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Old 2013-03-16, 08:18   Link #32041
battle22
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Was reading EP2. It feels so strange that Gohda is defending Shannon so strongly, when they try to lie that 'Kanon' attacked and 'killed' Kumasawa and Nanjo. Gohda, along with Genji and Rosa are accomplices. Could Yasu threatened them with the bomb? That would probably make sense. But still, Gohda tried to defend Shannon too hard, unless of course he did it to win over her heart. Come to think of it, Gohda does that a lot with the siblings. Oh this might make sense.
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Old 2013-03-17, 12:22   Link #32042
tantei okuoku
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It is not like witches were not hinted at in higurashi. they were just never explicitly called witches. I mean Rika does actually seem like a witch to me.

So for umineko it's a question of what you thing was hinted at but was not really dived into.
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Old 2013-03-18, 02:14   Link #32043
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantei okuoku View Post
It is not like witches were not hinted at in higurashi. they were just never explicitly called witches. I mean Rika does actually seem like a witch to me.

So for umineko it's a question of what you thing was hinted at but was not really dived into.
Well, in Saikoroshi-hen, at least the VN, the dimension hopping part of Rika, Frederica Bernkastel, was actually called a witch. So in a way he only took that concept a step further by creating the whole alcove of witches in Umineko. Still at certain points it seems a little strained.
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Old 2013-03-18, 16:35   Link #32044
magnum12
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Some things about the whole
Spoiler for spoilers for last two novels:
bug me. Due to the context of their presentation, the theory to me simply stinks of "red fish", the kind that would go good with a lemon wedge and a side of fries. Might as well just bring out my theories regarding it. Have fun.

Spoiler for spoiler for last two novels:


Spoiler for spoiler for 8th novel:


Spoiler for spoiler for 8th novel:


Spoiler for spoilers for 3rd and 8th novel:
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:04   Link #32045
Golden Bug-Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnum12 View Post
Some things about the whole
Spoiler for spoilers for last two novels:
bug me. Due to the context of their presentation, the theory to me simply stinks of "red fish", the kind that would go good with a lemon wedge and a side of fries. Might as well just bring out my theories regarding it. Have fun.
My understanding is that this theory was something Ryukishi included because it was so popular on the message boards at the time. It was acknowledged as the theory most commonly believed by readers, hence so many goats embracing it. My knowledge of Japanese is weak, though, so I can't confirm that.

Quote:
Spoiler for spoiler for last two novels:
Well...

Spoiler:


Quote:
Spoiler for spoiler for 8th novel:


Spoiler for spoiler for 8th novel:
so, to combine those two theories, you're suggesting...

Spoiler:


Quote:
Spoiler for spoilers for 3rd and 8th novel:
Spoiler:


So, my idea for putting the pieces together goes something like this...

Spoiler for My theory about Prime:
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:42   Link #32046
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
So, my idea for putting the pieces together goes something like this...

Spoiler for My theory about Prime:
What about the bit about Eva's diary being the truth? It COULD be that it was truth in that it was what she believed (i.e. Gold Truth), or maybe she only placed in her diary the scenes she saw directly? The events might have just strongly suggested Rudolf/Kyrie as culprits, but I think the thought of her not pouring her own interpretations into the diary is a bit of a stretch.

I agree with the rest though.
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Old 2013-03-20, 01:03   Link #32047
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Well I mean honestly,

Spoiler:


Of course, there are still things that I haven't figured out even after getting this far.

The biggest one is...

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-03-20, 19:03   Link #32048
magnum12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post

Spoiler:


Spoiler:

Not exactly what I meant. I'll reword my thoughts regarding that top one.

Spoiler for spoiler for 8th novel:


Regarding the second one.

Spoiler for theory on 3rd novel:


Come to think of it, I suspect that
Spoiler for spoiler for the 7th novel:
was actually foreshadowed as early as the 3rd novel.

Spoiler for theory for 3rd novel:


And now some theories regarding Bernkastel. Note that I use the mangas as my evidence.

Spoiler for theories about Bernkastel:
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Old 2013-03-22, 06:27   Link #32049
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Not been following the current discussion, but hopefully no one minds me bringing something else up. I've been rereading the series lately and the meta-narrative of EP4 really confuses me. I can't see how Ange's role in it can possibly have any meaning to anything, yet so much time is spent on Meta-Ange that I can't help but feel that Ryukishi must have written it for a reason.

I mean, I totally understand the point of all the scenes with Ange in 1998, as well as the ones covering her time at St. Lucia; they're both hugely important to the themes of the series, they both make perfect sense on a narrative level, and it's clear why they're there. But the parts with Ange in the meta-world don't make any sense to me. What's the point of the whole story about Ange coming to bring Battler back from the meta-world, and the conflict with her being deceived by Bern and then Lambda trying to get her on her side (which is never mentioned again despite the dramatic build-up and super tense music seeming to imply that it's a hugely important scene), and her realising that she isn't Ange but "ANGE Beatrice" and then not really doing much in the meta-world again until she randomly dies? I really don't get what Ryukishi was trying to say with this subplot; it can't possibly mean anything in terms of Prime, which is fine, but it also doesn't seem to serve to illustrate any thematic point either (aside from possibly the death scene I guess...but the whole thing with Bern and Lambda fighting over her still doesn't seem relevant). It feels so disconnected from everything else. How do you guys view these scenes?
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Old 2013-03-22, 07:13   Link #32050
cj_iwakura
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I agree. Ange had a lot of potential, but she felt largely wasted. She had some amazing scenes and a great backstory, but it mostly went nowhere, especially the backstory with her and her bodyguard. Was he meant to betray her, be her lover, both, what? We'll never know.
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Old 2013-03-22, 08:13   Link #32051
Renall
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It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. The only thing that really reconciles it is if there were other plans for the meta-world that got scrapped somewhere in the writing of Alliance or the transition into Chiru. The conflict that Meta-Ange believes exists does not exist at all anywhere else in the stories. While it kind of makes sense that Bern would pull an Ange of the future into the story, if we take Meta-Ange as somehow representative of an "actual" or "Prime" Ange, it doesn't make any sense that she'd believe that she can actually do anything to "save" her brother as such.

I mean, she already clearly realizes in the St. Lucia backstory that her family can't come back. Even if the Meta-Ange bits are read as some kind of faint hope of someone returning, they couldn't possibly return through any acts that Ange herself can actually take. And the whole idea of "well they might return to an Ange that isn't you" only makes sense in the context of Prime-Ange realizing that the family could be "saved" in a story but that this would not actually save anyone in her world. Which is obvious. I mean, Ange's not that dumb.

Regarding the other point, Amakusa was kind of like... what was his deal, anyway? Seriously he has essentially no purpose whatsoever in Chiru. He's basically a confused question dispenser for parts of Dawn and barely matters at all in Twilight.

For something that was such a huge chunk of Alliance, I just can't help but think the Ange stuff wasn't going to become what it eventually became and initially meant to set up something else that didn't get followed through on. Same thing with the Maria stuff. The Beatrice-Maria-Rosa dynamic is set up pretty strongly as a major thematic issue, but then Maria scarcely matters in any way until Requiem. And the themes about the Black Witch don't really follow through there either.
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Old 2013-03-22, 08:53   Link #32052
Wanderer
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I more or less see meta-Ange, at least as far as EP4 is concerned, as the concept of Ange as Touya sees her.

EP4 meta-Ange is all about EP8, IMHO.

Touya in 1998 became aware of Ange when she tried to contact him, and this was represented by Ange's introduction in EP3 and presence in EP4. It roused the "Battler" aspect that was lying within Touya. Then Ange's disappearance from public knowledge was metaphorically represented by her "hamburger" death at the end of EP4, which really roused Battler. From Ange's disappearance, "Battler" within Touya got a wake up call about how his fight with Beatrice really mattered, because he realized he may have lost his chance to contact Ange for the rest of his life.

As for Bern and Lambda, I see them as concepts before I see them as personalities. Bern's "tempting" Ange is a matter of Ange vainly hoping for something impossible. It's actually rooted in us humans ourselves to do so, and that natural temptation is merely projected and personified as Bern. Since that's Bern's role, Bern's motive is simply made to fit after the fact. On the other hand, it still fits. Bern wanted Battler to destroy Beatrice, and what better way to get Battler serious about that than to have his sister at stake?

As for being ANGE instead of Ange, I think it might have to do with the fact that she's a concept of Touya's rather than a real person, and the concept itself is showing some self-awareness. On the other hand, I also think it might have to do with Yukari becoming an author in the future. It's like being a witch means having the power to change perspectives, but not facts.

Just my thoughts...
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Old 2013-03-22, 14:36   Link #32053
Drifloon
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Huh, that's an interesting way to look at it. But still, what's up with Lambda's offer to let Ange stay with Battler forever by maintaining an eternal tie? That particular scene's stuck in my mind right now since I read it today.
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Old 2013-03-22, 15:37   Link #32054
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Huh, that's an interesting way to look at it. But still, what's up with Lambda's offer to let Ange stay with Battler forever by maintaining an eternal tie? That particular scene's stuck in my mind right now since I read it today.
Possibly it represents the temptation of Tohya to stay in these fantasies forever and forget reality.
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2013-03-22 at 16:32.
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Old 2013-03-22, 16:48   Link #32055
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I always imagined that Lambdadelta represented for Ange the same temptation it meant for Beatrice: To embrace her role as an 'Endless Witch.' Meta-World context aside, staying with Battler forever means contributing to the roll of Forgeries.
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Old 2013-03-22, 18:39   Link #32056
jjblue1
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Personally I would have liked Meta-Ange more if she had kept the characterization she had in Ep 4.
I mean at the end of Ep 4 she:
tried to keep her mind oper to other possibilities than the Eva culprit theory
acknowledged that if she had acted differently with Eva they could have had a better life
was willing to respect other people's beliefs
is willing to give up on the chance to stay forever with her brother
is willing to face the fact his family is dead.

In Ep 8 all this goes forgotten and she's all: Eva killed everyone and I want to stay here and I want the truth and everyone is mean because they don't give me what I want and I've not the patience to listen to your insane ranting big bro, who cares about what you believe, give me the truth and let me stay here.

Okay, so this is a slightly exaggerated version but you get the picture.
I would have preferred for her to quietly listen to Battler and then say: my bro has gotten insane if he believes that's what had happened but let's let him with his belief than to keep stomping foots and believing in Bern over his brother when Bern had turned her into an hamburger twice and enjoyed doing it not mentioning she had tried to marry her bro to Erika after trapping him in a logic error or how she had accused Natsuhi for the LOL of it.
Really the sort of person in which you want to believe.

I've been wondering about Bern and Lambda though.

Bern is the one who grant 'miracles' only when they've a chance of happening, tell her that basically there's no chance but lead her around in a dangerous/fatal way (she encouraged her to jump of a building).

Lambda promised her to let her stay forever with her brother, provided she'll help her fight against Bern and never allow Battler or Beato to win.

If you try to apply all of the above to the real world Bern represents a self destructing chase toward something that can't be reached.

Lambda represents the idea of continuing to be with a Battler within her (the real Ange won't be with Battler, just MetaAnge) provided she'll gave up on discovering the truth (solving Beato's mystery).
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Old 2013-03-23, 08:47   Link #32057
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I had an interesting thought about Ange, especially EP4 and EP8 Ange when rereading several scenes and comparing them to the manga. My idea right now is that technically Ange is a sympathetic Erika.

She is basically pushed towards the same goal as Erika and has similar doubts concerning love. While Erika doesn't care who the culprit is, Ange has her mind set towards one certain individual, but looking at the similarities in how they approach Beato and Battler's game it becomes clear that their idea of being able to gain something by solving it in their way is fueled by similar desperation. This also explains why it was Erika who fought alongside Ange as long as she was heading towards destroying the illusion.

I think that is also one of the things that makes Erika necessary, because it mirrors in a darker way what Ange was trying to achieve in EP4. In that sense Meta-Anges journey does not only show Touya's struggle but also that of Ange in 1998.
Her acceptance of Bern's offer showed her wish to wrench the solution out of the story that she wanted to see, in the desperate hope that it would lead her towards something more than she has now.
Lambda's offer showed her struggle when she went deeper, because it meant facing the danger of actually being left with nothing at all.
Her final resolve showed her acceptance of letting go of her hope for her brother to return just like that, which tortured her so much it was as hard as dying. She accepted continuing to live with happy memories, even if it killed the Ange that lived with her brother in an illusion.
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Old 2013-03-23, 17:21   Link #32058
jjblue1
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Interesting info from Ep 8 chap 6.

It was Beato who tattled out to the relatives that Kinzo was dead, so as to set them up against Natsuhi. It make me think she took them all as accomplices... only each couple didn't know about the other being Beato's accomplice.
It's again confirmed that Beato could have entered in Natsuhi's room regardless of the scorpion charm but, due to the setting, decided not to and merely wanted to scare her by painting her door (Lol she wore gloves and smeared all her door with red paint).

Wanderer already told us that the message in Ep 1 existed and that Natsuhi's gun was without bullets though it had powder inside so that it would make a discharged sound and have smoke coming out of it.

The discussion between Beato and Natsuhi is also a lot less forgiving in the beginning.
Beato confessed she had a lot of fun bullying Natsuhi but in the end she said that since she remembered her sin and she will have to carry its weight forever in the end things are settled and only after this she said she understand what Kinzo did was wrong and that she can symphatize with Natsuhi's circumstances.

On a corner of Natsuhi's door she even wrote an apology.

I think I've already described how Natsuhi and Beato hid in the wardrobe to escape Ange and Eva (in the manga they play hide and seek instead than quiz time) and that to lead them out Eva pretended trying to kill Ange, the whole thing a copy of how Hideyoshi was 'killed' in Ep 5 (even Beato observed this had already happened).

And we get an interesting bit about Rudolf tending to hide in the darkest corners of the house with a woman (maybe a servant?).

Again, Ep 8 manga version is way better than the novel as far as I'm involved...
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Old 2013-03-24, 03:43   Link #32059
Drifloon
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Hm, Beatrice and Natsuhi's discussion is slightly less heartwarming it sounds like. That's a shame.

All the adults except Krauss/Natsuhi being accomplices in EP1 was another thing I was pretty cetain about.
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Old 2013-03-24, 08:37   Link #32060
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Hm, Beatrice and Natsuhi's discussion is slightly less heartwarming it sounds like. That's a shame.

All the adults except Krauss/Natsuhi being accomplices in EP1 was another thing I was pretty cetain about.
Oh no, it gets heartwarming but it doesn't start so forgiving and 'oh, don't worry no big deal' as in the novel. Beato let's Natsuhi gets she was rather angry and bitter at her and wanted revenge on her... but then she looks like she's coming to terms with what Natsuhi had done to her. In short, she had her fun but Natsuhi admitted she hurt her and she's feeling guilty and she had her reasons so... she too can let it go.

If you ask me it's more touching, expecially for the moments in which you see how Beato would like for Natsuhi to also be her mom.

It's more... real as far as I'm involved. To have Beato wash it all away so effortlessly in the novel... it just didn't feel fitting, it reduced the whole of Yasu's drama and the pain she'd been put through.
It felt as if there was a huge gap between the Yasu of Ep 5, who's basically tormenting Natsuhi rather horribly, and the Beato of Ep 8 who's acting mature and comforting Natsuhi and shifting the blame on Kinzo.

I like for Beato to show her bitterness and then... show she's trying to get over it, that despite it she longed to build up a mother/child relation with Natsuhi.
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