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Old 2013-03-19, 13:36   Link #4961
Ithekro
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The "last time" we see a fight between the sisters is was so close that it could be painful. Winning by basically a second due to tree slowing a round.

Maho, as far as we know, has never lost in a tank fight. The lose to Pravda last year seems to have been entirely placed on Miho's shoulders (probably by her mother). Little Army suggests that if Maho lost she would be disowned. And while there are somethings about being the older sister, the suggestion it gives is that she wants Miho to be free of their mother's style. So in some respects, she can't lose for her sister's sake. Else Miho would be placed as the heir and be under mother's glare. (Little Army also shows Maho acts differently when their mother isn't home. She's friendly without Shiho around/ When Shiho's around, Maho gets cold, serious, and perhaps detached.)

However Miho is being disinherited. If that goes through, she is free from Shiho and thus even if Maho loses, Miho can't be placed under Shiho's glare. Maho can be disowned, but then Shiho as no one of her family left to pass on the style, thus she can't disown Maho for losing is she knows Miho won't play it Shiho's style.


The largest problem at this point in the series is potentially Maho and Shiho are undercharacterized. Shiho's few reaction shots in this episode are kind of hard ot read, and Maho is still a mystery.
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:38   Link #4962
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well ... OK, fine ... I think Miho is reasonably likable, but I guess she can't be all things to all people.

Is there nobody among the 32 or so characters in Oarai that you liked? Remember that Miho's wishes are also those people's wishes. Oarai team has a common goal and extremely high cohesion...

Since KMM clearly aren't even being the better players, do you really mean to tell us that you are happy for KMM to win because they have Maus and Jadgtiger?
Oh, I don't hate Miho or anything, I feel mostly ambivalent towards her, albeit there are moments where weakness, uncertainty, and other traits make me despise her - and make me think that she's a useless waste of space.. but that's true for many characters. I absolutely hated Shinji from Evangelion for example. He absolutely ruined the entire series for me. I hate weak, whiny and indecisive characters .. heck, I hate those people in real life. No ounce of pity.

The things I do like about the Oorai team is what you mentioned, camaraderie and trust, the willingness to sacrifice oneself and all that good stuff. The fact that they have so much screen time just goofing about being girls also helps the viewer build a bond with them.

So with that said, let me respond to your question with my own question: Have they shed the blood, tears, sweat and otherwise shown such creativity, ingenuity and brilliance in this journey to convince you that they deserve to triumph over a Maus and a Jagdtiger?

This story reminds me of a comical but touching movie from the 90s called Cool Runnings -- it was apparently based on a true story. Due to an accident, one guy loses his chance to compete in the summer olympics, but finds several like minded guys with dreams and hopes .. and founds a Jamaican Bobsled team to compete in the Winter Olympics! See the synopsis.

Spoiler for Jamaican Bobsled Team:
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:39   Link #4963
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it basically saying how impossible is this scene IRL

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Old 2013-03-19, 13:39   Link #4964
Tak
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
I think no one dislike Maho.

The "Hate" is more on Shiho, Erika and the name "Black forest"
Personality-wise, Shiho is just made to be disliked. Erike on the other hand, is an evil version of Yukari who siphons the fame of Maho. Though I bear no ill whatsoever towards Black Forest, especially seeing as one of its crews was appreciative enough to thank Miho for what she has done.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:43   Link #4965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Maho has been unfairly vilified due to her position as captain of an undefeated school, but deep down inside, I think we all know she cared for Miho, she just can't outright display it.
I know that, but considering she is Miho's sister, this just moves her in the "human" category.

Quote:
Even if you think she does not deserve a win, you will have to at least put yourself in her shoes, understand her difficulties and appreciate her for what she is trying to do.
Hypotheses aside, in canon the best she was shown to be doing is not being an extra beating stick on Miho.

Quote:
That being said though, I think, like RX pointed out, Maho is putting on an act to perform a good show. Nonetheless, I don't think she is the losing type. She will probably create a scenario where she can go against her sister, alone and at least give Miho somewhat of a fair chance.

Will she purposely lose at the end? I don't know, but stay tuned.
Quite frankly, I don't think the set up so far gives Maho the reserve to pull anything like that. As Ithekro reminds us - when she was in middle school, Maho almost managed to lose to Miho and a bunch of primary schoolers. The show seems to systematically tell us Maho is thought to be good, but show us (even to the point of making some aspects of the show a joke) that Maho is probably being over-rated.

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Personality-wise, Shiho is just made to be disliked. Erike on the other hand, is an evil version of Yukari who siphons the fame of Maho. Though I bear no ill whatsoever towards Black Forest, especially seeing as one of its crews was appreciative enough to thank Miho for what she has done. - Tak
Yeah. ONE. Out of 5 in the tank crew. Do we see a problem?
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:45   Link #4966
Ithekro
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Low gravity planet (not Earth). It would explain why the Maus isn't breaking the street and why some of the tanks flip and float so nicely in combat.

Also the absurd size of their school-carriers
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:46   Link #4967
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yeah. ONE. Out of 5 in the tank crew. Do we see a problem?
Well, what do you expect, every single crew of that tank to show up and give Miho a high-five?

What about Oorai's student council? They have been a jerk collective for the past 11 episodes and where is their punishment?

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:48   Link #4968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post

What about Oorai's student council? They have been a jerk collective for the past 11 episodes and where is their punishment?

- Tak
I think they stop being jerks around... the 2nd episode or so. Giving every opportunity to thank Miho for her actions, inviting her for dinner, and even joining in on Ankou Team's punishment I think would warrant them not having the "jerks" label.
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:52   Link #4969
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
I think they stop being jerks around... the 2nd episode or so. Giving every opportunity to thank Miho for her actions, inviting her for dinner, and even joining in on Ankou Team's punishment I think would warrant them not having the "jerks" label.
I always treat the Student Council as forming an alliance with Miho out of necessity.

Of course, thats my personal take.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:01   Link #4970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I always treat the Student Council as forming an alliance with Miho out of necessity.

Of course, thats my personal take.

- Tak
But that is essentially what they did: they roped Miho into Senshado because they wanted someone experienced in the sport so they can save the school.

Their method of coercing Miho into joining Senshado was the only thing that can be described as "Jerkish" from the student council, and most of that was from Anzu. Anzu herself however has never done anything like that since then, and as I mentioned above has actually been quite good to Miho most of the time, even deferring to Miho's judgments on Senshado, and personally thanking her multiple times.

Episode 1 undoubtedly has Anzu being a jerk. But through 11 episodes? I think not.
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:04   Link #4971
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
But that is essentially what they did: they roped Miho into Senshado because they wanted someone experienced in the sport so they can save the school.

Their method of coercing Miho into joining Senshado was the only thing that can be described as "Jerkish" from the student council, and most of that was from Anzu. Anzu herself however has never done anything like that since then, and as I mentioned above has actually been quite good to Miho most of the time, even deferring to Miho's judgments on Senshado, and personally thanking her multiple times.

Episode 1 undoubtedly has Anzu being a jerk. But through 11 episodes? I think not.
I'll have to go back and watch it again, but I believe it went on for more than one episode. I also recall it going "back and forth" something like ..

"Oh, we're coercing you into doing Senshado" (-)
"Oh, by the way, if you don't win then you have to do the Anko dance!" (-)
"Oh, we tricked you, we'll also take the Anko dance punishment with you!" (+)
"Oh, by the way, if you don't win the school is going to get shutdown, SO YOU HAVE TO WIN! PRESSURE PRESSURE PRESSURE!" (-)

Perhaps I'm less of a forgive and forget person than you guys are .. or maybe I'm more vindictive. My response to any and all threats is absolute force and ultimate destruction. Imprint fear into their very bones!
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:06   Link #4972
Tak
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Episode 1 undoubtedly has Anzu being a jerk. But through 11 episodes? I think not.
I am essentially comparing the student council to the KMM crews arkhangelsk was referring to. At least one of the KMM crews came back and thanked Miho, whereas none of the student council never apologized to Miho about being a jerk. Yes, they eventually conceded to let Miho command the team, yes, they invited her to dinner, but they were all necessary actions to retain the school's operation. Nonetheless, not one of the members from the student council ever apologized to Miho for being a jerk.

Certainly, we can agree that they eventually ceased to be jerks, but they didn't apologize for it, either.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:07   Link #4973
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Oh, I don't hate Miho or anything, I feel mostly ambivalent towards her, albeit there are moments where weakness, uncertainty, and other traits make me despise her - and make me think that she's a useless waste of space.. but that's true for many characters. I absolutely hated Shinji from Evangelion for example. He absolutely ruined the entire series for me. I hate weak, whiny and indecisive characters .. heck, I hate those people in real life. No ounce of pity.
You don't hate, just despise. You like decisive characters. I think the show would be substantially less interesting if Miho was such a character, but to each his own.

Quote:
So with that said, let me respond to your question with my own question: Have they shed the blood, tears, sweat and otherwise shown such creativity, ingenuity and brilliance in this journey to convince you that they deserve to triumph over a Maus and a Jagdtiger?
Being a 12-episode show, obviously it was impossible to track down every minute of them training and still show their character development. Nevertheless, it is shown they do train, and in Ep7 it is shown they do do more than the minimum even before they figure the school was going to go down if they don't win.

Even in Ep4, sorry though their performance was, in the ambush they actually managed to get at least as many hits on the supposedly veteran St. Glorianna than they took in return. You just don't notice them because the Matildas have thick armor and Oarai's guns are weak...

Even as early as Ep5, you may note that Miho was able to send out the freshmen and volleyball teams out on independent recon work while Alice in Saunders still has to vector people. So even at that early point they are showing a higher level of independence (and it takes competence to be independent in a useful way) than many teams we see. You might also notice that by then they can smoothly switch formations.

By Ep11, who is the better team is undeniably clear. Do you really need to see their work-up plans, marks for various exercises and various other documentation before you agree that they clearly worked harder and better than other teams?

Besides, effort is relative, and if you consider Oarai's efforts inadequate, look at KMM's skill indices (among other things their 18 effective guns were apparently being outshot by Oarai's 3 effective guns, leading to Maho's belated decision to move up a blocker and fire drawer). Add how much more time they had to train than Oarai's thrown together team. Estimate backwards towards how little time they must have spent training to achieve such low proficiencies. Does such a team deserve a win no matter what equipment they have?

Even if you say "I'm sorry. I can see that Oarai's team is just brilliant while KMM truly sucks but I just don't see how they can win", that is different from being "happy" if KMM wins, or that KMM "deserves" to win, or to be "unhappy" if Oarai manages to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Well, what do you expect, every single crew of that tank to show up and give Miho a high-five?

What about Oorai's student council? They have been a jerk collective for the past 11 episodes and where is their punishment?
They could have at least have done that scene together, since the whole team was present.

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Originally Posted by willx View Post
I'll have to go back and watch it again, but I believe it went on for more than one episode. I also recall it going "back and forth" something like ..

"Oh, we're coercing you into doing Senshado" (-)
Let me take an apologist stance:
Oh come on, that was necessary and the benefit of 30,000 people exceed one. Besides, Miho was quickly game to the new situation. Maybe they realized that Miho just needed a little pressure to "get back on the horse". Miho was much better for it, let's not forget. If she actually joined "Incense Ceremony", she would be that old ditzy self and never regain true happiness.

Quote:
"Oh, by the way, if you don't win then you have to do the Anko dance!" (-)
Well, surely this is still in the fun and games category. And as you said, they did join in in the end.

Quote:
"Oh, by the way, if you don't win the school is going to get shutdown, SO YOU HAVE TO WIN! PRESSURE PRESSURE PRESSURE!" (-)
Yeah, what could they do? They had been trying to keep it quiet, but Miho has to spray cold water, leaving them with no choice.
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:11   Link #4974
Ithekro
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They seem to keep the knowedge of "if we lose, the school closes down" to themselves. It nearly slipped a few times, but they kept it hidden. It is assumed they didn't want to put that pressure on Miho, but once it looked like she'd just give up because "there is always next year", Momo let the cat out of the bag because "there is no next year".

The "if you fail you have to do the dance" I think was Anzu messing around. That or she wanted an excuse to do the dance herself, as she seemed to be the only one really enjoying herself.


(To confirm, you can clearly hear a shell from the Type 89 hit the Churchill VII on the retreat. But, well, the Type 89's gun wouldn't penetrate any of the teams tanks they've run into save Anzio's tankettes and maybe the Panzer III.)
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:13   Link #4975
willx
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^ Er? I said "there are moments where .. despise" ?? Sorry? I can't momentarily think things?

And my simple point is:

1) Let's say you want to be an F1 driver and win the Grand Prix. You train adequate and reasonable amounts. You get lucky and some minor sponsors give you a car to work with. You have mechanics chip in to help you out. Yay!

2) So, do you deserve to beat the best formula one team in existence that has the best equipment? Even if they're portrayed as being lax?

On top of that -- you claim Oorai is brilliant .. wow. Really? No, just no. That aside, let's put this into a logical argument perspective, from my perspective my premise is I haven't seen enough to make me think the status quo should be overturned. The burden of proof, from my perspective, is on Oorai. That's the difference. Prove the status quo should be overturned.
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:30   Link #4976
Tak
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They could have at least have done that scene together, since the whole team was present.
And maybe the one who came back to thank Miho was chosen to represent the entire team? I don't understand why they must match your expectations in their methods.

Furthermore, I think you are trying too hard to vilify KMM.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:42   Link #4977
Ithekro
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These sort of stories is were you have the scrub team that need to win to get the money to save their school verse the champion team that is overconfident, smug, and using absurd amounts of equipment to cover the areas they are lacking in skills.

Those stories end in one of two ways in America: The scrub teams wins the impossible win because the overconfident team was stupid.

Or, the scrub team loses putting up the good fight because the overconfident team was still serious, but because they scrub team put up a good fight, their wish was still granted and the now less overconfident team looks forward to seeing them next year.

The problem in Girls und Panzers is that the overconfident team with the aburdly overpowered gear is Black Forest Peak...the ones that lost last year to Pravda, who Ooarai has beaten (barely). Black Forest Peak comes off as half overconfident, and half serious (the contrast between Erika and Maho) and has the "heartless coach" type as presented by Shiho throwing the mix off so much that the two standard American endings fo this kind of story don't fit.

They are definately too ridged in their doctrine as they can't handle "special tactics" efficently.

It is possible that most of Black Forest Peak's good tankers graduated and they have a lot of freshmen tankers. It is also possible that they have gone the route of "overpower the enemy" since losing to Pravda and then changed tactics, but trained too hard for these formation tactics that they didn't cover how they use to do things. Or they've always been formation, overwhelming firepower tactics. But that doesn't explain way Miho's flag Tiger tank was being escorted by two Panzer IIIs in the Finals last year. Especially when this year Maho's flag Tiger is in the main formation and nearly in the front most of the time. Something changed. (We still don't know what Erika nor Maho was doing in the Finals against Pravda)

It is possible that the lose changed Black Forest's tactics and tanks used (as Miho's intel was at least partly wrong), or perhaps it was Miho training them last year and Erika training them this year (Vice Commanders both), thus adding to Erika's grind about crushing Miho's "heresy".

As for how this will end? I don't know. The signs point to Ooarai victory, but Maus + 15 late war German tanks says that is unlikely (Panzer III could be a factor, but unknown). Do we know what tank Miho's former crewmates are in?
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:49   Link #4978
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I am essentially comparing the student council to the KMM crews arkhangelsk was referring to. At least one of the KMM crews came back and thanked Miho, whereas none of the student council never apologized to Miho about being a jerk. Yes, they eventually conceded to let Miho command the team, yes, they invited her to dinner, but they were all necessary actions to retain the school's operation. Nonetheless, not one of the members from the student council ever apologized to Miho for being a jerk.
I'm wondering how inviting Miho to dinner counts as "necessary actions to retain the school's operation". They never even talked about their true reason for making Miho join Senshado - which was the reason they invited her up in the first place - and just reminisced about their school memories with Miho. For Miho it amounted to nothing more than a free meal and finding out some things about the student council, but certainly not anything that would be essential to keeping the school running.

Quote:
Certainly, we can agree that they eventually ceased to be jerks, but they didn't apologize for it, either.

- Tak
That doesn't make them "jerks for 11 episodes" as you claimed though. It's true they never apologized for episode 1, but they did reveal their true intentions and the reason behind them eventually, and not once had they acted like jerks for the previous 10 episodes.
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:52   Link #4979
Ithekro
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They did apologies for keeping the knowledge of the school closure a secret. And thanked Miho before they did their run against Pravda. Also Anzu got serious for the first time in the series.
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Old 2013-03-19, 14:55   Link #4980
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Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Being the [redacted] that I am, I'm going to ask for a source (nothing against you! )

Related to the image and its construction, my inner skeptic tells me that someone somewhere has too much time on their hands and are being excessively nit-picky, with the irony being that the image is poorly composed and thus, will very likely have errors. Finally, for reference, the world record is Mike Powell's 8.95m in 1991, and most students of Miho's age can average around 5.4 metres in long jump, so even if the image were to be off, it'd be possible anyways ಠ_ಠ
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