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Old 2013-03-19, 15:41   Link #12921
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The only part of my 'perspective' I have called objective is the fact that there is no current basis for Zen and Medaka to get back together. In terms of character development, the status quo has been destroyed.
That is precisely the part I'm saying you are not being objective. You start from the presumption they are either 1) no longer together or 2) will no longer be together. That is not yet clear -- therefore for the status quo to be overturned, the burden of proof generally needs to be overwhelming, which in this case thus far it is not.
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Old 2013-03-19, 15:46   Link #12922
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Alright, Tenchi, look. Here's an opportunity for us to engage in that 'factual, objective' discussion based on references I like so much. Can you prove, via citations, my lack of sufficiently referentiable evidence? Or can you not? Because I have certainly posted enough citations to show that zigantz' argument was not based on objectively referentiable evidence.
This is pointless you know this I know this, I'm not going to waste my time picking through each of your posts for your arguement with another person. It's a waste of time and it won't alter your opinion on anything.

I will say this though look at your posts in the page before last (they are quite long). Now count how many directly referenced quotations to the story in discussion were included in those post. Yeah...
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Old 2013-03-19, 15:52   Link #12923
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
That is precisely the part I'm saying you are not being objective. You start from the presumption they are either 1) no longer together or 2) will no longer be together. That is not yet clear -- therefore for the status quo to be overturned, the burden of proof generally needs to be overwhelming, which in this case thus far it is not.
That's not the presumption, that's the conclusion. Go read through the discussion again, both myself and zigantz managed to agree on the fact that Zenkichi's devotion and Medaka's emotional dependency were the only factors which constituted any observable depth to their relationship. Now that Zenkichi's devotion has evaporated, we're at an end to their present relationship; a development which was amply illustrated by Medaka's dramatic "goodbye". Do you want to argue this logically? Go get your evidence.
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Old 2013-03-19, 15:58   Link #12924
willx
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
That's not the presumption, that's the conclusion. Go read through the discussion again, both myself and zigantz managed to agree on the fact that Zenkichi's devotion and Medaka's emotional dependency were the only factors which constituted any observable depth to their relationship. Now that Zenkichi's devotion has evaporated, we're at an end to their present relationship; a development which was amply illustrated by Medaka's dramatic "goodbye". Do you want to argue this logically? Go get your evidence.
Sorry, are you guys aware how logic and reasoning work? You both agreed on your presumption -- therefore you both accepted it as "fact" and therefore "objective"

From a 3rd party perspective, purely looking at the source material, that may or may not necessarily be the case. Therefore as I said previously, the burden of proof, is on you -- that the status quo (as I stated previously) be overturned. And the funny thing is? You can't prove it yet -- why not? Because with only one or two chapters available since her return there is actually no empirical evidence. It is all conjecture at this point. It is abundantly clear therefore that you are not being objective.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:08   Link #12925
ccie20012
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the impression that the parties read the first manga in the romantic genre.
or anyone has doubts that Nishino will come exactly the same way as the other authors. as is usual in this genre.
in the romantic genre of the main characters are always a threat to break, a temporary misunderstanding, local drama and the like.
this is a typical method. but it never leads to "real" break. especially since there is no alternative - no two equal female protagonists who fight for Zen. Such as in kokoro connect. the main characters - exactly 2 - Medaka and Zen.
obvious that Nishino just need to release new chapter.
all quite banal.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:22   Link #12926
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Sorry, are you guys aware how logic and reasoning work? You both agreed on your presumption -- therefore you both accepted it as "fact" and therefore "objective"

From a 3rd party perspective, purely looking at the source material, that may or may not necessarily be the case. Therefore as I said previously, the burden of proof, is on you -- that the status quo (as I stated previously) be overturned. And the funny thing is? You can't prove it yet -- why not? Because with only one or two chapters available since her return there is actually no empirical evidence. It is all conjecture at this point. It is abundantly clear therefore that you are not being objective.
You cannot prove a negative. I have already gone to considerable depth through my conversation with Zigantz to demonstrate Medaka's emotional dependency on Zenkichi. Now the question is: are there any other observable, justifiable motivations we can identify for Medaka to have a (meaningful) continued interest in Zenkichi? This should be an easily answerable question if there are actually other alternatives. So tell me, from a 3rd party perspective purely looking at the source material, is there anything which might be an observable alternative?

Also, have you actually read the latest chapter? What exactly are you talking about, as far as being one or two chapters from Medaka's return being relevant? We are talking about the results and implications of Zenkichi growing out of his devotion to Medaka, as well as the dramatic goodbye from Medaka which followed. It has not even been one chapter since that happened.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:27   Link #12927
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You cannot prove a negative. I have already gone to considerable depth through my conversation with Zigantz to demonstrate Medaka's emotional dependency on Zenkichi.
Yeah, we're talking past each other --

I am not trying to prove anything. I am simply stating that as of the latest chapter of Medaka Box, it is currently unclear whether Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship is actually over. That's all I'm saying. I'm not making any presumptions or assumptions or analysis of what is going on in their heads. None of it.

I said there have been two chapters "since she's been back" -- the last chapter and the one before it when she returned. Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. My point is you don't seem to see that with the very basis that you start with an analysis on the emotional bonds of their relationship and conclude therefore that it has been severed, you are the one that is making an assumption, not me. Therefore what is your assumption based upon? Your own interpretation of the narrative thus far and one chapter of material. You are the one talking about Zenkichi growing out of his devotion to Medaka. You then add that to "their relationship is over" to move onto your other conclusions.

I'm absolutely shocked and floored that you can't understand you're not being objective.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:43   Link #12928
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Spoiler for 187:
Spoiler for 187:
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:45   Link #12929
Kaisos Erranon
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Yet another fandom torn apart by shipping wars.
This is a good sign that there is now nothing else worth talking about.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:49   Link #12930
willx
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yet another fandom torn apart by shipping wars.
This is a good sign that there is now nothing else worth talking about.
Y'know, this is partially my fault, I shouldn't have entered into the discussion considering I don't really follow this manga for the relationships at all. My entry inevitably prolonged the discussion more than necessary. I sort of follow the story as it is an outlet for Nisio's absolute nonsense and whatever he wants to write.. Reminds me when I was a kid and I used to tell my younger cousins stories I would make up on the fly ..

I'm not sure what I intended to accomplish considering my whole purpose was to arrive to tell Sol Falling he was not being objective. Even if I'm right, it's not realistic of me to except he'll accept it.
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Old 2013-03-19, 16:49   Link #12931
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
I'm absolutely shocked and floored that you can't understand you're not being objective.
And you seem to be fundamentally missing something either about the series or the recent discussion. I'll ask you again, what exactly does the time since Medaka's return have to do with anything? Nothing has changed about Medaka or Zenkichi's relationship due to her absence. It's completely irrelevent. Do you want to talk about Medaka's absence for some reason? Then the burden of proof is on you.

Meanwhile, what myself and zigantz, the individuals whose conversation you claim to be commenting on, were talking about was Zenkichi's maturation from his devotion to Medaka and the possible repercussions of it. Do you think it's impossible to talk about that objectively? Do you not even understand that Zenkichi getting over his complete devotion to Medaka has objectively happened? As it is an event which has been illustrated in the source material, we can fully talk about the objective implications of it.

Did you want to make the claim that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship as of the last chapter cannot objectively be over? Then that needs to be based on objective evidence. Saying that it's impossible to make conclusions about Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship presently is basically saying that it's impossible to make any form of objective conjecture at all, and that the only thing people are allowed to make is objective observations. You're basically saying that logic doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
I'm not sure what I intended to accomplish considering my whole purpose was to arrive to tell Sol Falling he was not being objective. Even if I'm right, it's not realistic of me to except he'll accept it.
I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish either. You seem to have completely missed the entire purpose of our former discussion.
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:05   Link #12932
willx
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^ Yeah, my entire point was to tell you that "objective conjecture" doesn't exist. By definition, based on the evidence available to us all, you cannot claim to be objective and come to the conclusion that they are no longer together as inadequate information to come to that conclusion yet.

As for Zenkichi, I'm very happy to see him grow out of being so one dimensional! I think we would agree on that. As for the discussion though, what I did see (and I did read it) were people challenging you and you constantly fighting under the banner of being: "Objective" despite others protests to the contrary. I am not saying your statements are not well-reasoned. I am also not saying your arguments are not or cannot be grounded and or inferred based on much of the source material, but by definition it is conjecture and is therefore not objective.

EDIT: Okay, y'know what, I personally have fallen into the trap where my own tone has become somewhat condescending and that's not right. I've made some edits to correct that. The main point of this, Sol, is when you make claims that you are being "Objective!" with your analysis and that you have reached "Objective" conclusions .. by definition your statement means that you have derived an absolute truth. You may very well be correct, but to be honest, you might also not be. Premature and needless claims of objectivity disallows any other attempts to disagree with you because then they are simply "not being objective" .. when it could be, maybe, possible that you were not being objective in the first place.

tl;dr -- "Objective" indicates an absolute truth free of bias, external influence and ultimately not open to other interpretations. Claiming it is claiming the summit of the mountain and being unyielding.
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Last edited by willx; 2013-03-19 at 17:32. Reason: For self-reflection
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:27   Link #12933
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Yeah, my entire point was to tell you that "objective conjecture" doesn't exist. You got it! Go look up the definition of objective and conjecture! By definition, based on the evidence available to us all, you cannot claim to be objective and come to the conclusion that they are no longer together!

You cannot make an objective conjecture. You can come to an objective conclusion.. but there is inadequate information to come to that conclusion yet.
So what is probabilistic logic then? You take a conclusion which has an objective chance of being true...and then you make further extrapolations based off of it.

My statement that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship in its present form is over was a logical conclusion, not a conjecture. You can objectively ascertain that the basis of Medaka's attachment to Zenkichi was emotional dependency. You can objectively ascertain that Zenkichi grew out of the devotion which enabled it. You can objectively correlate this to Medaka's reaction of saying "goodbye". Thereby you can reach the logical conclusion that their relationship as it had existed for 14 years was over. All of that is stuff which is assertable, and arguable, under objective grounds.

Quote:
As for Zenkichi, I'm very happy to see him grow out of being so one dimensional! You don't have to follow someone around just because you love them. Just because you seperate from someone doesn't mean to stop loving them. Seeing a character grow is quite heartwarming. As for the discussion though, what I did see (and I did read it) were people challenging you and you constantly fighting under the banner of being: "Objective" despite others protests to the contrary.
But you yourself just admitted that it's possible to make objective conclusions. Conclusions are based on known information, i.e. the published source material thus far. Predictions as to the future of Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship were conjecture, certainly, but the basis (i.e. the part I told you was objective) was logical conclusions based on established source material.

Do you disagree that analyzing established source material objectively is possible?


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
EDIT: Okay, y'know what, I personally have fallen into the trap where my own tone has become somewhat condescending and that's not right. I've made some edits to correct that. The main point of this, Sol, is when you make claims that you are being "Objective!" with your analysis and that you have reached "Objective" conclusions .. by definition your statement means that you have derived an absolute truth. You may very well be correct, but to be honest, you might also not be. Premature and needless claims of objectivity disallows any other attempts to disagree with you because then they are simply "not being objective" .. when it could be, maybe, possible that you were not being objective in the first place.

tl;dr -- "Objective" indicates an absolute truth free of bias, external influence and ultimately not open to other interpretations. Claiming it is claiming the summit of the mountain and being unyielding.
Objectivity is the goal, logic is the tool. I have never attempted to imply that my opinions represent the sole summit of universal truth, only that they are based on logic, grounded in evidence, and attempt to get at some measure of objectivity. It's for this reason that I have constantly welcomed other perspectives based on objective evidence, so that my arguments can be refined to more accurately reflect the truth. It is not arrogant to dismiss arguments based on subjective feelings, expectations, or conjectures in the face of objective evidence, nor is it arrogant to demand that that evidence be provided in the form of the source material.
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God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Best adorable shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-19 at 17:46.
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:49   Link #12934
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
So what is probabilistic logic then? You take a conclusion which has an objective chance of being true...and then you make further extrapolations based off of it.

My statement that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship in its present form is over was a logical conclusion, not a conjecture. You can objectively ascertain that the basis of Medaka's attachment to Zenkichi was emotional dependency. You can objectively ascertain that Zenkichi grew out of the devotion which enabled it. You can objectively correlate this to Medaka's reaction of saying "goodbye". Thereby you can reach the logical conclusion that their relationship as it had existed for 14 years was over. All of that is stuff which is assertable, and arguable, under objective grounds.



But you yourself just admitted that it's possible to make objective conclusions. Conclusions are based on known information, i.e. the published source material thus far. Predictions as to the future of Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship were conjecture, certainly, but the basis (i.e. the part I told you was objective) was logical conclusions based on established source material.

Do you disagree that analyzing established source material objectively is possible?
Conlusions based on lack of evidence aren't objective that's essentially his point, they may end up ultimately correct or not but they're pretty far from being objective. It's practically impossible to have an objective conclusion that isn't completely confirm by a fact, since all conlusion will be in come way affect by a person's past experiences, beliefs and personality. It's simply a sliding scale. In the absense of evidence the most logical, objective conclusion would be acceptance of multiple scenario's personal bias will determine which scanerio each individual person favours but ultimately the lack of a stating a specific scenario as correct woud be the most objective positon
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Old 2013-03-19, 17:57   Link #12935
Lupus753
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Shipping: several brick walls arguing with each other.

All these rolling eye smilies are getting on my nerves. Maybe that's why the word 'arrogant' gets thrown around a lot.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:04   Link #12936
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Objectivity is the goal, logic is the tool. I have never attempted to imply that my opinions represent the sole summit of universal truth, only that they are based on logic, grounded in evidence, and attempt to get at some measure of objectivity. It's for this reason that I have constantly welcomed other perspectives based on objective evidence, so that my arguments can be refined to more accurately reflect the truth. It is not arrogant to dismiss arguments based on subjective feelings, expectations, or conjectures in the face of objective evidence, nor is it arrogant to demand that that evidence be provided in the form of the source material.
I don't think you actually understand, like at all, you do not do not dismiss a person's arguement based on your personal logic which is basically an interpretation of a scenario. Fact of the matter is there's is nothing logical about logic, logic is something we see in our everyday lives to be correct that doesn't mean it's always correct, the only reason things seem logical is because that's all we've ever known. For example quantum physics takes a massive crap and everything priorly believed to be logical, it is also believed to be the very founding blocks of our universe. That is why you don't dismiss things based on logic, since logic is based on limited understanding. The only way to dismiss an arguement is to empirically prove it to be incorrect, this is ignoring whether the answer you acquire is completely logical or not.

This is the issues scientists face, we're talking about a story. There's not such thing as an concrete objective interpretation of a story. YOU WILL NEVER COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND A STORY. The only person that would understand all the ins and outs of a story and what every single part of it means is the author. Since you can never completely understand another human you will never be able to completely understand the work of person that can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. There is simply probable scenario's, these things aren't absolute, they're not even remotely near absolute. The author could kill off all character next chapter and start with a new set of characters. The author could do thousands of different things within a story because a story is only limited by a persons imagination. A person's imagination is something you don't completely understand and probably never will.

So you can't dismiss another person's interpretation of a possible outcome of a story like that, because that in itself is not logical. The story itself doesn't have to be logical either and in many case it already isn't. There are no set rules within a story, ultimarely it's all down to the author's imagination, everything else is determined by that.

This is a concept you can't seem to grasp hence the recurring arguments.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-19 at 18:14.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:14   Link #12937
Sol Falling
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I'll ask you a question: under what standard do people judge what is considered "good writing"? That is the standard which I am applying to this story, and pretty much any other which I respect. Frankly, the Medaka Box fanbase is the only one which has ever given me shit for attempting to do so, I can only think that says something about the audience.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:26   Link #12938
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'll ask you a question: under what standard do people judge what is considered "good writing"? That is the standard which I am applying to this story, and pretty much any other which I respect. Frankly, the Medaka Box fanbase is the only one which has ever given me shit for attempting to do so, I can only think that says something about the audience.
See that's the fundametal issue, what is considered good writing varies from person to person, there is no universal standard, all we have is common consensus (popular opinion), the author himself will not completely understand this common consensus otherwise most stories would be considered near works of art. Rarely does an author writes something that he himself considers bad, mediocre maybe but if he's planning on making a living on it he won't do plot point he consider to be outright bad.

Stories as a whole are grey area's as ultimately a good or bad story to you comes down to whether you liked or appreciated the story or not. That like in itself comes from your own personal bias. So in essence common consensus is common bias. Also you can get flak from most stories fanbases, it's most apparant when you compare two stories together and then make a conclusion choosing on or another.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:34   Link #12939
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
See that's the fundametal issue, what is considered good writing varies from person to person, there is no universal standard, all we have is common consensus (popular opinion), the author himself will not completely understand this common consensus otherwise most stories would be considered near works of art. Rarely does an author writes something that he himself considers bad, mediocre maybe but if he's planning on making a living on it he won't do plot point he consider to be outright bad.

Stories as a whole are grey area's as ultimately a good or bad story to you comes down to whether you liked or appreciated the story or not. That like in itself comes from your own personal bias. So in essence common consensus is common bias.
If there were no understandable standard for what could be meant by "good writing", nobody would use the term. The fact that people exist who consider "good writing" a thing means that there's some commonly understood meaning for it. Now try to guess what it is.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:37   Link #12940
ccie20012
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My 5 cents. I believe that it is impossible to make a prediction using only the text of the manga. As from inside of the system.
Example:
Based on the previous arc - we can predict the death of the main characters or absence of Medaka.
It is absolutely clear predict from words of characters, events and the like.
but! Wrong (from an "objective" point of view) to assume that Nishino can write any plot development. In the experience of previous one arc is objectively clear that Nishino will not do things that will shock readers ("typical" readers) Such as - the death of the main characters, break of a main pair, and the like.
I apologize for my english - I'm always trying to write clear, but I am afraid that it does not work for me.
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