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Old 2013-03-19, 08:33   Link #741
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
I'm a bit confused here. Are you talking about the elementary school championship or continuing karuta beyond that?
His only reason to play beyond the elementary school championship was because of Chihaya.
Taichi got into playing karuta because of Chihaya and Arata. Taichi continued to play karuta after elementary school in middle school. He said this himself in the 4th episode.

He told Chihaya he was no longer interested in that same episode but later on when he talks to Harada Sensei we learn the crux of the reason

"No matter how long I play I will never be as good as Arata".

Initially he joined the team and continued playing only because of his feelings for Chihaya but I don't think Chihaya is the only thing that matters to him about karuta.


Quote:
When you watch their first "team" match, Taichi was perplexed as to why Chihaya cared so much losing to Arata (ie. he was uninterested for a while, but was inspired by her despite her futile attempts vs Arata).
His actions mirrored quite similarly to Sumire, except that he got interested quicker than Sumire's.
No you misunderstand this scene. Taichi was perplexed why Chihaya was trying so hard against Arata when Arata was so much better than them. This comes down to what his mother said to only play games you can win.

Even though Taichi still didn't completely understand, he was happy when he got a card and blushed when Arata praised him.

Chihaya is a part of karuta for Taichi but it is only one part.

So I don't agree that Sumire and Taichi are exactly the same. Sumire had no interest in karuta when she joined. Although to Sumire's credit despite her claims she still has no interest I think it is obvious that she now does beyond Taichi.

Because a character not interested in Karuta well that doesn't work in Chihayafuru.



Quote:
Regarding the Taichi love karuta argument (not really saying this as a for or an against), there's a definitely a difference between Arata/Chihaya's view on karuta vs Taichi's:
Taichi:

Arata's text to Chihaya (who actually lost the match):

Of course, I'm sure by the end of the story (or maybe even before that), Taichi will come out and go "well actually, I did have fun, after all!"
Although those two scenes were said completely in different contexts, I agree with you that Taichi does not have fun when he loses, he can't because he still thinks that loss is too important.

I don't think that is the same as loving or not loving karuta though. And I actually think Taichi does love karuta because it is something he has to put effort into. I think this is important to Taichi.

I guess my main issue is the idea that only Taichi is outside Karuta in the series and he is different from everyone else. I think certainly Taichi has more growth and development when it comes to karuta and he doesn't understand everything but to say only Taichi is outside and everyone is inside, well no I don't agree.
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Old 2013-03-19, 11:17   Link #742
hyperborealis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Didn't Kanade associate Taichi with a poem back in season 1? I can't remember if the poem was part of a card or not, though (but then again, Taichi, himself, has not listed any cards he associates himself with).
It was the episode where Taichi got all possessive protective over Chihaya for handing over her cell number/email to some random guy.
(Kanade also called all the members nincompoop, as well )
Quadratic is absolutely correct. This is the scene where Kana realizes Taichi is in love with Chihaya. Kana then is reminded of two cards: #40 & #41, two love poems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
A promo image for this season had Taichi holding a specific card, not sure if it's the same card.
#40 is the Shinoburedo card, which already belongs to Shinobu; so, it fits that the promo image has Taichi holding #41.

Taichi does have a card or a pair of cards associated with him, after all. Thank you for the reminders! Suetsugu fits Taichi into the world of the poems, as a lover whose love cannot be hidden.

I still maintain, though, that we don't know that Taichi loves karuta. Wondering just what it means to "love" karuta in the first place, I thought Arya's comments were extremely illuminating:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya View Post
What Taichi solved thanks to Karuta? Nothing. He loves a girl who doesn't see him at all and he has a friend whom he can't be fully friend with. Love for chihaya was what made him play Karuta seriously (so I think), but at the same time it's like love is what stops him progressing in Karuta and his other issues. Because Karuta can't solve it like it did with his friends. But somehow it's working in the opposite direction of other people. He is not good playing Karuta, he loves a girl who doesn't love him and can't be friend with a boy because of this whole mess. He is losing on each front, game, friendship and love.
Taichi is a divided person. Karuta, love, and friendship are all working at cross-purposes. But take by contrast Chihaya. For her, everything is in synch: her friends, her team, her goal of becoming queen, her talents--they all combine seamlessly. So, I think what it means to love karuta is to be in this state of perfect harmony, where one's nature and one's actions and goals are all in harmony and accord. When Chihaya says she loves karuta, or that she is having fun, she is saying she is experiencing this congruity between herself and what she is doing. That is why she can have fun even when she loses; the sense of harmony is there, the pain of loss notwithstanding.

As yet, Taichi is not in this state of flow, and so as yet, he does not love karuta, and as yet, he remains outside karuta.

----

Blaat, Nishida expresses his love for karuta in episode 8, where he notices just how much Chihaya likes to play, and connects her feeling to what he himself had felt when he was young.

As far as I know, Nishida doesn't have a card associated with him.

----

This week's title poem is #87. Here is Mostow's translation:

" While the raindrops of
the passing shower have not yet dried from
" near the leaves of the evergreens,
the mist is already rising, on
this evening in autumn.

This is a beautiful, descriptive poem, that perfectly captures the rain, the season, and the time of day in which this episode takes place.
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Old 2013-03-19, 12:20   Link #743
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
As yet, Taichi is not in this state of flow, and so as yet, he does not love karuta, and as yet, he remains outside karuta.
I still disagree with this. It's not so much that I don't think Taichi has more to learn and embrace about karuta. But he does love the sport just as much as the others.

In fact I don't think you are just doing a disservice to Taichi here with this assessment but all the characters.

You are basically saying only Taichi has room to grow to love Karuta but everyone else is fully there and have no room for character growth. Taichi has personal flaws he has to overcome which do affect his karuta but so do the other characters.

For example I will be interested to see where the story takes Komano who seems to have given up being better than the others and instead wants to guide the team through his analytics (but is this truly the best course for him. Can he still not grow as a player?) Has Komano fully embraced everything about karuta either? And this is just one example.
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Old 2013-03-19, 12:44   Link #744
hyperborealis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I still disagree with this. It's not so much that I don't think Taichi has more to learn and embrace about karuta. But he does love the sport just as much as the others.
He has not said so, he has not thought so, although other characters regularly say so and think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
In fact I don't think you are just doing a disservice to Taichi here with this assessment but all the characters.
Really? I thought I was adding precision to what the show means when someone says they "love" karuta. I also thought I was providing a more precise understanding of Taichi's character, and how he is individually different from the other characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
You are basically saying only Taichi has room to grow to love Karuta but everyone else is fully there and have no room for character growth. Taichi has personal flaws he has to overcome which do affect his karuta but so do the other characters.
This is true only if you assume character growth is only along the axis of increasing love for karuta. But that is your assumption, not mine. As you point out, it's untrue, but that is not my mistake.
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Old 2013-03-19, 13:46   Link #745
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
He has not said so, he has not thought so, although other characters regularly say so and think so.
Except the other character do not regularly think and say so and I am not even sure if every character has actually said these lines. I think you are assuming too much on one line.



Quote:
Really? I thought I was adding precision to what the show means when someone says they "love" karuta. I also thought I was providing a more precise understanding of Taichi's character, and how he is individually different from the other characters.
All the characters are different but they are all connected by karuta and this includes Taichi. It also includes Sumire who says she doesn't care about karuta but still cut her nails and still tried to grab the card quickly.

Different characters bring different skills, have different reasons for playing, and have different reasons for being inspired by karuta.

But you are not just saying Taichi is different but that ONLY he is not connected to karuta like everyone else. That everyone else loves and understands karuta except Taichi.

Quote:
This is true only if you assume character growth is only along the axis of increasing love for karuta. But that is your assumption, not mine. As you point out, it's untrue, but that is not my mistake.

I don't assume increasing love is the only way to show character growth but this series is about karuta. Karuta is the way the manga-ka is developing her characters through understanding, love, and growth as players.

Again I think you are putting two little credence on when Taichi says "I want to be someone who doesn't run away". Karuta gives him that chance. To me he doesn't need to say the words "I love karuta". Karuta is important to Taichi because it helps him grow into the person he wants to be. It's karuta that gave him that chance.

However maybe he has not said those exact words because he is still working on getting there.

I don't know what the final message for Taichi (or any of the characters will be) but I think karuta is an important part of all of them.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:11   Link #746
SeijiSensei
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/inte...ppear-in-manga

It's now over US$1,000 so it's a bit rich for my blood.
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Old 2013-03-19, 18:19   Link #747
sikvod00
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^ Wow, that is crazy!
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Old 2013-03-19, 19:08   Link #748
karice67
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I...wouldn't try, can't afford that at present! But that is insane!

-----
On the Taichi debate...

My word...deja vu or what!

Personally, my view hasn't changed much since back then: what Taichi wants to do with karuta, what the game means to him, still isn't clearly defined. In that sense, I agree with hyperborealis. But on the other hand, he has moved slightly in the direction of 'playing karuta for himself', and I expect he will keep moving in this direction as the show goes on.

Kirarakim, I am getting the same impression as I was last year: that your defense of Taichi borders on being ultra-positive, ignoring certain aspects of his struggle. That's not to say that the others don't have their own struggles, but each of them is different. I would argue that whilst Chihaya's struggle, as we see it now, is predominantly about trying to reach Shinobu and Arata's level, Taichi's is largely about how he is connected to karuta, what karuta means to him. It definitely doesn't mean the same thing to him as it does to Chihaya and Arata. 'Love' is quite an easy word to throw around, but what does that actually mean vis-a-vis karuta in Taichi's case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
For example I will be interested to see where the story takes Komano who seems to have given up being better than the others and instead wants to guide the team through his analytics (but is this truly the best course for him. Can he still not grow as a player?) Has Komano fully embraced everything about karuta either? And this is just one example.
Hm...Komano's reaction in that scene with Sumire suggested to me that he actually did want to play, but was putting the team first...
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Last edited by karice67; 2013-03-19 at 20:26.
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Old 2013-03-19, 21:50   Link #749
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
It definitely doesn't mean the same thing to him as it does to Chihaya and Arata. 'Love' is quite an easy word to throw around, but what does that actually mean vis-a-vis karuta in Taichi's case?
I never said karuta means the same thing to Taichi as it does for Chihaya & Arata.

Taichi wasn't being compared to Arata and Chihaya in this case he was being compared to everyone in the series. That only Taichi does not love karuta and is outside it. This is what I had an issue with.

Do I think Taichi has the same passion for karuta as Arata & Chihaya (well no, at least not at this point in the story). But I do think karuta is important to Taichi and it is not just because he is in love with Chihaya. Nor do I think Taichi is the only one who doesn't get karuta.

Yes there are certain things about karuta, Taichi still doesn't get. But he isn't the only one still learning these things.

Quote:
I am getting the same impression as I was last year: that your defense of Taichi borders on being ultra-positive, ignoring certain aspects of his struggle.
I don't think I ignore Taichi's struggles at all. I realize Taichi has flaws that he needs to over come (just recently I said Taichi projects his own worries & inferiority complex on Chihaya). Besides an inferiority complex I think Taichi is jealous and his issues largely stem from the fact that he himself is afraid to tell Chihaya how he feels (he is the only one to blame for how he feels). I also agreed that Taichi can't be happy with losing because he puts too much weight on winning.

However his flaws are definitely made worse than they are by some people here so if I respond in an ultra positive way it is because of that.

To be fair I don't think Hyperborealis was bashing Taichi or dislikes Taichi at all. But I did think the interpretation had an overly negative context and that is what I was responding to. I don't think Hyperborealis saw it as negative but I do. The idea that Taichi is outside karuta doesn't just separate him from Chihaya and Arata but from all the other characters in the series and I don't believe that is what the manga-ka is trying to say with his character.

Quote:
Hm...Komano's reaction in that scene with Sumire suggested to me that he actually did want to play, but was putting the team first...
Yes he wants to play but he thinks he is not going to reach a higher level and that is why he put the team first. While it was admirable what he did, is that type of sacrifice really the right thing to do?

Admittedly I could be wrong here and maybe Komano made the right decision and it will be interesting to see what Nishida says next week.
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Old 2013-03-20, 01:34   Link #750
Quadratic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Taichi got into playing karuta because of Chihaya and Arata. Taichi continued to play karuta after elementary school in middle school. He said this himself in the 4th episode.

He told Chihaya he was no longer interested in that same episode but later on when he talks to Harada Sensei we learn the crux of the reason
"No matter how long I play I will never be as good as Arata".

Initially he joined the team and continued playing only because of his feelings for Chihaya but I don't think Chihaya is the only thing that matters to him about karuta.
Ok, we aren't quite talking about the same thing.
I'm not denying he continued afterwards (or what motivated him to continue playing), but you disagreed that he started to play karuta (only?) because of Chihaya, which I believe he did.
When you consider that Taichi ostracised Arata from the entire classmates he had little reason to associate himself with Arata, other than because Chihaya kept associating herself with him.
Just to note, I'm not holding this against him (starting because of Chihaya), because Chihaya started because of Arata.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
No you misunderstand this scene. Taichi was perplexed why Chihaya was trying so hard against Arata when Arata was so much better than them. This comes down to what his mother said to only play games you can win.
Not quite sure what you said that's different to what I said, other than you think that Taichi was interested in the game right from the start?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
So I don't agree that Sumire and Taichi are exactly the same. Sumire had no interest in karuta when she joined. Although to Sumire's credit despite her claims she still has no interest I think it is obvious that she now does beyond Taichi.
Well, that's why I made sure I wrote "similarly" instead of "exactly"
But what I believe is that he originally thought he could play casually (which I maintain is like Sumire, except that he changed his tune really quickly).


To be fair (because it's starting to turn back into a Taichi bashing thread ), none of Chihaya's current happiness could have been possible without Taichi.
In many ways, his "outside" experience (regardless of whether it's true or not) is the reason why the team is functional.
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Old 2013-03-20, 02:18   Link #751
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I never said karuta means the same thing to Taichi as it does for Chihaya & Arata.
I wasn't trying to imply that you had. That first statement was just a supporting statement for what I'd written before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Taichi wasn't being compared to Arata and Chihaya in this case he was being compared to everyone in the series. That only Taichi does not love karuta and is outside it. This is what I had an issue with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
To be fair I don't think Hyperborealis was bashing Taichi or dislikes Taichi at all. But I did think the interpretation had an overly negative context and that is what I was responding to. I don't think Hyperborealis saw it as negative but I do. The idea that Taichi is outside karuta doesn't just separate him from Chihaya and Arata but from all the other characters in the series and I don't believe that is what the manga-ka is trying to say with his character.
I thought that hyperborealis brought it up in the context of the three of them being main characters: Taichi is the only one of the three who hasn't clearly shown that he 'loves' karuta (for whatever reason). I don't think hyperborealis claimed that all other characters clearly had a scene showing that they 'love' karuta for itself, but merely pointed out that it's strange that Taichi hasn't, given that so many side characters have.

In other words, the kind of love for karuta that hyperborealis is talking about is the very specific kind of loving karuta for its own sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
This is all evidence that in some sense Taichi is outside karuta. Karuta is the place where everything else that is important to him happens--Chihaya, becoming someone who does not run away, connecting with his childhood friends, finding independence from his mother, becoming a good leader for the Mizusawa team. But karuta itself and for its own sake is not what is important for Taichi.
My own position differs slightly, and is not much changed from what it was a year ago. To me, what separates Taichi from Arata and Chihaya (and some of the other characters) is that he has yet to fully understand the importance of karuta to himself. This issue is manifested in his inferiority complex, which often has him comparing himself to Chihaya and Arata, and which I think is a negative way for him to frame his relationship to the game. Actually figuring out what karuta means for him should help him frame it in a more positive way, and perhaps to say that he truly loves the game, no matter what happens (rather than just feeling really happy when he wins).

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I don't think I ignore Taichi's struggles at all. *snip* However his flaws are definitely made worse than they are by some people here so if I respond in an ultra positive way it is because of that.
True, your argument looks a lot more balanced with all that laid out.

---

I'm definitely looking forward to it plays out next week... (if only because I have skimmed the corresponding scene in the manga and am not very sure how to interpret it... )
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Old 2013-03-20, 03:22   Link #752
LeoXiao
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Watching the first season of this. I love it. Great art, great characters, great idea. Memorization is an art I hold dear, so nice of them to make an anime about it.
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Old 2013-03-20, 04:23   Link #753
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Watching the first season of this. I love it. Great art, great characters, great idea. Memorization is an art I hold dear, so nice of them to make an anime about it.
Another one joins the fold, welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Blaat, Nishida expresses his love for karuta in episode 8, where he notices just how much Chihaya likes to play, and connects her feeling to what he himself had felt when he was young.

As far as I know, Nishida doesn't have a card associated with him.
That episode was an anime filler and is not in the manga. Suetsugu hasn't written a scene in which Nishida has professed his love for karuta nor does Nishida have a single card associated with him. So Taichi isn't alone, Nishida is there with him.

One of the big similarities between Nishida and Taichi is that they bother prefer the competitive aspect of the game as revealed during the first episode of the second season (Taichi wanted focus on the Mejin/Queen qualifiers and Nishida on the highschool tournament). Is that the message, if you only like competitive karuta you don't love it?
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Old 2013-03-20, 08:42   Link #754
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Ok, we aren't quite talking about the same thing.
I'm not denying he continued afterwards (or what motivated him to continue playing), but you disagreed that he started to play karuta (only?) because of Chihaya, which I believe he did.
When you consider that Taichi ostracised Arata from the entire classmates he had little reason to associate himself with Arata, other than because Chihaya kept associating herself with him.
Just to note, I'm not holding this against him (starting because of Chihaya), because Chihaya started because of Arata.
I think we were talking about different things hence why we misunderstood each other.

As for what you said about Taichi starting to play as a child because of Chihaya bringing him into the game well that might be true. Actually I think both Chihaya and Arata inspired Taichi to start playing karuta, but it was Chihaya who brought Taichi to Arata. It was Chihaya who started the friendship between the 3 of them.

However I think it is important to note that Taichi did continue to play karuta in middle school. I am not sure how much time he put into it (certainly not as much as Chihaya) but it was a choice he made to play karuta even then and it seems the only reason he stopped was that inferiority complex of his.

So I think when people say that Taichi only started to play karuta because he was in love with Chihaya is slighly false, it's more that he started to become serious about it because of his love for Chihaya but I think there was an interest always there.


Quote:
Not quite sure what you said that's different to what I said, other than you think that Taichi was interested in the game right from the start?
Again I think we were just misunderstanding each other. I wasn't really counting when they were kids or how he was introduced to karuta (Chihaya and Arata). I mean obviously you have to be introduced somehow. I was saying he was interested in karuta before they formed that team in high school.


Quote:
Well, that's why I made sure I wrote "similarly" instead of "exactly"
But what I believe is that he originally thought he could play casually (which I maintain is like Sumire, except that he changed his tune really quickly).
And I am not saying they have no similarities: they are both experiencing unrequited love at the moment and that motivated them to join the team. But I don't think Taichi only got into karuta because of love.

As for Sumire she joined the team because of a crush on Taichi but I think her feelings might be developing into something more and I think she is starting to become interested in karuta for its own sake despite her claims to the contrary.




Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67
In other words, the kind of love for karuta that hyperborealis is talking about is the very specific kind of loving karuta for its own sake.
Perhaps this is the type of love characters like Arata, Chihaya, and the Queen have but I don't think this is the reason every character besides Taichi loves karuta (and only he does not understand it) and I feel that was implied by hyperborealis' post. That is what I was responding to.

I am also not saying that it is not significant that Taichi has not said those words yet but it is not because he doesn't love karuta and it isn't a part of him but because he doesn't fully realize it himself. So hence I actually agree with what you wrote below:

Quote:
My own position differs slightly, and is not much changed from what it was a year ago. To me, what separates Taichi from Arata and Chihaya (and some of the other characters) is that he has yet to fully understand the importance of karuta to himself. This issue is manifested in his inferiority complex, which often has him comparing himself to Chihaya and Arata, and which I think is a negative way for him to frame his relationship to the game. Actually figuring out what karuta means for him should help him frame it in a more positive way, and perhaps to say that he truly loves the game, no matter what happens (rather than just feeling really happy when he wins).
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Old 2013-03-22, 16:13   Link #755
Blaat
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The bromance was strong in this one.

Solid episode, it had some genuine funny moments (Sudo holding the banner and Chihaya using all her will power in accepting going as second in the line up). Anyway I can't believe we're already in semi-final but hopefully it looks like we're finally going to have a serious tense multi episode spanning caruta match.

Also am I the only one who wants to see a Desktomu as Sherlock Holmes and Nishida as Watson omake? Or fan art. Desktomu's deduction reasoning is rather impressive.
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Old 2013-03-22, 16:29   Link #756
SeijiSensei
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I thought the reason for Tsutomu's sitting out was going to be an advantage due to handedness after Chihaya's comment, but it turned out to be exhaustion from covering the matches. He really is quite a bright kid.
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Old 2013-03-22, 16:29   Link #757
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Good episode for two characters who haven't been in the spotlight as much. All the little notes that appear around characters this episode were also pretty funny.("Empress's jacket of love ) Sumire's notes end up being sorta useful (as I thought) though probably not as useful as Tsutomu's hard-core analysis of every possible flaw and pattern in each player's playstyle. Chihaya should definitely have a hard time against Megumu and it's probably gonna end up being another close match.
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Old 2013-03-22, 16:30   Link #758
SeijiSensei
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Next week's match could be the one where Chihaya loses, but Misuzawa has to win and play the rematch against Hokuo. Otherwise it would an enormous disappointment.
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Old 2013-03-22, 16:51   Link #759
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Age: 28
Great episode putting emphasis on the bond between the second years. The end of the previous episode was very misleading. Nishida actually wanted Tsutomu to play more than anything else. It pained him to see him relegated to a supporting role and he was afraid he'd get stuck in it and lose his drive to play.

That said, Tsutomi is truly amazing at gathering intel and analyzing it, so he definitely shouldn't give that up entirely. His advices proved to be very useful in this week's match.

Chihaya displayed some growth in this episode. She managed to restrain her desire to play against a strong opponent in order to improve the team's chances of victory. In the end, she still got what she wanted thanks to Taichi, but her gesture was appreciated. Next week, her skills will truly be put to the test for the first time in this tournament. It will be tough to beat Megumu.

PS: pouting Kana was super cute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourIdeas View Post
All the little notes that appear around characters this episode were also pretty funny.("Empress's jacket of love )
I've always loved those little notes. I'm grateful they kept them in the anime adaptation.
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Old 2013-03-22, 18:04   Link #760
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Wow, Kana actually knows how to use her feminine wiles. She's dangerous.

I don't know how much Tsutomu observed, and how much he got from interviews with other teams.
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