidence is constantly being interpreted differently, so I think this is the reason why we're having such a disconnect here. What is considered "demonstrably proven" isn't quite universal, and that's precisely why we have these discussions.

Sol I respect your analyses but there is an air of arrogance to them(like evidence "obviously" or "logically" leads to this). Medaka Box has been a subject of interpretation and while I wouldn't want to discourage objective interpretation per se, on the other hand claiming to do that does carry that responsibility and stigma. I don't want to drag him into the discussion but Wolfenstein has a habit of doing this too(In my opinion....but my opinion happens to be shared by a bunch of people).

For example in the election, some may interpret Medaka's defeat as confirmation that she was completely wrong, but Zenkichi states that it's more about Medaka reaffirming her priorities and discovering more things. But if in her journey, "if she comes to the same conclusion that she was born to help others, then that's alright too". Medaka was misguided in that she was mainly following a two year old's offhand phrase, but that doesn't necessarily make the act wrong.

I think part of the problem is that we're convinced that there's a specific way for characters to progress(either on textual or personal reasons). Perhaps it's because I'm resigned to it, but I'm not opposed to Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship much anymore, and I think development can come more from redefining it rather than completely separation. Yes this recent chapter could mean they're splitting up for good, or it can mean that they're pursuing their own dreams without necessarily breaking off their relationship.

As for Kumagawa and the open idea of having a relationship, I'm honestly not sure what that would bring(or what the point would be). Is it because he's a more "worthy partner"? Also the interpretation of Kumagawa becoming more selfish to obtain victory, I'm not sure what you mean, wouldn't that be somewhat of a regression? While I can recall the beginning of the Shiranui Arc that Medaka questioned whether he lost his edge for victory, I can also think of the Naked Apron Alliance, which while I did not side with still had the intention of making everyone happy. So his victory becomes less of "I have a completely selfish, unfettered, but relatable determination to defeat the protagonists, to making people happy through his warped ways and myself as well. Kumagawa may not have achieved a victory during that arc, but he still became a lot happier.

Or perhaps it's something that doesn't have to mutually exclusive. His victory over Medaka in 185 was something which both seemed pretty triumphant over. His drive hasn't changed, but perhaps he's tempered it to something different.

Last edited by DawnEmperor; 2013-03-19 at 07:33.
DawnEmperor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 07:32   Link #12912
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
You know, it's funny to see Sol try to convince people that he's not this hypocritically arrogant guy who equates his interpretation to "Nisio’s literary self-worth", when all his efforts just result in the exact opposite.

At least learn something from Zigs; he outright stated that he's giving you one of innumerable possible interpretations of this manga, in contrast to equating your own to the "end-all, be-all" of Medaka Box-related opinions.
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 08:24   Link #12913
Tenchi Hou Take
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.
No you don't at least not in the argument with that guy, hence hypocritical. This is factually proven through reading your posts in said argument. Count the number of direct (I mean word for word) quotation marks and chapter number references. And yet you’re moaning about the other dude. I don't know if you've actually done any high level essay righting (say university level), but your complaints in regard to him aren't valid in comparison to your own reference. The vast majority of your arguments aren't evidenced by quotations, or proper referencing. You have a few near the start which has little bearing on the argument about the interpreation of those phrases and the rest is self-interpretation.

So seriously don't throw stones in glass houses. You didn't use further referencing as evidence to prove your argument, you simply made an interpretation of some initial quotes at the beginning without evidencing your interpretation of said quotes with more evidence.

It's like quoting "fire is warm", and making an arguement about how fire represents hell without furthering referencing that would imply fire represents hell.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-19 at 08:40.
Tenchi Hou Take is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 12:17   Link #12914
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Evidence is constantly being interpreted differently, so I think this is the reason why we're having such a disconnect here. What is considered "demonstrably proven" isn't quite universal, and that's precisely why we have these discussions.

Sol I respect your analyses but there is an air of arrogance to them(like evidence "obviously" or "logically" leads to this). Medaka Box has been a subject of interpretation and while I wouldn't want to discourage objective interpretation per se, on the other hand claiming to do that does carry that responsibility and stigma.

For example in the election, some may interpret Medaka's defeat as confirmation that she was completely wrong, but Zenkichi states that it's more about Medaka reaffirming her priorities and discovering more things. But if in her journey, "if she comes to the same conclusion that she was born to help others, then that's alright too". Medaka was misguided in that she was mainly following a two year old's offhand phrase, but that doesn't necessarily make the act wrong.
As I have frequently said, I am completely open to alternative interpretations based on direct examination of the source material (i.e. objective evidence). Unfortunately, what I managed to get out of zigantz were only alternative interpretations based on 'expectations'.

Your example is fine, but that doesn't mean there's really any ambiguity. Like you said, what was wrong about Medaka's former goal was her personal approach to it, not necessarily the goal itself or even the outcome of her previous actions. If there was left any ambiguity in my claims as related to Medaka's character or motivations, anybody could (and still can) bring them up specifically.

Quote:
I think part of the problem is that we're convinced that there's a specific way for characters to progress(either on textual or personal reasons). Perhaps it's because I'm resigned to it, but I'm not opposed to Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship much anymore, and I think development can come more from redefining it rather than completely separation. Yes this recent chapter could mean they're splitting up for good, or it can mean that they're pursuing their own dreams without necessarily breaking off their relationship.
I will say this on the subject. While it of course remains a possibility that Medaka and Zenkichi could get back together in the future, as of the present moment there exists no basis for that within their current relationship. A 'redefined' Medaka x Zenkichi relationship would have to be completely divorced from anything which has supported them through to their current moment in history. The entirety of the aspects which previously tied them together have been dismantled by the most recent development. Nishio would basically be starting over from scratch as far as character development is concerned. Considering that the issue of Medaka's character development completely flies over most Zenkichi or Zenkichi x Medaka fans' heads in the first place, one has to wonder why Nishio would even bother.

Quote:
As for Kumagawa and the open idea of having a relationship, I'm honestly not sure what that would bring(or what the point would be). Is it because he's a more "worthy partner"? Also the interpretation of Kumagawa becoming more selfish to obtain victory, I'm not sure what you mean, wouldn't that be somewhat of a regression? While I can recall the beginning of the Shiranui Arc that Medaka questioned whether he lost his edge for victory, I can also think of the Naked Apron Alliance, which while I did not side with still had the intention of making everyone happy. So his victory becomes less of "I have a completely selfish, unfettered, but relatable determination to defeat the protagonists, to making people happy through his warped ways and myself as well. Kumagawa may not have achieved a victory during that arc, but he still became a lot happier.

Or perhaps it's something that doesn't have to mutually exclusive. His victory over Medaka in 185 was something which both seemed pretty triumphant over. His drive hasn't changed, but perhaps he's tempered it to something different.
Kumagawa's preferentiality over Zenkichi as far as the romance goes comes from two factors: the fact that Zenkichi's character arc is about getting over Medaka, and the fact that Kumagawa has a persistent and reasonably meaningful interest in her. Then there's the factor of Kumagawa's personality being well-suited to Medaka's character development. These are the major justifications.

With regards to Kumagawa's selfishness, it's not a regression if Kumagawa actually wins. As you mentioned during the Not Equals arc Kumagawa acted purely for the sake of others via the Naked Apron Alliance--this is precisely the 'lost edge' Medaka was talking about. However, why do you think Kumagawa became a 'selfless' ally of others in the first place? In the end it was because he was still in despair over obtaining his personal victory, and merely satisfied/distracted himself with the happiness of others. Though Kumagawa showed and gained a lot of happiness throughout the Treasure Hunt arc and later with Tachiarai from the Election Management Committee, if you recall from the battle with the Beautification Committee chairwoman all of that was a mere surface satisfaction when in reality Kumagawa was still "drowning below the surface".

Certainly, Kumagawa's ability to find happiness through fighting for others was a positive development for him. It's what granted him any hope after his reformation at all. However, a normal human cannot ultimately live simply fighting for others, let alone a Minus. Kumagawa's insistence through his battles that he still couldn't win, as well as Ajimu's assurance to Kumagawa that he could win, were all about the restoration of his personal ambitions (although they certainly can reside side-by-side with Kumagawa's capacity to fight for others).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
No you don't at least not in the argument with that guy, hence hypocritical. This is factually proven through reading your posts in said argument. Count the number of direct (I mean word for word) quotation marks and chapter number references. And yet you’re moaning about the other dude. I don't know if you've actually done any high level essay righting (say university level), but your complaints in regard to him aren't valid in comparison to your own reference. The vast majority of your arguments aren't evidenced by quotations, or proper referencing. You have a few near the start which has little bearing on the argument about the interpreation of those phrases and the rest is self-interpretation.
Dude, get real. If you don't think my level of referencing the source material was enough, then bring up the specific points and ask for them. The fact is that my argument was based on examination of the source material while zigantz's was based on subjectivity, a rejection of objective analysis, and 'expectations'.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 12:28   Link #12915
Lupus753
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Best evidence I can think of? The cover to volume 18. QED.

... I'm not sure if I was joking.
Lupus753 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 12:33   Link #12916
willx
Nyaaan~~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 31
@Sol Falling --

Reviewed your verbage, disagree. Not moving somewhere to follow someone, finding and pursuing your own path and growing as a person does not necessarily mean your relationship is over. You can still be sad for the parting, sad for the life stage you are entering and sad that you won't share this stage of your life together -- but none of the aforementioned necessarily takes away from the feelings people have for each other, their shared experiences nor their desire to spend their lives together in the future.

I am not arguing that they are definitely still together, but simply stating that you believe your perspective is objective does not make it so, based on the premise set out by the written works we are both viewing I believe your presumption is more of a logical stretch than Zen x Medaka which is that status quo. Therefore the burden of proof is on your position and the threshold does not appear to have been met. I would add that you laboriously reference source material, but such references that you view as being derived from logical conclusions appear in fact to someone like me who is looking at all of this with fresh eyes to actually be logical stretches.

That all said, I am not here to pick on you, everyone that has gotten a tad heated from this discussion should take a step back and realize that you all look like: "Fiction relationships is seeeeerious business!!!!"
__________________
Nyaaaan~~
willx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 13:10   Link #12917
DawnEmperor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

I will say this on the subject. While it of course remains a possibility that Medaka and Zenkichi could get back together in the future, as of the present moment there exists no basis for that within their current relationship. A 'redefined' Medaka x Zenkichi relationship would have to be completely divorced from anything which has supported them through to their current moment in history. The entirety of the aspects which previously tied them together have been dismantled by the most recent development. Nishio would basically be starting over from scratch as far as character development is concerned. Considering that the issue of Medaka's character development completely flies over most Zenkichi or Zenkichi x Medaka fans' heads in the first place, one has to wonder why Nishio would even bother.
Why would Nishio bother with the challenge of redefining their relationship? I guess it may be a matter of them gradually realizing each other's strengths and weaknesses on a genuine level. It's less about emotional crutches and more about the people themselves.

Until we get more chapters, I'm not completely sure whether it's a true departure. It seems more to be an end to the "always following around" or always "catching up".



Quote:

Kumagawa's preferentiality over Zenkichi as far as the romance goes comes from two factors: the fact that Zenkichi's character arc is about getting over Medaka, and the fact that Kumagawa has a persistent and reasonably meaningful interest in her. Then there's the factor of Kumagawa's personality being well-suited to Medaka's character development. These are the major justifications.
Isn't Zenkichi's character arc about finding things more than Medaka? That doesn't necessarily mean discarding their relationship entirely. If they can tear down the foundation which they built their initial relationship, they can change things and build a new one. So I guess on this point I'm just not on the same page with you; I don't see why it warrants separation between Zenkichi and Medaka, and why this means Kumagawa and Medaka gravitate in a romantic relationship. In other words, "I can't follow you" Medaka doesn't necessarily mean =/= "we're done as a relationship".

If you wouldn't mind(I'm sure you might've stated it before), why does Medaka and Kumagawa interest you though? I can understand interest in them individually, and their relationship was a pretty big crux of the series, but getting together is something which I don't usually hear from fans of either character.

Obviously they have clear parallels as former archenemies; both are powerful enough to achieve a lot, but only one really consistently succeeds, or thinks they succeed. Sheer determination? I honestly am not understanding this being evidenced in the manga.


Quote:
With regards to Kumagawa's selfishness, it's not a regression if Kumagawa actually wins. As you mentioned during the Not Equals arc Kumagawa acted purely for the sake of others via the Naked Apron Alliance--this is precisely the 'lost edge' Medaka was talking about. However, why do you think Kumagawa became a 'selfless' ally of others in the first place? In the end it was because he was still in despair over obtaining his personal victory, and merely satisfied/distracted himself with the happiness of others. Though Kumagawa showed and gained a lot of happiness throughout the Treasure Hunt arc and later with Tachiarai from the Election Management Committee, if you recall from the battle with the Beautification Committee chairwoman all of that was a mere surface satisfaction when in reality Kumagawa was still "drowning below the surface".
Certainly, Kumagawa's ability to find happiness through fighting for others was a positive development for him. It's what granted him any hope after his reformation at all. However, a normal human cannot ultimately live simply fighting for others, let alone a Minus. Kumagawa's insistence through his battles that he still couldn't win, as well as Ajimu's assurance to Kumagawa that he could win, were all about the restoration of his personal ambitions (although they certainly can reside side-by-side with Kumagawa's capacity to fight for others).
I didn't say it was a regression if Kumagawa wins, I said that if he becomes more selfish to obtain victory(like that whole speech of 'I want to beat the main characters"), then that would be more regressive.

Well what is a normal human? Medaka of course has demonstrated many "inhuman" behaviors, but does our mindset merely have to change in order to fit how she acts?

Thinking back to a series like Kenshin, I recall that Kenshin's reason for fighting intially was as a death seeker, and that he had no will to live, only to help people. Only when he realized how many people cared about him did he realize truly how to atone.

So for me, I would agree that those ambitions would be side by side. In other words realizing that making people happy doesn't come at his expense. So if you're looking at this aspect of making people happy, i can somewhat see where you get the Medaka and Kumagawa relationship from. Somewhat.
DawnEmperor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 14:39   Link #12918
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
I am not arguing that they are definitely still together, but simply stating that you believe your perspective is objective does not make it so, based on the premise set out by the written works we are both viewing I believe your presumption is more of a logical stretch than Zen x Medaka which is that status quo. Therefore the burden of proof is on your position and the threshold does not appear to have been met. I would add that you laboriously reference source material, but such references that you view as being derived from logical conclusions appear in fact to someone like me who is looking at all of this with fresh eyes to actually be logical stretches.

That all said, I am not here to pick on you, everyone that has gotten a tad heated from this discussion should take a step back and realize that you all look like: "Fiction relationships is seeeeerious business!!!!"
The only part of my 'perspective' I have called objective is the fact that there is no current basis for Zen and Medaka to get back together. In terms of character development, the status quo has been destroyed.

The meta-narrative status quo of readers believing Medaka and Zenkichi will still end up together remains unchanged. That's fine, there's nothing yet directly contradicting it. My point thus far has only been that there is similarly zero in-story evidence supporting it. Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship is presently at a complete blank. Therefore them not getting back together is just as likely, and the only differentiating factor people can base their predictions on is whether they believe Nishio has any attachment to making the pairing happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
If you wouldn't mind(I'm sure you might've stated it before), why does Medaka and Kumagawa interest you though? I can understand interest in them individually, and their relationship was a pretty big crux of the series, but getting together is something which I don't usually hear from fans of either character.

Obviously they have clear parallels as former archenemies; both are powerful enough to achieve a lot, but only one really consistently succeeds, or thinks they succeed. Sheer determination? I honestly am not understanding this being evidenced in the manga.
My primary reason for rooting for Kumagawa x Medaka is due to Kumagawa's continually expressed interest in the relationship. As a fan of Kumagawa, I have no choice but to pay attention to one of the most recurrent aspects of his characterization.

There is a great deal of weight to Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka (and at times, Medaka's feelings for Kumagawa in return; their joy of finally arriving at the battle they had waited 300,000,000 years for remains one of the most memorable aspects for me of the climax of the Minus arc). Having lost to Medaka then, assimilated into the Student Council, being reduced to just another one of Medaka's endless friends/enemies, leaves those feelings unresolved. Initially you could have just assumed that Kumagawa buried them quietly, offscreen, embracing his new personality and forgetting that those developments in the Minus Arc ever happened. This was my initial attitude as well. However, the persistent resurfacing of Kumagawa's romantic emotions for Medaka show that this is not the case. In the end, nearly all (actually, pretty much all) of Kumagawa's moments of being 'real' (dropping the brackets) after the end of the Minus arc still have to do with Medaka (whether saying he would beat her, that she would return to him, or 'achieving' his first victory). So you can clearly see that Medaka was and still is necessary to the resolution of Kumagawa's arc.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-19 at 15:27.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 15:34   Link #12919
Tenchi Hou Take
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Dude, get real. If you don't think my level of referencing the source material was enough, then bring up the specific points and ask for them. The fact is that my argument was based on examination of the source material while zigantz's was based on subjectivity, a rejection of objective analysis, and 'expectations'.
Lol this whole thing started because started moaning at another guy that you won't argue his points because he didn't produce evidence to the degree you wanted.

Like I said don't throw stones in glass houses you came off as hypocritical, if you don't like people calling you out on your lack of referenced evidence don't do it to other people.

Spoiler for 187:
Tenchi Hou Take is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-19, 15:41   Link #12920
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Lol this whole thing started because started moaning at another guy that you won't argue his points because he didn't produce evidence to the degree you wanted.

Like I said don't throw stones in glass houses you came off as hypocritical, if you don't like people calling you out on your lack of referenced evidence don't do it to other people.
Alright, Tenchi, look. Here's an opportunity for us to engage in that 'factual, objective' discussion based on references I like so much. Can you prove, via citations, my lack of sufficiently referentiable evidence? Or can you not? Because I have certainly posted enough citations to show that zigantz' argument was not based on objectively referentiable evidence.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 30/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.